Why Do Some Sikhs Dismiss The Sikh Call For Independence From India

[Guest mehtab1singh]

If Guru Gobing Singhji wanted Khalistan he would have created it. Guruji wanted to fight oppression and allow Hindus to practice Hinduism and Muslims to practice Islam. Sikhism is about the brotherhood of man not segregating itself from everyone else.

Correct, agreed.

Please tell me where it says one of Guru Gobind Singh Jis hukams is to Rule Independently.

Ill tell you one thing it wont be in Shri Guru Granth Sahibji anywhere.

I am not sure about Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, but as per my limited knowledge, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj did say "Raj Bina Neh Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Daley Maley Hain", and "Koi Kisi Ko Raj Nah Deh Hai, Jo Leh Hai Nijj Bal Se Lai Hain".

The people that watch too many bollywood films dismiss the Sikh call for independance as over reacting.

When they turn off Zee Cinema and start learning about what goes on in the real world thats when they wake up and realise that Sikhs tried their best to live in Hindustan as equals but their atrocities against the Sikhs have left no other choice but to pursue the Sikh right for self determination in the form of the sovereign state of Khalistan.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Way to go, awesome example!!!!

[GPS]

There are many fake khalsitanis these days.These fakes have not read bani, are not nitnemis, know nothing about sikh history.These fakes also disown bani of Guru Gobind singh ji.

One of these fakes is Gurmit aulakh.How such people can help such a cause when they have no life themselves.

Khalsa raj should be based on religious principles of sikhism that supports a system in which there is no aggrieved whether he is a sikh or hindu or muslim or christian and not on gunda gurdi of fake khalistanis who use unsikh language from stages.

[wakeupUK]

You have asked this question, and this is exactly what you should be doing and not follow anything without knowing the facts, which I will outline below.

We need to raise an international Sikh discussion on this topic, on why as Sikhs we need an Independent state. This will enable people who do not think we need are own land to change there minds, as there is abundant evidence that shows we need our own land . Until we get our own land, we will just be beaten physically, mentally and spiritually by our enemies in fact this is what is happening now, we are just the new Jews of the World, I would not be surprised to find out that there are more genocidal incidents that have occurred against the Sikh community by the Indian government than the Nazi regime committed against the Jewish community, we Sikhs are a very weak community specially in Punjab or Amritsar the site of our most holiest shire Harmindir Sahib, this is where RSS and BJP activists are operating in open its like Nazi's marching through Israel , you may think we are strong but we are not, the Indian government has shown us this, the Harimandir Sahib attack or the Mass genocide of Sikhs could never have happened if there was not involvement of weak Sikhs, we need to now setup Sikh strongholds in the West, like Historical and religious institutes, Political organization and think tanks similar to the Akal Takhat, as the Sikh institutes in India have been compromised by the Indian government. On the basis of the Sikh Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, I think we should have our own land maybe international law supports this, we should deem the India government an illegal entity in occupied Punjab. If the Indian government could put us in gas chambers they would, like an Indian parliamentary stated in the 80's that if they had to kill 25 million Sikh then they will. Why to Sikhs in Punjab say they do not want an independent land, because they know if they ever speak of a separate land they will most likely be killed , they are afraid for their life, this is slave thinking and not the thoughts of a free individual.

This is now a War of Minds, if a community does not know about its history, religion, or culture, then how will it know if a crime is being committed against it. For example Hindu extremist advocate that Sikh heroes were actually Hindus and have changed school teaching books in Punjab, within four generations Sikhs will actually say themselves that Sikhs heroes were actually Hindus themselves. Lookup the dictionary meaning of a Sikh, they mostly state it is a combination of Hinduism and Islam, this is totally wrong who gave them the right to state such inaccurate information.

Ask yourselves why do Sikhs know more about the Jewish holocaust than the Sikh genocide committed by the Indian government?

Ask yourselves why the world knows little about the Sikhs genocide, and why the World has taken little action against the Indian government?

Ask yourselfers when an atrocity has been committed against a Sikhs in Indian, it does not make international news around the world ?

