Female Bullying

[misl shaheedan]

With respect I do not interrupt what you believe in and propergate. I believe in Sikhism not Khalsaism, Sikhism is much bigger than just one martial order. Sikhism allows for difference in opinions and interruptions of scriptures. The scripture quotes you refer to are taken out of context I can give you quotes from gurbani that say the opposite that refer to hindu sadhu's keeping hairs as pointless when they dont even reflect on their creator.

Yes i know which quotes you refer to. There are many things in Gurbani which are misquoted by shararti people to advance their manmat.

One such quote is:

kbIr pRIiq iek isau kIey Awn duibDw jwie ]

kabeer preeth eik sio keeeae aan dhubidhhaa jaae ||

Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.

BwvY lWby kys kru BwvY Grir mufwie ]25]

bhaavai laa(n)bae kaes kar bhaavai gharar muddaae ||25||

You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

This quote is one of the most misquoted quotes from Gurbani. It has been discussed on these forums many times and any doubts people have have been cleared by forum members.

From http://www.sikhism101.com/node/148

"There is one Salokh of Bhagat Kabeer Ji which is often misquoted by mischievous people trying to justify the un-Godly act of shaving or trimming their hair.

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

"O Kabeer! When you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart. You may have long matted hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||"

(Ang 1365)

These lines criticize both those who have long matted hair or shave their head completely in order to achieve union with God. In these lines, the question of keeping or not keeping Kesh is not the case. Similarly Guru Ji says:

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੰਡਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੇਸ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਕਾਂਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥੧੦੧॥

"O Kabeer! You have not shaved your mind, so why do you shave your head? Whatever is done, is done by the mind; it is useless to shave your head. ||101||"

(Ang 1369)

This salok (couplet) clarifies the above salok."

For more information please search the forums or msg pjs veer ji, N30, etc. as they have alot of knowledge.

And secondly i find it amusing how you believe "Sikhism" and not "khalsaism" The Khalsa wasnt something Guru Gobind Singh whipped out because he was bored. The Khalsa and Sikhi are not 2 different entities like you make them out to be. They are one and the same. The framework for 1699 was laid by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji. Guru Nanak is the founder of the Khalsa. The Khalsa are Sikhs and the Sikhs are the Khalsa, they are one. One becomes a Sikh by taking Amrit. Amrit is a must for each and every person who wants to call him/herself a Sikh as ordered by Guru Gobind Singh in the puratan rehitnamas. Before Khande Bate Da Amrit there was Charn Amrit which was given by the Gurus (Bhai Gurdas Vaaran make this clear as well). Amrit and the Khalsa wasn't something started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Everything was started by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji.

IMO you seem to be one of those "Sikhs" that Giani Thakur Singh talks about in his Katha. He met a Sikh who had a picture of Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji in his house. Giani Ji said to him "that's a beautiful picture you have, why not buy one of Guru Gobind Singh Ji as well to put beside Guru Nanaks" And the so called sikh responded "i dont beleive in Guru Gobind Singh i only beleive in Guru Nanak because Guru Nanak was "thanda" and Guru Gobind Singh was "garm". Please lose this mentality, Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji are one and the same, they are the same Jot

[misl shaheedan]

Check this link as well:

This has been discussed before, you can read through the above link and make up your mind.

Anyways im sorry to the original poster for hijacking the thread. I will not respond again unless absolutely necessary.

[AmarjitKaur]

To all females who have been bullied or ridiculed by other women (always due to the other womans insecurities) please share your experiences.

Before turning to sikhi I was called beautiful by many and was targeted by especially my sister. Since turning to sikhi it has become even worse and I cannot even speak to my sister without her making a degrading comment to make herself feel more secure.

I never comment on other people's looks, it is who the person is that matters. In my eyes my sister is a complete manmukh and I feel like her comments are so tinged with jealousy that they are affecting me.

