Rehatnamas And Historic Sources Mentioning Gurgadhi Given To Sggs

[guruvah]

Matheen Boss,

SGGSji is Nirgun saroop of Satguru,

The lines from Sarbloh Granth doesnot mention that SGGSji would Never give Guruship in Future.

Dass suggest the admins of the forum to keep an eye on this user. :6 That is a very very very dodgy comment. :6

[Only five]

If the body of the ten gurus was not guru;How/Why GUru Nanak dev ji/Guru Arjun Dev ji/Guru Gobind singh ji went to sachkhand with their physical body. The Deh of Satguru is Itself a Bani. From their Roum Roum Naam/Anhad SHabad is Sung. SGGSji was Sargun Saroop of Satguru even when Guruship was Passed on to 5th Patshahis to 10th Patshahis and Sggsji is Still Satguru Saroop.

Deh is not Bani, if it was then Guru Nanak Dev ji would not call a person that worships idols blind and mute. Why do you think moorati worship is wrong in Sikhism. The same reason why the body disappeared so people cant disrepect it or fools can't start worshipping it(and start making idols that represent it). Guru Arjun Dev ji body disappeared because then fools can't disrespect it, same goes for Sri Guru Teg Bahudar Sahib ji(creamted). The body was respected(then by the Sikhs and now acknowledged) because that is what brought us to listen, speak, hear Gurbani. God's form is formless, so in which direction and where is the absolute body in which you worship. I'm guessing the Neeldhari sect for you.

My Question is:- Inorder to Kill Mughals and Papis, Akal Purakh took the Deh saroop of Guru Gobind SIngh ji, Don't you think in future also, Akal purakh would again take Deh Saroop of Satguru to Establish Humanity.

You're too hooked on dedhari Guru, and are trying to mislead others to start worshipping dedhari 'Gurus'. Akal Purakh himself can come down in a form again, but that will never have any affect on GuruShip, because Shabad Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has always been and always will be Guru. Go and run to tell your Dedhari Guru that. What will change when Akal Purakh takes form, nothing, Gurbani stays as is and eventually the form will leave and still it will be Gurbani as Guru.

And i donot think any religion tells us to insult people of other religions. It is only the few bad people in the every religion to who create that diff.

Last time I checked asking questions why Neeldhari don't do Anand Karaj around Guru Sahib is a question. You take it as a insult because of your attachment to falsehood.

WHen you bow to someone who is wearing complete Bana of Sikh maryada, You are giving respect to the BANA not to the person who is wearing it. Automatically Head Bows when you see a Nihang singh or a Gurumukh or Puran sant when they are in complete sikh maryada. I never told to bow Ram rahim or Bush FYI.

Bow your head to SGGSji always or Bow to those Gurmukhs and Mahapurash/Sant who bowed to SGGSji and believe SGGSji.

There is no or after bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. In the old days people bowed to elders out of respect, not to worship them as your Neeldhari sect does. Stop trying to mix the two to fit your agenda.

[Only five]

Akal Puruk would send somebody to destroy the evils and would not take birth himself....No sikh Guru was Akal Purukh himself...they are said to be the "roop of akal purukh"...!

Body is not Guru then what Guru did take birth and which Guru was/is apart of birth. It's contradicting statement to say Guru is not the body and then say they took birth and are not Akal Purakh.

[AmarjitKaur]

just to remind you guys, God is indescribeable. so you guys very likely won't reach to any conclusion. yeah, you wanna waste time arguing with each other instead of doing some chaupai sahib de path, your choice.

[humkire]

Mohinder pal , you wrote ‘I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Of course not! In Raag Basant , p.1192, SGGS, Guru Arjun Dev after mentioning various saints, concludes by saying… GUR NANAK DEV…. GOBIND RUP.Wah! Guru Nanak Dev is the roop of the Master of the Universe.

The sikhs of Gurus times did not spend their time looking at Gurujee’s face one moment and looking at a few lines of Gurbani in their hands the next moment, and confusedly try to work out which is the real Guru, face or words! They bowed before each Gurujee as the LIGHT passed from one form to another. What counted was that they worshipped the LIGHT/JOT/GURU as each of the ten forms manifested themselves. Since Guru Gobind Singh Jee, Sikhs have been worshipping SHREE GURU GRANTH SAHIB MAHARAJ as the nirgun and sargun roop of GURU.

A bunch of namdharees or any holy looking person, claiming to be Guru, trying to juggle bits of history here and there to suit themselves is not going to change that fact. You can engage in endless intellectual mind boggling debates abour nirgun and sargun roops of God and Guru, shift history to justify your claims and thrive on all sorts of theological arguments for clinging on to the need for a Guru in human form.

However, at the end of the day 3 undeniable facts stand out;

First, if you intelligently consider the birth and subsequent flourishing of Sikhi, in its various stages, under the 10 Gurus and nowadays under SGGS, and read mainstream books on Sikhi/ Sikh history by renowed personalities such as Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh/ Professor Puran Singh etc, it is apparent that the end of the eartly time of Guru Gobind Singh, in God’s gameplan, was the perfect time for SGGS to be the ‘ is all and be all’ Guru for Sikhs thereafter, without any further need for a human Guru. A community had been birthed, reared, nurtured, matured, taken through times of peace and danger, been taught how to adapt itself, fend for itself and progress on, on its own two feet getting its guidance from SGGS, and multiplying/regenerating itself copiously through Amrit Pahul from the Panj Pyaras. Infact we have kinda been ‘spoiled’ if we compare ourselves to christians and muslims who have no ‘Guru ‘ at all but refer to a historical jesus or mohamad who they hope is there for them in invisible form today, and have scriptures which are mainly historical and chronological in nature.

