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Why Do Some Sikhs Dismiss The Sikh Call For Independence From India

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Only Five, your right 100 % the army in 1981 throught 1982 and 83 were brought in to have training in Punjab, be comfortable with the streets, and atmosphere with Punjab, and get to know Punjab. They openly did training in areas such as around nawashehar, and my moms pind Memoodpur

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as well since ppl who hate capitilism tend to be ppl who are easily victimised and don't know how to take personal accountability

I believe wishful thinking is very harmful to an individual. Free market does not equal Canada. Free Capitalistic and canada does not go together. The first dollar was borrowed(loaned) at interest from the Bank of Canada. So where is the free part. There is nothing free about Canadian currency. You could have all the money in Canada and still you will be in debt because the first dollar was borrowed at interest. So you ask how can this interest be paid back. It can't there is no way to pay it back. So life continues in debt in a debt society. Free is a fantasy here. Legal tender shouldn't be looked at as a solution here. It won't work.

But I love the capitalistic system because it does encourage hard work, only when you add free into the idea. Where you don't owe interest.biggrin.gif

so my guess is your next answer to punjab social problems going to be its a conspiracy the indian govt puts a gun to every youth's head and say's do drugs

No, just flush in Punjab with alcohol. Every corner gets a alcohol store and police are told to let it ride. Availablity of drugs increases drug and alcohol uses. It's like offering free drugs to a high school student only because you know he'll become a regular customer. Both accomplish the same, but are doing it for different reasons.

No one is denying that internal problems need to be fixed for higher values and are truly important, but it is completely wrong to say introducing Khalistan into the youth thinking now will not fix anything. Introducing Khalistan will give the youth something bigger and more important to focus on. It gives them a purpose and a goal in life. Thinking about future cause a person to make long term decision, instead of what drink I'll have in my cup or what I'll smoke or what I'll shot up in my viens tomorrow. Who wouldn't want to live in a free independent state. A person reason for life change pretty quick.

Also in one of your post you said something about punjab youth problems and you want to tackle them. That's all fine, but Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa was on that mission and he gained alot of support from all sides. He got alot of youth off of drugs and alcohol. But this is bad news for Indian Government as we saw what took place at Sri Akal Takht Sahib. Government don't like the oppressed people getting stronger. And they dealt with that didn't they(thousand Sikhs died). So let's not make history repeat itself, instead learn from history. If Khalistan is developed then Indian government can't use government power to break the strong movement we all want. An independent state truly means free from poisons politics.

I keep repeating myself why having controls of government is so important, but it just flys over your head.

Was Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa to blame for Sri Akal Takht Sahib being blown up? Answer this question and then you'll know how much was Sikhs fault and how much it was Indian government fault(or blaming others for what happened to us). Did he blame himself for helping youth out and fighting for freedom? Did he blame himself for something that is out of his control because there was no Khalistan.

i support alot of the things sant jarnail bhindranwale did for sikhs in punjab before operation bluestar but not everything, he should of never gone into harmandar sahib and brought weapons in and put inocent lives in danger, if you look at great sikh leaders in the past and read biolgraphys like maharaja ranjit singh they would never done something like that, as well he basicully pinned himself up against the wall.

My opinion operation bluestar is the indian govt fault cause they attacked on purpose and chose the date they did to cause maximum damage and casualty's, they had other options, and bhindranwale should of kept the fight out of harmandar sahib and should of chose a different location to build a fort to fight the indan govt from, cause by choosing the harmandar sahib he gave the indian govt an excuse to attack harmandar sahib

I could label you here easily, but I'm take it as your ignorant of the True event of Sri Akal Takht Sahib in 1984. As many people are. But for future references you should put in two years before even Sant Jarnail Singh ji went into Sri Akal Takht Sahib the Indian government made a model of Harmindar Sahib and trained their army on how to attack Harmindar Sahib. This is a real important piece of information you need when looking at what took place. Sant ji came into Sri Akal Takht Sahib after. So the cause of the attack wasn't Sant ji as most misinformed individuals like to put it.