I have to constantly pray for protection against her and cannot stand being in her presence, I feel drained and can sense her jealousy so strongly that it sickens me. She can't stand to see me happy and this can be said of many of my friends I have had aswell. I'm on the verge of giving up being friends with women or being nice to my sister and even speaking to them at all as they affect my sikhi so much by hurting me and making me worry about what they're going to do or say next.

I never have this problem with guys, unless they are my friends husbands or boyfriends, I find that many men want they're wives to be number one as much as their wives want to be, so they hate on women they perceive to be better in some way.

Just keep one thing in mind when you see others reacting the ways you referred above.

"YOU are the daughter of Guru Gobind Singh jee" they are not. That alone should raise your confidence enough, that you should never feel weak in front of the whole world' men or women looking down upon you.

I look different now than before and I face the sikhs,non-sikhs, men, women as you do. I know people who feel bad about what they couldn't be, and I know people who think what a face. But all I know by being what I am, I am following my Guru's hukam and they are not.

I am being the good daughter of my father and they are not.

Being the good daughter myself doesn't give me right to look down upon others, but it gives me confidence to keep my spirits up.

[Guest NY3HY3]

Yes i do it reminds me of my Sikh heritage, my faith and oneness of our creator

Our religion is as much scientific as it is spirtual. Physiologically, there are many bennefits to keeping your hair. The way I see it, someone who cuts their hair loses their sense of empowerment. Since cutting your hair does have a negated effect to your body, you must be doing it for 'fashion.' Being a sheep is much easier when it comes to following the flock. I know you are going to say your interpretation of sikhi is different. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. What I am saying is where do you draw the line between manmat and gurmat? When you are justifying a certain act based on your own prefernce it becomes manmat. I'm not here to tell you to cut your hair.

[genie]

Sorry to divert from the thread to the original poster.

Yes i know which quotes you refer to. There are many things in Gurbani which are misquoted by shararti people to advance their manmat.

One such quote is:

kbIr pRIiq iek isau kIey Awn duibDw jwie ]

kabeer preeth eik sio keeeae aan dhubidhhaa jaae ||

Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.

BwvY lWby kys kru BwvY Grir mufwie ]25]

bhaavai laa(n)bae kaes kar bhaavai gharar muddaae ||25||

You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

This quote is one of the most misquoted quotes from Gurbani. It has been discussed on these forums many times and any doubts people have have been cleared by forum members.

From http://www.sikhism101.com/node/148

"There is one Salokh of Bhagat Kabeer Ji which is often misquoted by mischievous people trying to justify the un-Godly act of shaving or trimming their hair.

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

"O Kabeer! When you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart. You may have long matted hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||"

(Ang 1365)

These lines criticize both those who have long matted hair or shave their head completely in order to achieve union with God. In these lines, the question of keeping or not keeping Kesh is not the case. Similarly Guru Ji says:

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੰਡਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੇਸ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਕਾਂਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥੧੦੧॥

"O Kabeer! You have not shaved your mind, so why do you shave your head? Whatever is done, is done by the mind; it is useless to shave your head. ||101||"

(Ang 1369)

This salok (couplet) clarifies the above salok."

For more information please search the forums or msg pjs veer ji, N30, etc. as they have alot of knowledge.

And secondly i find it amusing how you believe "Sikhism" and not "khalsaism" The Khalsa wasnt something Guru Gobind Singh whipped out because he was bored. The Khalsa and Sikhi are not 2 different entities like you make them out to be. They are one and the same. The framework for 1699 was laid by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji. Guru Nanak is the founder of the Khalsa. The Khalsa are Sikhs and the Sikhs are the Khalsa, they are one. One becomes a Sikh by taking Amrit. Amrit is a must for each and every person who wants to call him/herself a Sikh as ordered by Guru Gobind Singh in the puratan rehitnamas. Before Khande Bate Da Amrit there was Charn Amrit which was given by the Gurus (Bhai Gurdas Vaaran make this clear as well). Amrit and the Khalsa wasn't something started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Everything was started by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji.