Secondly, the majority of Sikhs do indeed, accept SGGS as their GURU for all purposes, even if they may still not be baptised or inspired. So if you do have a problem with that, then you have a problem with God himself. Is it such that all these people worldwide which runs into millions upon millions from auckland in new zealand to singapore to borneo to europe and to USA are all a bunch of misguided fools compared to a handful of somehow better enlightened namdharees. I think not! I think the namdharees and their new ardent competitors, the neeldharees, need to start getting sensible and get back into the sikh fold and issue an ultimatum to their 2 gurus who vehemently hate each other to become missionaries for Sikhism and stop fuffing about as some supposed sargun gurus needed in today’s world.

This brings me to my third point. Sikhism is about empowerment, not enslavement. Where in the vastness of Sikh history and theology is there ordained that the sikhs shall be a people created to continously serve a guru in human form? Where does it say that anywhere from SGGS to DGGS to sarbloh granth etc. Infact, this contradicts all of Sikh history. Sikh history is about power to the people! That’s why Guru Nanak gave away even gurgaddi to bhai lehna, Guru Amardas appointed 22 preachers to get on with preaching, Guru Arjun let his principal Sikhs look after Harmandir Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh initiated the institution of Panj Pyaras and Amrit Phul as a hub for the further birth and multiplication of Sikhs without anymore needing to wash and drink the water of the feet of a human guru, and commissioned Banda Singh Bahadur to go to Punjab and continue on militant resistance there, apart from bestowing future Guruship to SGGS. Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the ahluwalias etc wrested control of Punjab etc from the muslims with the help of no human Guru.

Indeed, we have been created to be a resilient, self funded, independent community baptised by the sword and amrit of Guru Gobind Singh through the 5 pyaras, guided by SGGS whom we worship, adore, love, serve, obey and respect. We are perfectly capable of recasting ourselves to be relevant , effective and productive in today’s world, and rising to new challenges and demands by cooperating collectively, without needing some papal figure in the form of some human guru to guide us all, make us his humble sheep and claiming to be the sole owner of all he beholds in the universe of the sikhs.

In our darkest hour, in the evening of our sorrows, the voice of Shree Guru Granth Sahib is the dawn that brings life, hope and joy and makes us kiss eternally the petals of the lotus feet of God within ourselves.

[mohinder pal]

Just saw it today the topic description ;' Debate with the Naamdhari Guy'

FYI i am not a Naamdhari. But i salute to those Naamdharis who sacrificed their lives to Protect sikh maryada During British Times. Please check your refernces Satguru/Sant/Baba Ram singh ji never told that He wanted to create separate Naamdhari Sect in Sikhism(please refer to his Letters from Rangoon Jail) and never ever did he mention He is a Guru(again refer to jail chittiyan). He always mentioned in his letters that SGGSji is the ultimate SATGURU.

[mala]

Just saw it today the topic description ;' Debate with the Naamdhari Guy'

FYI i am not a Naamdhari. But i salute to those Naamdharis who sacrificed their lives to Protect sikh maryada During British Times. Please check your refernces Satguru/Sant/Baba Ram singh ji never told that He wanted to create separate Naamdhari Sect in Sikhism(please refer to his Letters from Rangoon Jail) and never ever did he mention He is a Guru(again refer to jail chittiyan). He always mentioned in his letters that SGGSji is the ultimate SATGURU.

There's a big difference between the mahan naamdharis of Baba Ram Singh's time and the naamdharis today who proclaim him and his "successors" SatGurus. I think we need to define that before we start justifying their beliefs and acceptance in the mainstream panth.

[mohinder pal]

I agree with MALA

[rollingpunjab]

Akal Puruk would send somebody to destroy the evils and would not take birth himself....No sikh Guru was Akal Purukh himself...they are said to be the "roop of akal purukh"...!

Body is not Guru then what Guru did take birth and which Guru was/is apart of birth. It's contradicting statement to say Guru is not the body and then say they took birth and are not Akal Purakh.

well...it is not contradicting...body cannot be a Guru...the jot inside the body is Guru...once the jot is out of the body...it is nothing...that roohani jot now rests in SGGS...The Shabad Guru...the shabad has been Guru...but how would shabad evolve in the world without any carrier...the carrier is the body of the Guru Saahibs...they gave the shabad to us...tried to attach us with it and then left their body...after achieving their task...now that we have shabad Guru in form of SGGS we dont need any deh to guide us...the shabad itself is an utmost guidance and our conscience as developed by Sikh Guru Saahibs by their deeds in their entire life span which are again in agreement with the Shabad...is all we need to understand the message of shabad Guru...!

[rollingpunjab]

Just saw it today the topic description ;' Debate with the Naamdhari Guy'

FYI i am not a Naamdhari. But i salute to those Naamdharis who sacrificed their lives to Protect sikh maryada During British Times. Please check your refernces Satguru/Sant/Baba Ram singh ji never told that He wanted to create separate Naamdhari Sect in Sikhism(please refer to his Letters from Rangoon Jail) and never ever did he mention He is a Guru(again refer to jail chittiyan). He always mentioned in his letters that SGGSji is the ultimate SATGURU.

that may be right...but his followers have started deh pratha in sikhism to such an extent that they have even mixed kriyas like hawans etc. in sikhism...they dont believe in SGGS being the Guru and no khande di pahul as well...believe in keeping kesh...thats it...dont elieve in rest of the k's...spend their life wearing white chola and white turban...which Sikh maryada told us to do so...it must be made by the following so called Gurus...!