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If God Is Present In Stone Idol Also , Then Whats Wrong With Worshipping It ?


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Balbir Singh, you are the one spreading anti-Gurmat here. Taking one line out of the entire Shabad and twisting its meanings to suit your own manmat is not an act of a Sikh. Gurbani is replete with Shabads which speak against idol worship. I never wrote that God is not in idols but its worship is not Gurmat. Human being is much better than a stone since human jooni is the highest then why shouldn’t one worship a human body over an idol? Hating an idol and rejecting its worship are two different things and i thought you were old enough to know the difference. Here is the entire Shabad and tell me where does it advocate to worship idols or where does the word “moorat” in Gurbani refer to idols?

ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਆਇਓ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ॥

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਓ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਨਉ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਇਸੁ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਾ ॥

ਦੀਖਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਕਾਨੀ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਾ ॥1॥

ਪੰਚ ਚੇਲੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਏ ਇਕਤ੍ਰਾ ਏਕਸੁ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਏ ॥

ਦਸ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ਤਬ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਗੀ ਥੀਏ ॥2॥

ਭਰਮੁ ਜਰਾਇ ਚਰਾਈ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਏਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਪੇਖਿਆ ॥

ਸਹਜ ਸੂਖ ਸੋ ਕੀਨੀ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਜੋ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖਿਆ ॥3॥

ਜਹ ਭਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਹਾ ਆਸਨੁ ਬਾਧਿਓ ਸਿੰਗੀ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਡੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਨੀ ॥4॥

ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਭੇਟੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੈ ॥

ਸੇਵਾ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ ॥5॥11॥132॥

The Shabad describes true yoga of Gurmat and all of the yogic words are redefined. Pay attention to the Rahao pankti which clearly says that Satguru through Shabad showed the true way to yoga in which Guru’s wisdom, following hukam, seeing God everywhere, singing bani and doing vichaar of baani is the essence. Such a person is true devotee of God and Guru Sahib says that he forever remains humble in his service. Moorat refers to true character or an ideal character of a true devotional bhagat. Words ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ literally mean licking feet which is a metaphor for being humble and having nimarta. If the word moorat referred to an idol then you are insinuating that Guru Sahib advocates going to hindu temples and licking feet of idols. Your understanding of bani is either very poor or you are intentionally trying to confuse the Sikhs who are less acquainted with Bani.

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however i posted that no one shud require or provide anything

it was a different thing and very important to answer balbir singh and bijla singh did it well. if moorat word comes in any shabad that doesnt mean that it is moorti pooja.

and here bhagat kabeer ji clearly denying moorti or stone pooja

ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੇ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ੯ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ੫

aasaa sree kabeer jeeo kae panchapadhae 9 dhuthukae 5

Aasaa, Kabeer Jee, 9 Panch-Padas, 5 Du-Tukas:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥

paathee thorai maalinee paathee paathee jeeo ||

You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

jis paahan ko paathee thorai so paahan nirajeeo ||1||

That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥

bhoolee maalanee hai eaeo ||

In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

sathigur jaagathaa hai dhaeo ||1|| rehaao ||

The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਡਾਰੀ ਫੂਲ ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ ॥

breham paathee bisan ddaaree fool sankaradhaeo ||

Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.

ਤੀਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਤੋਰਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਉ ॥੨॥

theen dhaev prathakh thorehi karehi kis kee saeo ||2||

When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||

ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ ॥

paakhaan gadt kai moorath keenhee dhae kai shhaathee paao ||

The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.

ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥

jae eaeh moorath saachee hai tho garrhanehaarae khaao ||3||

If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||

ਭਾਤੁ ਪਹਿਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਲਾਪਸੀ ਕਰਕਰਾ ਕਾਸਾਰੁ ॥

bhaath pehith ar laapasee karakaraa kaasaar ||

Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies

ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੋਗਿਆ ਇਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੪॥

bhoganehaarae bhogiaa eis moorath kae mukh shhaar ||4||

- the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4||

ਮਾਲਿਨਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜਗੁ ਭੁਲਾਨਾ ਹਮ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

maalin bhoolee jag bhulaanaa ham bhulaanae naahi ||

The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken.

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਹਮ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਖੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥

kahu kabeer ham raam raakhae kirapaa kar har raae ||5||1||14||

Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon me. ||5||1||14||

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Bijla Singh Jee!

I hope you keep the discussion live and stick to the topic.

You wrote "Taking one line out of the entire Shabad and twisting its meanings to suit your own manmat is not an act of a Sikh."

Is reading the entire Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee again and again is not manmat? Please provide one reference from the true Gurus where they have suggested so. I will be grateful.

My Gurdev suggests receiving so much through ONE Word but you are feeling uneasy with one Vaak from the Guru. Why?

Please listen. Guru Naanak Dev Jee is singing.