I don't really know why we want khalistan, what do we hope to achive from it? Sorry if that has offended anyone, but i'm sure there are many youngsters who don't know either so please kindly educate me on the issue.

At present, in the future and the Past the Sikh religion and people have been and will be under continuous attack by the Indian government by means of attacking us physical - The genocide of Sikhs throughout the 80's in Indian specially Punjab, the lack of resources for Sikhs like energy, the Mass migration of Bayee to Punjab to change demographics and destroy any stronghold of Sikhs, making votes for congress. Attacking us mentally - The Indian government regime of discrimination against Sikhs, eg Sikhs can only marry under the Hindu marriage act, Sikhs not given jobs in Punjab due to the ethnic representation laws, allowing alcohol and drugs to run freely in Punjab. Attacking us spiritually - distorting Sikh history, distorting Sikh religion, the setting up of Cults in Punjab, Encouragement of Hindi over Punjabi language in Punjab. There is evidence to indicate that the Dasam Granth has been compromised by Hindu's long ago and distorted its scriptures.

Like the serpent with many heads the Indian government is not attacking us on one level but multiple levels, the Indian government spies have infiltrated our committees and organisations for one this indicated by the infighting between Sikhs over issues that are very much clear.

The creation of a country for Sikhs will enable us to live without persecution, allow us to think freely, insure justice and security, allow Sikhism to flourish and most importantly have the right of self determination without being the slaves of the Indian government.

I personally think having Khalistan will do more damage than good. Of all the religions in the world Sikhs are the best at fighting amongst themselves! We want to escape the corrupt Indian government and police officers....how often do we hear about corruption in the gurdwara's committees etc, Most of the Punjab police officers are mostly Sikh and that hasn't stopped them being corrupt.

The discussion for a Sikh nation, and Sikh self determination out-weighs the notion we will just fight amongst ourselves, every community and nation has corruption and argue amongst themselves, there is indications in fact the Indian government has infiltrated the Sikhs communities, and are causing much of these arguments so that Sikh community will not come into union. We need to have more faith in our communities and abilities.

If it's about being able to pass laws to ban drinking, smoking..........that in princple is great but i can imagine it would still go on behing closed doors, as panjabi's are known for being the biggest drinkers (after the irish).

I am sure once we have our own country we can combat such addiction like alcoholism and smoking. the Indian government is truly our enemy maybe even worse than the Mughuls, why does the Indian government not ban alcohol in Punjab or setup addiction camps why is Punjab one of the worst states for addiction. The Indian government does not even stop illegal liquor stores in Punjab, what this all points to is, the Indian government actually want Sikh to be addicts so that they will be easy to control then. Infact all Punjabi's are know for now is having parties, singing and dancing and drinking, what happened to the past perceptions of the Sikhs community such as martial saintly people. The Indian government is positively encouraging Sikhs to drink and become addicts, it is not stupid to think that the Indian government created operation to make Sikhs alcoholics.

I also don't agree with segregating our religion off, we are one of the only religions in the world that don't actively go out and convert people, so i think its good for sikhs to be integrated into other different societys so people can learn about out religion. I give lifts to people at work and they always listen to kirtan in my car without complaint. One of the people i have given a lift to is muslim and he said our kirtan was relaxing. I have different gurdwara's as my screensaver and the polish guy i work with recognises each of them now and what is special about them. So i really think it helps not having all the sikhs in one place.

The idea of Sikh nation, would not mean cutting of other religions, have other countries like the US cut off other religions infact the US is very much multi-cultured. A Sikh nation would mean a better springboard for Sikhs to teach others about the Sikh religion and not be silenced as they are now in India.

In theory what i think we want to achieve sounds good, but in reality i can't see there being many major differences.