IMO you seem to be one of those "Sikhs" that Giani Thakur Singh talks about in his Katha. He met a Sikh who had a picture of Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji in his house. Giani Ji said to him "that's a beautiful picture you have, why not buy one of Guru Gobind Singh Ji as well to put beside Guru Nanaks" And the so called sikh responded "i dont beleive in Guru Gobind Singh i only beleive in Guru Nanak because Guru Nanak was "thanda" and Guru Gobind Singh was "garm". Please lose this mentality, Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji are one and the same, they are the same Jot

Misl shaheedan, you proved my point. When gurbani talks about one who has shaved his head and one who has kept his matted hair uncut yet forgotten their creator it explicts states in my view that it dosent matetr if you haev a bald head or long uncut as long as you worship the creator it doesnt matter what you appear as on the outside because there are many so called hindu Sadhu's, sants, sikhs, muslims, buddhists, chrsitians etc who may look religious on the outside but are very different in their mind and thinking.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa as a martial order he didnt say all Sikhs must become Khalsa did he? To me Khalsa's arent same as Sikhs they are different entities. When you become baptised you take on a bana and code of conduct with has almost nothing to do with gurbani. Some pseudo-Sikhs want them to be seen as both the same entity yet there is fundamental differences (ie a mainstream Sikh follows guidance and rehit from only the SGGS ji, whereas Khalsa has to think about dasam granth.. has to follow rehit mayada drawn up by SGPC in 1950s). To be a Sikh (student) of the guru (SGGS Ji) it is NOT mandatory first you gotta keep your hair uncut then sit in the congregation of Sikhs and be a follower, anyone who says different is lost and doesnt know the message gurbani is stating time and time again about appearances meaning nothing its all about keeping your creator in your mind at all times. Do you think Guru Ji would turn away hindu or muslim devotee's (first Sikhs ever) of the era cos they didnt have uncut hair?

[Guest harminderkaur]

Staying on topic. Bhen Ji, I am sorry to hear about what your going through. i have gone through some of the similar experience but some amazing experience also since I have begun walking on this path:

My father is a committee member at the local Gurudwara so I am well known by the community and i talk to everyone so well liked also. Being a daughter of a committee member and part of the punjabi school I was encouraged to go on stage and talk about Sikhism. No matter how bad or good I did, I was always received with excitement when I began and hugs and blessings when I left Darbar Hall. I changed from a Sikh that was unaware of her religion to a Sikh that wears a turban (almost all the time). A few memories from after I started wearing the turban:

• a random lady came up to be while I was eatting langar and told me she was proud of me
• my mom not talking to me but when I didn't change back to old me, she came in my room and tried to tie the turban and me and my father laughing at her.
• White people asking me if I hurt my head in the nicest way possible (I knew all of them) and us laughing about it for a minute, before I would take that opportunity to educate them. now same people question me when I don't wear my turban and scold me.
• the tears when you mess up your turban the first, something no one can forget.

Long story short, keep at it. Things well change. Ignore the negative, focus on the positive.

[Guest harminderkaur]

Sorry to divert from the thread to the original poster.

Misl shaheedan, you proved my point. When gurbani talks about one who has shaved his head and one who has kept his matted hair uncut yet forgotten their creator it explicts states in my view that it dosent matetr if you haev a bald head or long uncut as long as you worship the creator it doesnt matter what you appear as on the outside because there are many so called hindu Sadhu's, sants, sikhs, muslims, buddhists, chrsitians etc who may look religious on the outside but are very different in their mind and thinking.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa as a martial order he didnt say all Sikhs must become Khalsa did he? To me Khalsa's arent same as Sikhs they are different entities. When you become baptised you take on a bana and code of conduct with has almost nothing to do with gurbani. Some pseudo-Sikhs want them to be seen as both the same entity yet there is fundamental differences (ie a mainstream Sikh follows guidance and rehit from only the SGGS ji, whereas Khalsa has to think about dasam granth.. has to follow rehit mayada drawn up by SGPC in 1950s). To be a Sikh (student) of the guru (SGGS Ji) it is NOT mandatory first you gotta keep your hair uncut then sit in the congregation of Sikhs and be a follower, anyone who says different is lost and doesnt know the message gurbani is stating time and time again about appearances meaning nothing its all about keeping your creator in your mind at all times. Do you think Guru Ji would turn away hindu or muslim devotee's (first Sikhs ever) of the era cos they didnt have uncut hair?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa because after Guru Ji left for Sachkand there would be no one to initiate people into the sikh faith by giving amrit. When Guru Ji prepared and gave us Amrit he set up a rehat Maryda that people that take the amrit must follow. If you don't take Amrit you are not a true Sikh because since the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Sikhs were initiated into the faith by being administrated Amrit during which they also promised to follow the teachings of the Guru. So if you want to be a Sikh, take amirt and follow the rehat mayrada set up by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and maintained by SGPC/Panj Pyare in general.