Also you can't say Sant infront of Jarnail Singh ji's name if you believe he did something wrong. Saint are true and don't make any mistakes. And which your believe Sant ji did make mistakes, so next time drop Sant from his name when YOU refer to him or you were you misinformed on why the attack took place and why Sant ji went into Sri Akal Takht Sahib?

Maharaja Ranjit Singh ji was alot of things and he was punished by Sri Akal Takht for his actions.

Also were i also differ having visited india and city's like mumbai and having family in mumbai and from everything i read on hindutva movment from their percpective and not the sikh percpective, i don't think hindus our systematicully trying to destroy sikhs, if you believe this then visit mumbai and pune and other city's in india, reason congress attacked bhindranwale was cause they were beign exposed for their corrupt ways, the congress party our just bunch of corrupt politicans and have no reason to be motivated to destroy sikhs, long as they can behave like criminals they our happy anyone who gets in their way be it hindu sikh muslim christian they'll kill them, and thats what happened in 84

Can you point out to me where I have said HINDU are systematically trying to destroy Sikhs. Also can you tell me who were the people that massacred Sikhs in Dehli after Indira Gandhi was killed.

on top of that with india becomming so liberal so fast its driving the hindutva fanatics in city's like mumbai wild and their trying to push down the hindu youth and the hindu youth are fighting back rather then taking it from the hindutva fanatics

Again same question who killed Sikhs in Dehli? It wasn't just fanatic Hindus.

but i was never able to figure out what bhindranwale stand was on sikhs who chose not to be amritdhari

He had respect for them, just like he respected non Sikhs. Sound like your trying to defame him here. Be a honest Sikh like the Sikh youth slate stand for.

bhindranwale became a threat to congress corrupt ways, but congress thought they could use him hence why they introduced him to indian politics and tried to protect him at first, but when he went from exposing the corrupt ways of the punjab govt he moved onto expose the corrupt ways of the indian govt, only thing i didn't agree with him on was that hindus were trying to destroy sikhs, once again i know their a billion sikh websites and sikhs who claim hindus our trying to destroy sikhs but reading the hindu percpective and visiting india i call most this propaganda that hindus trying to destroy sikhs bullshi*

When was Sant ji against Hindus? Your are truly misinformed or here to spread you hatred in a sly way. Sant ji infact built a Hindu Mandir in a village where there wasn't one.

I stopped myself from asking your age, but now I must know your age and if you don't want others to know then just pm me and I won't disclose it to anyone.

as well achole is more available in city's like pune and mumbai especially to studends especially once working in call centers then kids in punjab, the root of the problem is that parants in punjab love their son's to much and spoil them to heavily, this cultural stupidity to celeberate when the boy is born and cry when the girl is born is one of the biggest root causes of our social problems

Really!!! that's why Punjab is the biggest consumer of alcohol in all of India. Stop playing games here and using good peoples name(Sikh youth of Surrey) to spread your hatred toward a honest man like Sant ji.

OR, If your truly misinformed then for next time keep in mind what I told you. Sant ji went into Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji to protect it from the Indian government who planned to attack it way before Sant ji went in. And remember to share with others that Sant ji wasn't against Hindus and actually built a Mandir for them.

Lastly, the law bit is still flying over your head. If you don't address it, then it's not going to go away or you have refuted it.

Will wait to hear from youbiggrin.gif

"could label you here easily, but I'm take it as your ignorant of the True event of Sri Akal Takht Sahib in 1984. As many people are. But for future references you should put in two years before even Sant Jarnail Singh ji went into Sri Akal Takht Sahib the Indian government made a model of Harmindar Sahib and trained their army on how to attack Harmindar Sahib. This is a real important piece of information you need when looking at what took place. Sant ji came into Sri Akal Takht Sahib after. So the cause of the attack wasn't Sant ji as most misinformed individuals like to put it.

Also you can't say Sant infront of Jarnail Singh ji's name if you believe he did something wrong. Saint are true and don't make any mistakes. And which your believe Sant ji did make mistakes, so next time drop Sant from his name when YOU refer to him or you were you misinformed on why the attack took place and why Sant ji went into Sri Akal Takht Sahib?