The only way for Sikhs now, is a nation for Sikhs. We have seen genocide be committed by the worlds largest so called democracy and no justice been given to the perpetrators in fact the perpetrator walk feely and have been rewarded. There will be major difference the laws and polices of a Sikh nation will be based on Sikh scriptures, Sikhs will live freely without persecutions and have self determination<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

[rollingpunjab]

lets be khalsa first rather than khalistanis...when we will become true khalsa, all of us who claim to be the folower of SGGS...unity will be there itself and khalsa raaj or true khalistan will be there itself...which father would provide his bank balance, keys of his safe to kid who ius spoiled and irresponsible...yes we are today damn spoiled and highly irresponsible...we do not deserve a independence...when sons were good with lot of kamai and rehet...Satguru Himself provided khalsa Raaj to His sons...when they started loosing directions provided by Satguru...they lost their khalsa Raaj...!

So we are required to be true Khalsa first...Khalistan would not be a big deal then...!

[sikhwiki]

If Guru Gobing Singhji wanted Khalistan he would have created it. Guruji wanted to fight oppression and allow Hindus to practice Hinduism and Muslims to practice Islam. Sikhism is about the brotherhood of man not segregating itself from everyone else.

Correct, agreed.

I also agree with you.

Please tell me where it says one of Guru Gobind Singh Jis hukams is to Rule Independently.

Ill tell you one thing it wont be in Shri Guru Granth Sahibji anywhere.

I am not sure about Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, but as per my limited knowledge, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj did say "Raj Bina Neh Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Daley Maley Hain", and "Koi Kisi Ko Raj Nah Deh Hai, Jo Leh Hai Nijj Bal Se Lai Hain".

Where do you get these quotes from? again I doubt these quotes are from Guru Granth Sahibji, you seem to be taking quotes from anywhere just to backup your what you want to think.

The people that watch too many bollywood films dismiss the Sikh call for independance as over reacting.

When they turn off Zee Cinema and start learning about what goes on in the real world thats when they wake up and realise that Sikhs tried their best to live in Hindustan as equals but their atrocities against the Sikhs have left no other choice but to pursue the Sikh right for self determination in the form of the sovereign state of Khalistan.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Way to go, awesome example!!!!

Just because someone disagrees with you regarding Khalistan then he must fall into one of the following categories

Hindu, Muslim, Sharabi/druggy, Bollywood film lover, uneducated, unsikh, Mona, basically not Sikh

I dont live in India but visit there once or twice a year, I have never come across family, friends or to that mind anyone that is asking for Khalistan or is talking about being oppressed. Its only in the UK or Canada that I hear this type of talk. Mostly young Sikhs in the UK/Canada who think Sikhism is all about 1984. "Our Guru is Guru Granth Sahibji" they say but where does Maharaj talk about Khalistan or any other political issues.

Its the first time I have come across these 52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singhji but it seems everytime someone needs to back up their own ideas they seem to pull quotes out from all sorts of sources yet they only mann "Sri Guru Granth Sahibji".

Oh and I forgot to mention I dont watch bollywood films I dont get time, but I bet youve seen more than me.

[I humbly bow]

To KH4L1$T4N1 and WakeupUK,

You kind of have confirmed the reasons that i thought we wanted Khalistan, but thank you for replying, it has been an interesting read...there's just a few points i'd like to reply to please.

'Did the 100,000+ innocent Sikhs killed by the goverment for being accused of "terrorism" die in vain? Yeh Sikhs fight amongst themselves, but we don exactly kill one another over differences, just look at how the Muslims do that to eachother.'

Actually how many stories do you hear of sikhs killing their NRI relatives for property, sikh stabbing at the vaisakhi mela few years ago, the high profile religious sikh who was killed in europe not too long ago....i could go on...

'One of the 52 hukams by Guroo Gobind Singh ji is to RULE INDEPENDENTLY'

Wow i've never seen these before, i'm really impressed, that sounds beautiful! I think there are plenty of points on there that we could all quite easily work on indevidually; to improve ourselves. Why not let us all make these changes in ourselves before targeting something that will require a lot of hard work and effort to achieve......not that i'm afraid of hard work lol....maybe then when we are ready we will be better equipped to achieve it?......................or maybe the issue is that it's easier to fight for khalistan then improve ourselves wiht the other 51 hukams?............just my thoughts.

'RSS and BJP'

Please forgive my blondness, but what do the above 2 mean, what sort of issues do they stand for?

