Grays Sangat Votes To Allowe Alcohol, Meat And Tobacco

[gilli0billi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eElqsjMDDFQ

[Satkaar]

Bhai sahib jee when this issue is taken to the jathedaar sahibs can you also raise that this issue is not exclusive to just the Grays Gurdwara but affects dozens of other Gurdwara Sahibs throughout UK too. Maybe try to get a list of all other Gurdwara Sahibs that own Party Halls.

Its really good that Gursikhs are getting the Jathedaar Sahibs involved.

Thanks

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Over the years some of these the Gurdwara Prabhabndak committees' have been devious in presenting loop holes around the whole meat, alcohol and party hall issue.

The Akal Takht Sandesh 2006 was issued as an elaboration off 1998 Hukumnama giving more detail to the anti Sikh activities NOT allowed within all the annexes of a Gurdwara complex. This is to be viewed as an official religious document endorsed by the highest Sikh authority providing instruction to the entire global Sikh community. When the religious injunctions outlined by Sri Akal Takht Sahib are not adhered to then the Punj Singh Sahiban only view each case in isolation.

Unfortunate as it is, when any issues are presented to the leadership in Punjab, they need to see them as specific and request proof in the form of videos and photographs. For every Gurdwara complex where these anti Sikh activities take place, the names of the committee, witness statements, pictures and videos are always requested in order for a strong case to be presented in front of the Punj Singh Sahiban. In turn, we should have an expectation that the anti Sikh Prabhandak committee will be summoned by the Jathedar and Punj Singh Sabhiban of Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

In regards to the anti Sikh halls within the Gurdwara annex that exist or a being planned in the UK, it is now even more important to collect detailed information (as outlined above) and presented one by one to the Punj Singh Sahiban.

Some active Gursikhs in Punjab have taken on the responsibility of meeting regularly with the Punj Singh Sabhiban to present specific issues of beadbi, not just in India. Through them we may have a route which allows us a platform to combat the grave concerns we have in the UK about the erosion of Sikh activities within our Guru Ghar complexes.

It is unfortunate that our UK home grown jathebhandis' are not showing the kind of leadership we so desperately need from them in relation to these issues. Our media is also shying away from the issue even though many prominent young UK Gursikhs have been in contact with them. This then leaves us with a dynamic grass roots led insurgence, which we can now clearly see from the coming together of Gursikhs in relation to what has happened in Grays from around the country. It is through the uproar made by those Gursikhs who went to Grays, those who have been communicating on the internet, those who have been distributing articles and through a large established network of British Sikhs that the leadership in Punjab might just be beginning to hear us again.

Satkaar Sabha

Satkaar@hotmail.co.uk

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

[sall]

WJKK WJKF

Appalling indeed, to be honest the whole of the UK Sangat needs to get together and tackle this with the requried robustness and put an end to these kind of situations. How do you do it? we have no Akal representative body abroad in any country. These mona /rodas are the biggest threat to Sikhism, they have no right to call themselves Sikh if they cannot bear the weight of any Sikh principle which includes the weight of at least mm of hair to begin with.

[proudkhalsanetwork]

ਸਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਇ ਛਪਿ ਖਲੋਏ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥

Every where same thing no fear of guru sahib, Now i think Its time to throw out these idiots out of panth . Lets Unite Khalsa ji and rise our voice against these masand and so called sikhs,

[West London Singh]

Then without warning one woman stood and pounced on the last Singh. She hit him repeatedly (about 8 times) over the head. He kept his hands by his side at all times whilst trying to escape. Other women joined in and started to grab other Singhs. At this point other Singhs who were at the door to leave Darbar Sahib returned to calm the situation. By now the whole sangat were on their feet and some of the men started to push Singhs and encouraged the women to continue to hit the Singhs. At this point two or three women stepped in to stop the others and the Singhs managed to get away

Then why did the Singh not report the women to the police ?

This is England. If thats the way those women want to behave they will be locked up in jail for doing that. Report the matter to the police (and I'm sure there is CCTV in Gurdwara) and the police will arrest those women.

As far as this matter is concerned, for years and years I've highlighted how Ramgharia and Bhatra Gurdwaras up and down the UK have halls adjoining the Gurdwara where they serve meat and alcohol. Every time I've raised the issue I've been shouted down because it's 'casteist' to talk about ramgharias and bhatras. Whats happening today in Grays is happening pricisely because you've all let it happen. You've let it happen because you've closed your ears and eyes to the fact that its been happening with ramgharia and bhatra gurdwaras for the last 30 years in this country. You say something about them and they cry the 'caste' issue. So why show all this anger now towards Grays , when there's at least a dozen ramgharia and bhatra Gurdwaras that are not just voting on starting it but have been doing it for a few decades now ?

[Khalistan 1984]

Vhaguroo Jee Kaa Khalsa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Phateh

It looks like after all the good work carried out by the Respect4GurooJee campaign, this problem is rearing its ugly head yet again.