Maharaja Ranjit Singh ji was alot of things and he was punished by Sri Akal Takht for his actions."

i apologise for placing labels, but i heard of the conspiracy theory that the indian govt made a harmindar sahib duplicate but never proven, secondly just like 9/11 conspiracy's it takes 2 minutes just to logically question if this is true or not to know the true answer

i call this a conspiracy cause if the indian govt just randomaly attacked the harmandar sahib for no reason, the world would turn on india and at the time the united states were not friends with india cause india to friendly with the soviet union, so the politicans of india would be stupid to do this, their would be revolts in the army amongst sikhs, thirdly many hindus do respect sikhs and hence why i ask everyone to visit mumbai pune and other city's and those hindus would revolt if their govt did this

but tell me if you truly believe this why would the indian govt just attack the harmandar sahib for no reason cause to me it makes no logical sence, what would be their motivation behind attacking harmandar sahib for no reason

hence why i believe bhindrawale made a mistake going into harmandar sahib and gave the indian govt an excuse to attack

"Can you point out to me where I have said HINDU are systematically trying to destroy Sikhs. Also can you tell me who were the people that massacred Sikhs in Dehli after Indira Gandhi was killed"

Can you point out to me where I have said HINDU are systematically trying to destroy Sikhs. Also can you tell me who were the people that massacred Sikhs in Dehli after Indira Gandhi was killed.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

it was congress whipped corrupt dumb hindus who killed sikhs in delhi, the dumb once full of anger and rage but also a minority so can't judge a whole population,

plus that same minority of hindus who attacked sikhs also love the cathlic sonia gandhi, and i stand by what i say cause from my experience i have yet to meet a hindu who hates sikhs and especially after having visited india and having family in mumbai i stand by that, their were alot and still our alot of dumb hindus in india just like their are alot of dumb sikhs like bagri who preached killing 50 000 hindus and pulled air india bombing

as well alot of the mob were poor dumb idiots who had no education and led by men like jagdesh tytler who was raised by a christian pastor

you didn't say hindus are trying to systematically that comment was for others who believe in this, cause ive heard it all, their hindu conspiracy to destroy sikhs their using bollywood (even though the biggest players in bollywood our muslims) their using drugs(even though no one puts guns to the youth head and make them do drugs and dawood and his muslim mafia responsible for most drugs in india)

"Again same question who killed Sikhs in Dehli? It wasn't just fanatic Hindus."

not hindu fanatics but congress fanatics who happened to be hindus and the biggest leader of this mob was jagdesh tytler that most hindutva supporters consider christian trying to convert india

it wasn't fanatic hindus in rss and hindutva , they probably partied when indira gandhi died to make up for the failure to kill nehru, but they did succeed and kill gandhi in 47, as well thats why congress party led by rajiv gandhis son have fought hard to ban hindutva literature from rss and other hindutva groups cause of their attack on his family, or read about how hindutva groups consider congress a pro muslim party since 1947 and how they believe a girl from each congress members family should be raped and murdered, read about the anger they feel when the congress party ordered the indian army into sri lanka killing hindu tamils

congress party is a mafia, their corrupt money hungry politicans, bjp are the hindu fanatics

plus visit some hindutva websites and chatrooms cause you think khalistanis hated indira gandhi, wait till you guys see their hate for her, they wish indira gandhi was raped and murdered in front of her supporters

"He had respect for them, just like he respected non Sikhs. Sound like your trying to defame him here. Be a honest Sikh like the Sikh youth slate stand for."

no im not reason i ask this is cause i see so many hardcore bhindranwale supporters judging non amritdhari sikhs, hence one of the reasons why i support sikh youth slate over fundementals, hence why i asked what his stance was

"When was Sant ji against Hindus? Your are truly misinformed or here to spread you hatred in a sly way. Sant ji infact built a Hindu Mandir in a village where there wasn't one.

I stopped myself from asking your age, but now I must know your age and if you don't want others to know then just pm me and I won't disclose it to anyone."

