Reply To Harinder On Topic Vishnu Avtar Or Gurmukh Sikhs

[Harinder_Singh]

Below is Krishan's *deleted* behaviour with Gopis.

http://www.sridasam....tion=Page&p=700

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥

स्वैया ॥

SWAYYA

ਦੈ ਆਗੂਆ ਪਿਛੂਆ ਅਪਨੇ ਕਰ ਪੈ ਸਭਹੀ ਜਲ ਤਿਆਗ ਖਰੀ ਹੈ ॥ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਕੈ ਪਾਇ ਪਰੀ ਬਹੁ ਬਾਰਨ ਅਉ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤ ਕਰੀ ਹੈ ॥

दै आगूआ पिछूआ अपने कर पै सभही जल तिआग खरी है ॥ कान्ह कै पाइ परी बहु बारन अउ बिनती बहु भांत करी है ॥

All the them came out of water, concealing their secret parts with their hands; they fell at the feet of Krishna and requested him in various ways;

ਦੇਹੁ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਮਰੀ ਸਰ੍ਹੀਆ ਤੁਮ ਜੋ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਛਲ ਸਾਥ ਹਰੀ ਹੈ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਹਿਹੋ ਮਨਿ ਹੈ ਹਮ ਸੋ ਅਤਿ ਹੀ ਸਭ ਸੀਤਹਿ ਸਾਥ ਠਰੀ ਹੈ ॥੨੬੫॥

देहु कहयो हमरी स्रहीआ तुम जो करि कै छल साथ हरी है ॥ जो कहिहो मनि है हम सो अति ही सभ सीतहि साथ ठरी है ॥२६५॥

And asked him to return the stolen clothes; "We have said, whatever was in our mind; give us the clothes quickly, we are shivering with cold."265.

ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਬਾਚ ॥

कान्ह बाच ॥

Speech of Krishna:

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥

स्वैया ॥

SWAYYA

ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਕਹੀ ਹਸ ਬਾਤ ਤਿਨੈ ਕਹਿ ਹੈ ਹਮ ਜੋ ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਹੋ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਚੂਮਨ ਦੇਹੁ ਕਹਯੋ ਚੁਮ ਹੈ ਹਮ ਹੂੰ ਤੁਮਹੂੰ ਗਨਿਹੋ ॥

कान्ह कही हस बात तिनै कहि है हम जो तुम सो मन हो ॥ सभ ही मुखि चूमन देहु कहयो चुम है हम हूं तुमहूं गनिहो ॥

Krishna said, "See, whatever I shall say now, all of you will have to accept that; let me kiss the faces of all; I shall kiss and you count, all of you;

ਅਰੁ ਤੋਰਨ ਦੋਹੁ ਕਹਯੋ ਸਭਹੀ ਕੁਚ ਨਾ ਤਰ ਹਉ ਤੁਮ ਕੌ ਹਨਿਹੋ ॥ ਤਬਹੀ ਪਟ ਦੇਉ ਸਭੈ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਇਹ ਝੂਠ ਨਹੀ ਸਤ ਕੈ ਜਨਿਹੋ ॥੨੬੬॥

अरु तोरन दोहु कहयो सभही कुच ना तर हउ तुम कौ हनिहो ॥ तबही पट देउ सभै तुमरे इह झूठ नही सत कै जनिहो ॥२६६॥

Let me touch the nipple of your breasts, otherwise I shall behave more badly with you; I am speaking truth that I shall give you the clothes only after doing all this."266.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥

स्वैया ॥

SWAYYA

ਫੇਰਿ ਕਹੀ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੀ ਇਕ ਬਾਤ ਕਹੋ ਸੰਗ ਤੇਰੇ ॥ ਜੋਰ ਪ੍ਰਨਾਮ ਕਰੋ ਕਰਿ ਸੋ ਤੁਮ ਕਾਮ ਕਰਾ ਉਪਜੀ ਜੀਅ ਮੇਰੇ ॥

फेरि कही मुख ते हरि जी सुनि री इक बात कहो संग तेरे ॥ जोर प्रनाम करो करि सो तुम काम करा उपजी जीअ मेरे ॥

Krishna said again, "Listen to one thing of mine and bow before me with folded hands because all of you abide now in my heart like the supernatural powers of the god of love;