'there is indications in fact the Indian government has infiltrated the Sikhs communities, and are causing much of these arguments so that Sikh community will not come into union.'

Do you really believe the indian government is causing all the arguments amongst sikhs.....even all those similar arguments that sikhs fight over outside of india? Has it ever occured to you that people are reponsible for their own actions......or should we keep playing this blame game, where the indian government has infiltrated everything and everyone. I don't agree with everything that the indian governemnt does, but i think we should be learn to be responsible for our own actions and mistakes....it doesn't always have to be someone else's fault.

'I am sure once we have our own country we can combat such addiction like alcoholism and smoking'

I'll give you and analogy; What's the point of buying a brand new house, that is really dirty and then moving in without cleaning it? Surely it would make more sense to tackle these issues amongst the sikh community first so we could make a clean fresh start...

'At present, in the future and the Past the Sikh religion and people have been and will be under continuous attack by the Indian government by means of attacking us physical - The genocide of Sikhs throughout the 80's in Indian specially Punjab'

I agree with your point on the genocide of sikhs in the 80's, they were absolutley horrific! .....but from what i understand alot of those sikhs weren't fighting for khalistan they were just going about their daily lives when attacked, even alot of people in Sri Harminder Sahib, they were just there for darshan, they didn't go there with the intention of fighting for khalistan. So i don't think its right to say they died in vain, becuase they were just innocent people caught in the middle, Waheguru.

'Sikhs will live freely without persecutions and have self determination'

That sounds like a beautiful dream paji, but i think it's a long way from reality at the moment.

BTW i don't watch bollywood or zee cinema, i don't dismiss sikhs calls as overreacting, but i just personally feel that there are more major issues wrong with ourselves which we should fix before we try something like 'saving the world'. How can we seek to improve society and the sikh community if we cannot improve ourselves first.

Again please forgive me if i have offended anyone with this.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

[soorma18]

lets be khalsa first rather than khalistanis...when we will become true khalsa, all of us who claim to be the folower of SGGS...unity will be there itself and khalsa raaj or true khalistan will be there itself...which father would provide his bank balance, keys of his safe to kid who ius spoiled and irresponsible...yes we are today damn spoiled and highly irresponsible...we do not deserve a independence...when sons were good with lot of kamai and rehet...Satguru Himself provided khalsa Raaj to His sons...when they started loosing directions provided by Satguru...they lost their khalsa Raaj...!

So we are required to be true Khalsa first...Khalistan would not be a big deal then...!

[Guest shastr]

this thread is pointless.

a great saint soldier once said, "singho the day we all become khalse, is the day there will be khalsa raaj".

and instead of trying to work on our jeevans, here we are trying to get over on one another. what a waste of manukha janam.

[humkire]

Our history is rooted in and around Punjab. However, Sikhi/Gurmat itself is Gurujee's ideology/teachings that has no physical boundaries. Gurmat was never meant to be confined to one physical space. That is why in the early days the centre of Sikhi moved with each Gurujee from Nankana to Khadur to Goindwal to Amritsar to Kiratpur to Patna to Anandpur. In these movements is locked a divine secret i.e ''sa dharat bhei hreeawli jitheh mera satgur betha aae''. Shree Guru Granth Sahib after being bestowed gurgaddi in Nanded is now practically in every country of the world. Wherever Gurujee goes and Sikhs go, that is supposed to become a centre of Sikhism , a place of worship, where Sikhism flourishes and spreads wide, like oil over water.

While we can make a lot of effort to secure a physical space in Punjab called Khalistan, which the majority of us Sikhs support fervently given the GOI political scenario and anti -Sikh sentiments among the majority of Hindus that ''wakeupUK'' has articulated above, the fact remains that pre and post such Sikh independence, the biggest challenge we face is introducing Sikhi to the world. Someone earlier on, has said Sikhi is not a religion of conversion. This is not true. No where does SGGS say that the message of Sikhi is meant for a particular ethnic group in a particular physical area. Guru Nanak Dev as we know travelled far and wide and people converted out of their former religions to become the early sikhs called Nanak Panthis. Even the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Gurus opted out of hinduism to become Sikhs(before receiving gurgaddi). Guru Amardas in fact created 22 manjis i.e authorising 22 people amongst others to specifically preach Sikhism and spread the word of Sikhi among their local communities. The prime reason why Jahangir ordered the murder i.e the matrydom of Guru Arjan Dev was because hindus(amongst others) were converting to Sikhism in large numbers, alarming the muslims who wanted conversions to be to Islam.