It's good to see everyone has been ringing the GurooGhar directly to voice the sangats protest at their proposals. Some of the sangat have also mentioned about Sikh Channel getting involved, I havent personally seen anything happen yet on Sikh Channel in the last few days about this. But why do Sikh Channel need sangat to keep emailing in. The Sikh Channel need to have their own reporters going out to find out about these stories, be more proactive than reactive.

We all know the party hall thing isn't an issue in the respect of it's anti gurmat, end of. There is no justification for doing any of these under the GurooGhars name, using the GurooGhars money to fund such halls is a no go completely.

If a protest is organised, can the sangat please refrain from any physical means of protest as was seen in Southall at the Miri Piri GurooGhar a short time ago. We need to show that we aren't just a physical kaum and that we can resolve issues such as this with peaceful protests.

It is also a good thing that this issue is being discussed at the highest level possible within the Panth, The Akaal Takht. The Akaal Takht need to make their voice heard loudly to send a clear distinct messge. Again, if Sikh Channel could maybe organise a televised broadcast from The Akaal Takht where the Grays situation is talked about and explained why it is wrong. This might sound a bit far fetched but it may be a good way for sangat watching who dont necessiraly believe a party hall is a bad thing, to be convinced it is wrong.

Vaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Phateh

[SikhWorldTv]

"One Singh had to visit hospital with suspected concussion. The trauma of being attacked so viciously in the Darbar hall has traumatised many of the Singhs. One who has just kept his kes (hair) recently is inconsolable and will certainly need some sort of emotional counselling"

Let's see how brave these morons are when a uniform is arresting them infront of the local paper. These pyjamaie who hide behind these too well fed women wrestlers (stuffed with meat paranthas me thinks) will have to understand the consequences of "Inciting Violence".

Chalo Aunties you need to start working overtime to pay the court fines and these eunuch Uncle's need to start going to English classes as the judge can't speak Hindi!!!!

Trust me I have NO RESPECT for anyone who does these acts inside a GuruGhar - If it had happend to me the first thing would be to dial 999 then take photos on my mobile of the subject then any witnesses so I could pursue damages ££££ in court and also make sure a call went to Punjab to each of their pinds to promote the GREAT NAME & FAME these idiots had made in UK.

To the 8 Gursikh's GET THE POLICE and REPORT IT NOW YOU WILL BE DOING THE KHALSA PANTH A MASSIVE SEVA:

Lord Slynn in R v Brown (1993) HL

Definition of assault:

"At common law, an assault is an act by which a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend immediate and unlawful personal violence and a battery is an act by which a person intentionally or recklessly inflicts personal violence upon another. However, the term 'assault,' is now, in both ordinary legal usage and in statutes, regularly used to cover both assault and battery."

[gadget]

This gurdwara hall and all other gurdwara halls need to be closed and used for community projects and not to line the pockets of these devious evil people the moghuls did the same at amritsar and we slaughtered them.

I dont give a rats <banned word filter activated> about the grays community can take their wives and daughters to a pub and leave the gurdwara altogether and of course there are mandirs and mosques that will accept them .....oh sorry I retract that mandirs and mosques never allow alcohol on their premises

These people are scum stupid and blatantly taking the p*** in our gurdwaras what would bhindranwale say about this why are you sikhs so ashamed in grays of confronting this scum

Protest if they dont listen then the akal takht will get involved as soon as they issue an edict against the main culprits their families will be banished from sikhi im sure they ancestors in their next life will be proud of them for getting themselves banished from the greatest religious family in the world

What I propose is some coaches get together and form a protest outside the gurdwara with the sikh channel present for the entire UK sangat to see the beadbi going on preferably on the day of a wedding with the main culprits in attendance so 10's of thousands of sikhs around europe can see the EXACT families making a mokery of sikhism as the moghuls and the congress paerty does as does the bollywood media if that doesnt make them ashamed enough that they are fighting the defenders of our religion for a cause the gurus believed in then we go onto PLAN B which is the lawful route and get thousands of sangat from across the UK to caste a vote and get a new commitee elected if they disagree to stop the alcohol we take away our guru to a closer gurdwara who will respect us as sikhs

[Singhstah]

Its been quite a few days since this news has come out, and so far the only jathebandi I have seen saying anything about this is the BSSF, where on earth is everyone else? There should have been coach loads of sangat outside this Gurdwara days ago.

As for Sikh Channel, this issue above ANY before this is the one for them to show their money where their mouth is.

[harjapbhangal]

WJKK WJKF

I had the opportunity to actually visit Grays gurdwara yesterday for the occasion of an Akhand Path and actually spoke to members of the committee as to what actually happened. I think it is important that before anybody comments on the issue that all parties involved are spoken to.

Also i would like to add that the following comments are observations of the local sangat (those for and against the party hall) and of the committee members.