ਤੌ ਹਮ ਬਾਤ ਕਹੀ ਤੁਮਸੋ ਜਬ ਘਾਤ ਬਨੀ ਸੁਭ ਠਉਰ ਅਕੇਰੇ ॥ ਦਾਨ ਲਹੈ ਜੀਅ ਕੋ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਹਸ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਕਹੀ ਤੁਮਰੋ ਤਨ ਹੇਰੇ ॥੨੬੭॥

तौ हम बात कही तुमसो जब घात बनी सुभ ठउर अकेरे ॥ दान लहै जीअ को हमहूं हस कान्ह कही तुमरो तन हेरे ॥२६७॥

I have said this to all of you for doing it, seeing the proper occasion and solitude for it; my heart has become satisfied on seeing you and receiving the donation of beauty from all of you."267.

[N30S1NGH]

The first quotation is NOT about physical body, its about the jeev inside the body. Kaal means death and being accountable to DHARAM RAI.

True Gurmukhs japp Naam day and night and their lekhaa is torn and they dont have to face dharam rai.

Infact, Brahma, vishnu and Mahesh and subject to JAMMMMM.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

Now, dont u become Ram Rai and translate jamm as time. Jamm means JAMMM.

And yes, if u want to debate, please Quote Gurbani. Anything outside of Gurbani is subject to mistakes. I quoted Gurbani to prove Ram and Krishan were subject to Kaal.

Sikhi beleives in worship of Akaal(nirgun) vahiguroo whereas sargun roop avtars of vahiguroo - avtars are praised at many places in gurbani but at the same time, sargun roop of vahiguroo which is being over praised in culture/soceity those times is condemned, like this shabad as it could led to idol worshiping. It's a cautionary shabad:

Gurbani supports meta reality, gives updesh to many surti, many jiv at different state of mind.

The shabad you posted is interpreted bit differently in puratan translations of sri dasam granth sahib translations by narayan singh ji, first teekar of sampuran sri dasam granth sahib.

Here is an translation of this shabad:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

Please see attachment Anyone at moment of death, one who is concentrating on name of these deities or concentrate on their roop and stuck in it, meaning stuck in sargun saroop made out of 5 elements, they will be stuck in cycle of kaal and jam (death and birth). This meaning is pretty consistent with other declarations in gurbani which talks about moment of death

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥: Goojaree || Ant kaal jo lashamee simarai ...: Goojaree. At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1|| O sister, do not forget God's Name. ||1||Pause|| At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2|| At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3|| At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4|| At the very last moment one who thinks of God, and dies in such thoughts, says Trilochan, that man will be liberated; God will abide in his heart ||5||2|| (sggs 526).

*DELETED*

[kam1825]

Singh now that you have posted the same quote everywhere do you want to change any praise for Krishna in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji such as the shabads by some of the Bhagats?

[Harinder_Singh]

Sikhi beleives in worship of Akaal(nirgun) vahiguroo whereas sargun roop avtars of vahiguroo - avtars are praised at many places in gurbani but at the same time, sargun roop of vahiguroo which is being over praised in culture/soceity those times is condemned, like this shabad as it could led to idol worshiping. It's a cautionary shabad:

Gurbani supports meta reality, gives updesh to many surti, many jiv at different state of mind.

The shabad you posted is interpreted bit differently in puratan translations of sri dasam granth sahib translations by narayan singh ji, first teekar of sampuran sri dasam granth sahib.

Here is an translation of this shabad:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

Please see attachment Anyone at moment of death, one who is concentrating on name of these deities or concentrate on their roop and stuck in it, meaning stuck in sargun saroop made out of 5 elements, they will be stuck in cycle of kaal and jam (death and birth). This meaning is pretty consistent with other declarations in gurbani which talks about moment of death

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥: Goojaree || Ant kaal jo lashamee simarai ...: Goojaree. At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1|| O sister, do not forget God's Name. ||1||Pause|| At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2|| At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3|| At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts, will be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4|| At the very last moment one who thinks of God, and dies in such thoughts, says Trilochan, that man will be liberated; God will abide in his heart ||5||2|| (sggs 526).

*DELETED*

U people are doing a mistake by thinking I am AKJ. I am NOT AKJ. I hardly attent their smagams. I keep in contact with only a handful of AKJ Singh who keep full rehit and are pro-khalistan movement.