Since Sikhs were no longer first generation, Guru Gobind Singh Ji had to create a term to identify true Sikhs and that term was Khalsa. I don't have to explain that term because I am sure everyone is aware of it.

As for the word Sikhs, Sikhs are anybody that goes to Guru Ji and wants to learn a little bit about the religion. And when they are ready to believe in that religion they ask to be initiated and start really following it.

[GhostWriter]

Genie though you are entitled to your view and i agree with some parts. here is a Rehitnama from Bhai Desa Singh says:

pRQm rihq Xih jwn KMfy kI pwhul Cky ] soeI isMG pRDwn Avr n pwhul jo ley ]

To drink the Ambrosial Nectar of the Khanda (Amrit) is the primary instruction for the Sikh. He who abandons all other initiations is truly a great Sikh.

[Only five]

Sorry to divert from the thread to the original poster.

Misl shaheedan, you proved my point. When gurbani talks about one who has shaved his head and one who has kept his matted hair uncut yet forgotten their creator it explicts states in my view that it dosent matetr if you haev a bald head or long uncut as long as you worship the creator it doesnt matter

You have misintrepreted the shabad. Like one member has said the matted hair and shaved head people are both being critized by Bhagat Kabeer ji. Also in your reasoning you put your own views in which twist the shabad to fit your lifestyle(the exception parts). I can take one tuk and say look it says to drink wine. In Anand Sahib the paat it tells us to be inwardly pure and outwardly pure. Also in Japji Sahib on ang sung 4 it tells us whatever you do to the body affects the soul. Since Guru Nanak Dev ji not Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji told SIkhs to keep hair uncut then a person who cuts his hair off and calls him/herself a Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then they are polluted from the outside and inside because the love for satguru comes from the atma and the mind becomes the servant. But for the Sikh that cuts hair is where the mind(manmat) has become the teacher and the atma's need for Waheguru is abandoned and Gurbani has become the excuse for a lifestyle of your choice. Before Bhai Mardana could be with Guru Nanak Dev ji, he was told by Guru Nanak Dev ji, not to cut his hair.

what you appear as on the outside because there are many so called hindu Sadhu's, sants, sikhs, muslims, buddhists, chrsitians etc who may look religious on the outside but are very different in their mind and thinking.

The false are not cared for. The false are not looked at and then you drum your own chest in pride. The sharp path as laid down in Anand Sahib the paat is followed. the difficult path that only some attain. Pure from the inside and pure from the outside.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa as a martial order he didnt say all Sikhs must become Khalsa did he?

This is one of the biggest mistakes in Sikhi a Sikh can make. Not to mention what is created is also destroyed, so it can't be termed as the Khalsa, if it eternal. Something that is khalsa (pure) does not have a beginning or end. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji gave us the Khalsa Panth. He began the teaching and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji put the seal on it by giving his followers Amrit and then TAKING Amrit himself from the Punj Pyare and taking on the name Singh. This is the clear indication that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji wanted every Sikh of his to take Amrit(he took it himself). By not taking Amrit from the Punj Pyare and he/she claims to be Sikh, then they have said I am higher than Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. He has given the order not to come to him without uncut hair and carrying weapons. The jot of Guru Nanak Dev ji and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji are one and the same.