20, reason once again i ask is cause most khalistanis i meet say hindus need to be destroyed murdered and this and that, wasn't one of his things that their certain hindus trying to destroy sikhs

Really!!! that's why Punjab is the biggest consumer of alcohol in all of India. Stop playing games here and using good peoples name(Sikh youth of Surrey) to spread your hatred toward a honest man like Sant ji.

OR, If your truly misinformed then for next time keep in mind what I told you. Sant ji went into Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji to protect it from the Indian government who planned to attack it way before Sant ji went in. And remember to share with others that Sant ji wasn't against Hindus and actually built a Mandir for them.

Lastly, the law bit is still flying over your head. If you don't address it, then it's not going to go away or you have refuted it.

i believe the conspiracy of the indian govt wanting to attack harmandar sahib for no reason is as true as the documantry loose change on 9/11 being an inside job, and i don't believe conspiracy's

plus im the one who pointed out half of punjab's youth our hooked on drugs and i don't think anyone comes close to punjab in consuming achole

but in the city's the achole is much more easily available

reason punjab consumes so much achole and drugs is cause of spoiled boys, its our culture, cry when a girl is born and party like a rockstar when a boy is born and treat him like a king

thats why im saying attack the social issues rather then playing victim crying their making our making sikhs do drugs and drink achole, cause if khalistanis continue to teach ppl to feel like victims their going to have very weak ppl to carry out that revolution, its accountability that builds strength, and true accountability is to stop pointing fingers and start looking at ourselves in the mirror and look at the root for our social problems, and i blame it on punjabi culture favour the boy spoil the boy and treat the girl like second class citizen

no one puts a gun to these guy's heads in punjab and makes them do drugs or achole, its their stupidity that gets them hooked on these problems so lets get to the root of that stupidity and fix it, their pain killers in my house should i take them cause their in my house

this is for ppl who blame hindus for punjab's social problems reason i call it stupid to ever blame hindus for punjab's social problems, is cause look at kerala and how fast their youth are prospering and their christians, and hindu fanatics consider christians the biggest threat to india, yet the youth of kerala are prospering, and if you meet south indians from kerala and theirs tons of them in canada, they don't spoil their boys like we spoil ours, hence why the sikhs of punjab fall to drugs and achole, and the christian youth of kerala prosper

and if your last question on canadian dollar and interest, dude i don't know what you were talking about lol, im second year majoring in economics but didn't understand that sorry you have to re explain it to me, Im sorry but yea that went way over my head I need you to explain it to me on simpler terms, the way i bin tought is when your debt free you our debt free but better to be in good debt then bad debt, were good debt makes you money and bad debt takes your money

but i believe in capitilism cause the greatest advancement in technology and medicine happened in free market systems especially in america, though the systems we have set up in america and canada have many holes i believe they our the best in the world, and why i believe in america after civil war and america suffered a severe depression by end of 19th century and begining the 4 richest men in the world were americans and america was a dominant economic fourth and america was able to do that in under 60 years then the depression happened and they recovered again, and like warren buffet said thinks to the system they will come out stronger then they did before this whole banking crisis

and believe capitilism is better then socialism and communism, all you have to do is put capitilisms track record against socialisms and communisms and see why i believe in capitilism, plus thanks to free market principles india was saved in 1991 when socialism principles almost killed their economy

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On 3/16/2010 at 6:44 AM, yubacitysingh said:

so if the khalistanis havn't bin able to solve any social issues

10 years late but if ur still online heres my answer

1) extremely less or no drugs in the youth

2) only 11 people in a marriage so that girls fam doesnt need to spend their entire life's savings for getting their girl a groom

3) No songs which were promoting alcohol or even had a sense or was lusty in nature was told to remove 

4) singhs having modern shashtar! gurus had the most modern arms, in 80s we had guns. Right now in the name of shashtar we have a small kirpan (only for amritdharis). 