The present AKJ are just ruining Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jee's name. They also do nindiya of Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindravale. I am a HUGE FAN of Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindravale and I compare him with Baba Banda Singh BAhadur.

[Kaljug Singh]

MODS:

If at some point you delete this thread, can you please ensure that the translations provided by NeoSingh are kept visible on this site?

Ta,

K.

[GPS]

I lost my post while modifying.

I was saying that Raja janak has been cited as Gurumukh in Gurbani whereas demigods have not been cited as Gurmukhs.

For further clarification, i may add that gurbani says that these deities were under the influence of maya. Hence they were deluded and had limitations.A person under the influence of maya is not gurmukh and cann't help otehrs to be freed from clutches of maya.

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ॥

Devi devaa mool hai Maya

Maya is the origin of demigods

ang 129

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਸਭਿ ਦੇਵਾ ॥

Maya mohe devi sabh devaa

Maya has deluded all demigods

ang 227

Ram and krishna have been described as incarnations of vishnu and not Lord himself.

[N30S1NGH]

GPS, it appears you missed my point of my intial post The reason i m mentioned raja janak because despite of him being ansa avtar which is considered basic avtar as it represents one aspect/attribute of vahiguroo through an deity , despite of that he is been given title of gurmukh.

Ram and Krishan are consider puran hari avtar by puratan samparda's and taksal (as you can see previous translations from japji sahib by  sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale), puran hari avtar are highest level in terms of kala and in terms of vahiguroo transcendtings its attributes as sargun saroop..

Ok going back now, if basic avtar- ansa avtar can be given title of gurmukh in gurbani based on his deeds, then one can imagine gurbani stance (bhaita daie svayes, varan etc) on puran hari avtars in terms of respect where they deserved in each respective yugas.

[GPS]

A gurmukh is that who has transgressed maya by elimination of ego.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਹੈ ਮਨੁ ਚੜਿਆ ਦਸਵੈ ਆਕਾਸਿ ॥

Gurmukh antar sahaj hai man chariaa dasvai aakaas

Within the Gurmukh is intuitive peace and poise;

his mind ascends to the Tenth Plane of the Akaashic Ethers

ang 251

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

Gurmukhi ouankaari sach samaaiaa:

The Gurmukh is absorbed in the True, One Universal Being

ang 1285

On the contrary those who have not been able to transgress maya are not gurmukhs.

[N30S1NGH]

Also going back to kalas, i spoke to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale regarding 14, 16 and limitless kala of puran hari avtars. He advised each previous yugs needs an avtar which specific number of kalas. 14 or 16 kalas of avtars are not to be seen as negative or limited as its up to vahiguroo to decide how much kala is needed to transcedent in avtar in order to make nourish specific yug. This is no competation here guys between puran hari avtars or to say - my puran avtar is better than yours, this attitude brings dvait and puts an limit of vahiguroo ultimately. If Satyug, dvapar, treta yugs only need specific kalas in avtars, why would vahiguroo ji transcedent its full attributes/kala into previous avtars? This is no where to be seen as competition. Kalyug needed an avtar of sarab kala bharpoor, thats why vahiguroo transcedented sri guru nanak dev ji.

Both parties agree sri guru nanak dev ji is highest of all but one party maintains respect to previous avtars of previous yugas and consistent with gurbani but other party refuse to do so and think its a moral duty to mock previous avtars of previous yugas by playing with semantics and attempts hijack sikh dharam by pushing it as another abhramaic dharam or semetic religion.

[GPS]

Invocation of chaubis avtar in Dasam Granth is praise of akal purakh and does not support theory that god descends to earth as an Avtar.He is creator of these avtars and is supreme authority.

mihmw n jwnih byd ] (894-4, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

mahimaa na jaaneh bayd.

The Vedas do not know His greatness.

bRhmy nhI jwnih Byd ] (894-4, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

barahmay nahee jaaneh bhayd.

Brahma does not know His mystery.

Avqwr n jwnih AMqu ] (894-4, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

avtaar na jaaneh ant.

Incarnated beings do not know His limit.

prmysru pwrbRhm byAMqu ]1] (894-5, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

parmaysar paarbarahm bay-ant. ||1||

The Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God, is infinite. ||1||

894 SGGS ji