Its only after passing of Gurujeeship in human flesh, that subsequent generations of Sikhs started becoming complacent in spreading the message of Sikhi to others without any command to do so. Subsequently, we have slided towards becoming an introverted community engulfed by infighting and disputes. Today new oppurtunities present themselves because outward migration has resulted in Sikhs slowly spreading around the world. Wherever we have gone, generally we have gone with an economic agenda of starting a new life of economic and financial prosperity rather than seen ourselves as saint soldiers on a mission to spread Sikhi internationally. Well, that was then but the Sikh youths of today and tomorow have a choice. The choice is between a) allowing ourselves to get diluted and blend like melted butter into the majority population and lose our identity, or, b) try to maintain our numbers and gurudwaras wherever we are and fight off attempts to dwindle our numbers and faith, or, c)wake up as the Khalsa of our Guru and spread Sikhi to local populations wherever we are so our gurudwaras get packed with newly baptised Sikhs from all races. It would be a dream come true the day i could go to a gurudwara and see it packed with sikhs from all races, all worshipping the greatness and universality of SGGS.

There is an inherent human need to know God,and an inherent human desire to be in chardikela . At present people are weary of the ability of islam to nurture and justify terrorism and people dont buy the argument of Jesus's strange birth and death. Likewise people find the strange mantras of buddhism rather obscure and the pantheon of hindu gods as characters from a mythical Harry Porter film. Hence this is the ripe time for us to sow the seeds of Sikhi.

Look at tibetan buddhism. Do buddhists worry that if the chinese goverment nuked and killed the last remaining buddhist in tibet, that tibetan buddhism is finished. No! Why? Because the Dalai Lama's dharamsala has been actively and effectively marketing Tibetan Buddhism in the west in the last 20 odd years and setting up a network of buddhist organisations and centres. Even if India banned the Dalai Lama and Buddhism in india it will still survive because it has found sympathy and support in the west. Likewise Bahaism has been eradicated in Iran but instead has became a world wide movement with sprawling temples around the world and an international organisational structure.

Khalistan we may get or not get . But spreading Sikhi is a goal we can start working for today. We need to move on from our mindsets that paralyse us from wanting to spread Sikhi . Our pride that our religion is democratic,universal, not gender-biased, modern, relevant, practical and scientific must translate itself into Sikhi parchar sewa done tirelessly.

[MAJHAIL_JATT]

My take on Khalistan is that I support the general principle/idea. But I disapprove of how it morphed into something that got out of hand. Both sides commited atrocities, and it escalated to the point that entire families were getting killed by association. Ask does an entire police officer's family have to be wiped out because the father/husband was a high ranking officer? I'm all for the officer being sent on a one way for being a cruel man, but the family has commited no crime. Or on the other hand does an entire family of a khardku deserve to be killed? What about civilians on a bus getting killed for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't say these things didn't happen, because they did, and afterwards khardkus even sang about it. Listen to original jago ayeea where they boast about the jago(we all know what this means) doing saphi of families and getting on buses. Killing of civilians should be condoned, not praised. In a civil war the first thing you need is support of the populace, these kinds of instances drive people away. This is what it escalated into, a t1t for tat bloodbath. Another issue for the failure is every opportunist came out of the woodwork and saw the opportunity to profit and jumped at it. Be it criminal gangs that infiltrated the movement simply for their own personal gain. Or supposed fund raisers who simply pocketed the money. These are the reasons that drove people away. Don't get me wrong, there were alot of noble shaheeds who gave their lifes for the cause. But a bad shadow was casted over them over them by the action of a minority.