To me Khalsa's arent same as Sikhs they are different entities. When you become baptised you take on a bana and code of conduct with has almost nothing to do with gurbani.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji the call comes everyday in Japji Sahib to obey his(Waheguru) Hukam. So why read his Bani and call it good, and then call his Hukam bad. To separate his Bani and Hukam is a fools game. Waheguru sees everyone equally, but some have the lower way(Khalsa) and others get the golden ticket(which makes them the Brahmins). What injustice God do you believe in? There is One God One Guru One Shabad, all the same and one. Tell me how I can become one of Gods favorite like you? I want the golden ticket.

Some pseudo-Sikhs want them to be seen as both the same entity yet there is fundamental differences (ie a mainstream Sikh follows guidance and rehit from only the SGGS ji, whereas Khalsa has to think about dasam granth.. has to follow rehit mayada drawn up by SGPC in 1950s). To be a Sikh (student) of the guru (SGGS Ji) it is NOT mandatory first you gotta keep your hair uncut then sit in the congregation of Sikhs and be a follower, anyone who says different is lost and doesnt know the message gurbani is stating time and time again about appearances meaning nothing its all about keeping your creator in your mind at all times. Do you think Guru Ji would turn away hindu or muslim devotee's (first Sikhs ever) of the era cos they didnt have uncut hair?

Present us with Gurbani that say Sikhs have different guidance or even a rehit. Also Sikhs does not mean student. It means disciple, servant. What does a disciple do or a servant, he/she listens and follows the Master(Guru). If you believe it means student, then you are saying that one day you will become much higher than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji(Waheguru). Many students in university pass their teachers and become the teacher of the teacher. A student can prove a teacher wrong. Again which makes the Sikh, Waheguru and Waheguru the student. Also by saying SIkh means student then everyone in this world is a Sikh, whether they learn anything in this world. Guru Nanak Dev ji says not to bow to idols, but hey since Sikh means student then that person is still a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev ji.

The teaching of the Khalsa was started by Guru Nanak Dev ji.

[Mehtab Singh]

to "genie"

Keeping hair is equivalent to acceptance of God's will, thereby leaving one's body the way it was made by the creator. Removing hair from any part of your body is a direct statement to God "hey, You made a mistake while making me, so I am going to rectify it, because I know better than You". Anyone who believes in God, who has firm faith that God is above and beyond any error/mistake, that He is infallible, that He all-perfect and made us perfectly, anyone who truly and completely surrenders to God's will and is ready to pay any price for it, will NOT, will NEVER disrespect a single hair on his/her body. In Sikhi, cutting hair is called as "kesh katal karne", which literally means to murder the hairs. You wanted written and authentic references, you have them from Gurbani and also Rehitnamas. Khalsa is NOT different from Sikh, its the highest blessing of a Sikh. In case you thought that only a Khalsa keeps unshorn hair and a Sikh free to cut/trim it, sorry to burst the bubble, but that's not the case. Moreover, the very first Rehit for a Sikh, as per Bhai Gurdas Ji, is to take Amrit. So there, one more written and authentic statement. Yes, Gurujee would never reject non-Sikhs who came to Him, because He sees all as human beings. But lets not forget that the place that His Sikhs have for Him is reserved only for them, without any discrimination towards non-Sikhs. Gurujee always urged (but never forced) His shardhalus to take Amrit.

In the end, like I always say, its your life and your body. Its your call and decision as to what is your priority in life, to follow your mind and its logics, or to follow the orders of Gurujee. One can remove hair from one's body and still tell the world "I am a Sikh". By all means, no one is going to take anyone to court for that. The sad thing is, such a person is fooling and deceiving only one person, and that is himself/herself. Therefore, do what you see best for yourself. Whether you see it in the light of Gurbani or not is your choice. The people on this board can only advise, discuss and present their opinions. What you do is totally up to you because no one on this forum is going to be rewarded cash if you decide to keep unshorn hair, and also no one is going to be prosecuted if you decide otherwise. The choice is totally yours, to believe what you want to, and to do what you want to.

May Gurujee guide you.