I asked them about the history of the Gurdwara to which everybody agreed that it was made around 1975ish and a lot of the funds donated to raise it were given on the condition that a hall was made there as at that time in Grays there was no hall for parties in the vicinity. Grays gurdwara covers the regions of Grays, Rainham, Purfleet, Dagenham, Romford, Hornchurch, Upminster, Aveley and other small villages in the region. The next Gurdwara in the region is at Barking or Dartford.

Anyhow the hall was used in the years goneby for parties mainly for the girls' weddings in the region. In recent years the Grays people have began to use Civic Town Hall (Blackshots Lane) for their wedding parties.

It is true that meat and alcohol have been served on the premises. I have been to many weddings and parties there where this has been done. In the past there used to be a double door that led from the toilets behind the langar hall into the party hall. And i believe this has been the key issue. That in the past the hall was seen to be a part of the Gurdwara. However when i inspected the hall yesterday it is very apparent that the hall is closed off from the Gurdwara. The whole back wall where the double doors used to be is a solid brick wall. In the hall there is a fire exit which leads out into a narrow alley which adjoins a working club. The main entrance of the hall is facing towards the Morrisons car park.

I asked the committee and the sangat (no preference just random members) about the recent events and they had the following observations to make.....please remember these are not my personal views but of the local people that were expressed to me in about an hour's conversation with them yesterday.

1. The Sangat members were divided on the issue of the hall. The main consensus was that the decision should be made by the Sangat exclusively. They also felt that perhaps the hall should have a different name and should be registered as a Punjabi Community Centre rather than under the Gurdwara Sahib itself.

2. The Sangat also expressed the fact that they had paid £600,000 to refurbish and rebuild the hall and that at that time this issue was not brought up. Had it been they might have decided to use that money elsewhere.

3. The Sangat were also on the main opposed to outside interference on the issue (including mine) even though i was brought up and bred in the area for over 30 years of my life. They felt outside elements were there to stir up trouble.

4. I asked about the attack on the Singhs and the Sangat who were present confirmed that nobody was attacked but what did happen was that one woman did grab the wrist of a Singh. The reason the women claimed for this was that they claim the Singhs were making videos on their phones which included women and girls and that this was upsetting the women in the Sangat. They also claim no permission for this filming was obtained. The Sangat intervened and there was no bloodshed. The Grays Gurdwara has CCTV and the whole thing is filmed on CCTV the tapes of which they asked me to view (i couldn't due to lack of time). I asked them if they were willing to make these tapes available and they said they would.

5. The Sangat for some reason also seemed upset that the Singhs in question wore jeans ( i dont know how this is relevant but it was a comment thrown about).

6. The senior member of the Gurdwara Mr Keval Singh i believe said he was more than happy to talk to anybody on the issue if they contacted him.

7. It was also confirmed that in the meeting the Singhs were not agressive and sat there with shanti however it is also confirmed that unauthroised filming was going on which may have agitated things. I dont know to what extent this is true.

8. It was also pointed out that in the last 2 Days Grays Gurdwara has received anonymous threats to burn the hall down and other threats from people who were using witheld numbers.

The main issue here seems to be that the Sangat actually want the hall despite the majority of the committee not wanting it. There is a direct conflict between the committee and the Sangat. The Sangat of Grays voted on the issue and the committee i assume has to abide by it. There was also a suggestion that 4 committe members family members influenced the vote but i was also informed by the 8 committee members that their families were also present and one would have to assume that 8 families number more than 4.

The issue once again here is the Sangat. I spoke to members of the committee and the sangat and they all confirmed that meat and alcohol had never entered the diwan or the langar hall areas. The Gurdwara is next to a club where alcohol and cigarette are used sometimes right outside the entrance of the Gurdwara however this seems to be a location problem.

I did make the following suggestions: That the hall should not be registered in the gurdwara name. It should have a separate trust and name and definately should not be called "Grays Gurdwara Hall". It should be totally separate in terms of access points to the Gurdwara.

I did also ask the people there that if closing the hall was an option to which the general response was "yes pay us back our £600,000 and we will actually sell it you or any organisation" so the offer is there if anybody wishes to avail it.

I hope some of these comments have been able to shed some light on the issue. I am impartial in this matter and take no sides. All i have written here is what i observed and was told by Sangat and committee members in my 2 hours visit to Grays Gurdwara yesterday. I do not vouch for the truth of what i have been told however can vouch for what i have seen there.

I would suggest that anybody who has any issues should go to the Gurdwara and speak to the committee members and more importantly the Sangat in order to get an idea first hand of what has happened or what has been happening.

Also i would like to make clear that i do not have extensive or vast knowledge of Sikhism nor do i claim to do so. I use this site in order to learn about my religion and find it very helpful in terms of knowledge and of learning as to how people think.

WJKK WJKF