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By heart I am pro-khalistan

By mind I know khalistan's outright independence is not possible under present circumstances so majority of our people must bid our time living within the Indian Union. Our best chance for khalistan was in 1947 and in 1984 when the pakistani army could have crossed the border fought the indian troops aided by Sikhs of punjab and established an area for Sikhs to have autonomy but they betrayed the Sikh groups (dal khalsa, babber khalsa,etc) who wanted khalistan and enjoyed the mess that indian punjab was in from 80s to 90s. While keeping Sikh forces and Indian unionist forces busy in punjab killing each other they launched jihadi uprising operation kashmir, which was their real agenda to get. A more workable khalistan that could be setup within 1-5 years without bloodshed would be a Vatican style city state within the indian union which would have semi autonomous religious and political authority to safeguard Sikhi. I believe the anandpur resolution also called for such a thing?

Also I have many issues with the current leadership of Khalistani's they tend to be hotheads, Low IQ, pro-islamist/pro-pakistan,etc. Real khalistani's know they can not trust pakistan nor work for their islamist agenda aswell as beware that forces in the india union are hostile to their cause too. Vast majority of Sikhs in india also support the idea of having a Sikh state to safeguard Sikhs but wont openly admit it because of the persecution they may face from hindians.

So any pro-islamist khalistani automatically puts off vast majority of pro-khalistan Sikhs we have no time for them. It's like pro-christian khalistani's it would make no sense pushing a favorable christian agenda for a Sikh state likewise being islamophile khalistani makes no sense when they should be pro-sikhi all the way and denounce islamists whenever they are committing unjust acts of aggression on our community or others.

 

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Unfortunately the time is gone. 

1947 was the perfect opportunity. There were highly organised Sikh militants (a lot from army backgrounds) roaming Punjab at that time. That's why we were able to inflict so many casualties on muslims. The British would have been happy to create another nation, there was nothing for them to lose. There would have been no army for us to fight against.

India however will never give Khalistan. If they did, other states would demand the same thing. They are a major military power and we don't have the means to defeat them. The best we could do is what we did in the 80s. Even Kashmir which is blatantly supported by Pakistan cannot break free from India, what chance have we got?

Sikh numbers are also declining in Punjab, we may not even be a majority in 50 years.

The only chance we have now is if India disintegrated like Yugoslavia in the 90s, but I don't see that happening in the near future.

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39 minutes ago, ChardikalaUK said:

Unfortunately the time is gone. 

1947 was the perfect opportunity. There were highly organised Sikh militants (a lot from army backgrounds) roaming Punjab at that time. That's why we were able to inflict so many casualties on muslims. The British would have been happy to create another nation, there was nothing for them to lose. There would have been no army for us to fight against.

India however will never give Khalistan. If they did, other states would demand the same thing. They are a major military power and we don't have the means to defeat them. The best we could do is what we did in the 80s. Even Kashmir which is blatantly supported by Pakistan cannot break free from India, what chance have we got?

Sikh numbers are also declining in Punjab, we may not even be a majority in 50 years.

The only chance we have now is if India disintegrated like Yugoslavia in the 90s, but I don't see that happening in the near future.

India has become "too big" to fail. It won't be allowed to self-destruct. Perhaps there might be some serious blows delivered, but nothing fatal in my opinion.

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We have too many idiots who are either pro-islam, or pro-hindus. Extreme desh bhagats, or extremely anti-india and blinded. What we need more of us is level headed, or even shrewd leaders who can play both sides. 

 

As per the individual stating Sant Ji should not have taken weapons inside Darbar Sahib. Our Akal Takht is a sign of miri and piri, nothing wrong with weapons inside our guru ghars. Most won't know this, but Sant Ji had offered to leave Darbar Sahib but Gen Shabegh Singh had let him know its too late already. The planning for Darbar Sahib began Dec 1982, I believe, as someone pointed out. One can only reside in Akal Takht with jathedars permission. I think we can conclude Akali Dal had allowed to move in so they could give Congress green light to swoop in. 

 

Ps. I used to post on here long ago, some of you may recognize me, I do recognize a few names. 

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33 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

India has become "too big" to fail. It won't be allowed to self-destruct. Perhaps there might be some serious blows delivered, but nothing fatal in my opinion.

It's true, they are now a military superpower, they have nuclear weapons and a very good navy.

Even the Tamil Tigers couldn't defeat the Sri Lankan military who are a lot weaker than India's and much smaller in size.

1947 was a fantastic opportunity, all we had to do was ask.

Ask and you shall receive, we didn't even ask!

Silly Mr 'Village teacher' Malhotra.

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1 minute ago, ChardikalaUK said:

It's true, they are now a military superpower, they have nuclear weapons and a very good navy.

Even the Tamil Tigers couldn't defeat the Sri Lankan military who are a lot weaker than India's and much smaller in size.

1947 was a fantastic opportunity, all we had to do was ask.

Ask and you shall receive, we didn't even ask!

Silly Mr 'Village teacher' Malhotra.

We had no choice in 1947. Our "leaders" quickly realized that British wouldn't give Sikhs a home land due to demographics, and hence chose the Indians. The British wanted out asap, they didn't want to further complicate the Punjab issue with a 3-way split. 

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Sikhs who say having weapons at Akal Takht was wrong do not know what they are talking about!

When Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, our emperor, sat on his throne Akal Takht Sahib, he ordered the sangat to donate Horses and weapons! From that day weapons have always been kept at Akal Takht Sahib. Even back then some Sikh found it shocking and they went complaining to Mata Ganga ji, but since then weapons have always been there.

During the misl period the Bhangi Sardars built a fort outside Amritsar with a cannon in it! it was called Bhangian da Qila and the cannon was captured by the Bhangis from the muslims and they called Bhangian di tope. The purpose of the fort was to protect Amritsar/Harmandir Sahib. Later M Ranjit Singh further fortified the Qila. The Ramgharia Bungas had weapons all around the base and at the top of the towers to fire at invaders.

Weapons have always been at Harmandir Sahib. 

 

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7 minutes ago, ChardikalaUK said:

It's true, they are now a military superpower, they have nuclear weapons and a very good navy.

Even the Tamil Tigers couldn't defeat the Sri Lankan military who are a lot weaker than India's and much smaller in size.

1947 was a fantastic opportunity, all we had to do was ask.

Ask and you shall receive, we didn't even ask!

Silly Mr 'Village teacher' Malhotra.

What I do find interesting is how there's a tentative "shaming" of India under Modi, in terms of the Muslim issue in India. If India continues on its current course, I expect that dissent from the West to grow louder in a way that nobody does with sincere gusto with places like Saudi Arabia and China, i.e. countries the West can't afford to pee off despite their questionable records on how they treat certain sections of their respective societies.

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9 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon2 said:

We had no choice in 1947. Our "leaders" quickly realized that British wouldn't give Sikhs a home land due to demographics, and hence chose the Indians. The British wanted out asap, they didn't want to further complicate the Punjab issue with a 3-way split. 

I wonder the same. Maybe there was no chance of it to begin with. Unless we became adamant and vocal about it, something could have come about still. Maybe semi-autonomy for some malwa districts perhaps, anything to keep an armed force alive. But knowing our leaders, they would have merged it within a decade or two under some nehru-treaty!

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3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

What I do find interesting is how there's a tentative "shaming" of India under Modi, in terms of the Muslim issue in India. If India continues on its current course, I expect that dissent from the West to grow louder in a way that nobody does with sincere gusto with places like Saudi Arabia and China, i.e. countries the West can't afford to pee off despite their questionable records on how they treat certain sections of their respective societies.

Have you seen those videos of China where they have built those brainwashing camps for the muslims!  theres like 100,000 muslims in those camps and they make them sing and dance! 

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6 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

What I do find interesting is how there's a tentative "shaming" of India under Modi, in terms of the Muslim issue in India. If India continues on its current course, I expect that dissent from the West to grow louder in a way that nobody does with sincere gusto with places like Saudi Arabia and China, i.e. countries the West can't afford to pee off despite their questionable records on how they treat certain sections of their respective societies.

This shaming stuff happens to Russia, Iran, North Korea in the media all of the time and nothing happens to those countries.

Once you have the kind of military India does no one will mess with you.

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