ਚੰਚਲ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਭਉ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ॥

चंचल मति तिआगि भउ भंजनु पाइआ एक सबदि लिव लागी ॥

Chanchal mati tiyagi bhao bhanjanu paaiaa aik sabadi liv laagee. SGGS Ang 1232

Why you and your preachers suggest jumping from one Vaak to another restlessly? Is this that gives you need of thousands of Akhand Paaths?

Quote "Hating an idol and rejecting its worship are two different things . . ."

And you are the master of manipulating the mind when not to hate the idol but always rejecting its worship.

Quote "Human being is much better than a stone since human jooni is the highest . . ."

My Gurdev says all is Godly. Nothing is higher or lower.

Please provide a reference from your Guru and oblige.

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Guru Arjan Dev Jee.

ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਆਇਓ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ॥

जोग जुगति सुनि आइओ गुर ते ॥

Jog jugati suni aaio gur te.

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

मो कउ सतिगुर सबदि बुझाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Mo ko satigur sabadi bujhaaio. ||1|| rahaao || SGGS Ang 208

Gurdev is thankful getting, resolved the Gur of one Sabad.

May I ask why preachers suggest to read whole Granth repeatedly to resolve the Gur of one Sabad?

*****

Sunny_love_kirtan Jee,

Thanks for referring the Stanza from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee.

Paahan means stone and not the stone idol as per your referred translation.

May I ask why so many flowers and petals are plucked and offered in Gurdwaaraas?

*****

This is the same Jogee Gurdev is singing about as referred by Bijla Singh Jee.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.

ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਭੇਟੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੈ ॥

ऐसा जोगी वडभागी भेटै माइआ के बंधन काटै ॥

Aisaa jogee vadbhaagee bhetai maaiaa ke bandhan kaaTai.

ਸੇਵਾ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ ॥੫॥੧੧॥੧੩੨॥

सेवा पूज करउ तिसु मूरति की नानकु तिसु पग चाटै ॥५॥११॥१३२॥

Sevaa pooj karao tis moorati kee naanak tisu pag chaaTai. SGGS Ang 208

Only ignorant can misinterpret the reverend Guru's Vaak or misunderstand it?

Balbir Singh

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*****

Sunny_love_kirtan Jee,

Thanks for referring the Stanza from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee.

Paahan means stone and not the stone idol as per your referred translation.

May I ask why so many flowers and petals are plucked and offered in Gurdwaaraas?

*****

wow this is so ridiculous. you can clearly tell that in what context bhagat ji is talking about stone. worshiping stone IS stone idolizing.

u have not provided any thing which support ur views even 1 %

u asked why we offer flowers in Gurdwaras?

as i mentioned earlier and bhagat kabeer ji supporting it

AND I GUESS YOU NEED TO READ THE SHABAD AND ITS MEANING CAREFULLY BEFORE GETTING TOO EXCITED AND JUMPING AND POSTING

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥

paathee thorai maalinee paathee paathee jeeo ||

You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

jis paahan ko paathee thorai so paahan nirajeeo ||1||

That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥

bhoolee maalanee hai eaeo ||

In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

sathigur jaagathaa hai dhaeo ||1|| rehaao ||

The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

for your i have highlighted few words

1. You said pahan means stone not stone idol, if you read translation it is translated as Stone Idol

2. we offer flowers in gurdwara because Satgur Jaagta Hai Deo

offering flowers to imaginary pictures of guru sahib is manmat so as stone or statues.

when you read the word moorat in gurbani, it reffers to word moorat in MOOL MANTAR and not the moorti or a statue or an imaginary image.

i am so papi that i im replying to this post after saying that no one shud do it. But we cannot ignore ur ignorance.

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Sunny_love_kirtan Jee!

You wrote "You said pahan means stone not stone idol, if you read translation it is translated as Stone Idol."

Experiencing the reverend Guru's Vaak is possible by listening Him.

The translator's grace will be showering by reading his translation.

Quote "we offer flowers in gurdwara because Satgur Jaagta Hai Deo"

Strange. Others offer flowers and their idol is stone and lifeless. You offer flowers and your idol is Satgur Jagta Hai Deo.

Kabeer Jee is saying that in each and every leaf there is life.

Wow! Plucking flowers and offering such Bali to your Jaagtaa Gurdev is accepted in Gurdwaaraas.

Quote "when you read the word moorat in gurbani, it reffers to word moorat in MOOL MANTAR and not the moorti or a statue or an imaginary image."

Please listen. Guru Naanak Dev Jee is singing.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥

ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस इक मूरति आपे करता कारी ॥१२॥

Brahmaa bisanu mahes ik moorati aape kartaa kaaree. SGGS Ang 908

Gurdev is singing about ik Sargun Moorati, not about Akaal.

Akaal does not have any Moorati.

Balbir Singh

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I hope you keep the discussion live and stick to the topic.

Follow your own advice first and stick to the topic.

Is reading the entire Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee again and again is not manmat? Please provide one reference from the true Gurus where they have suggested so. I will be grateful.

Answer the question first. Don’t go off topic. Provide proofs that I am advocating akhand paaths or it has anything to do with this topic. Reading baani is a pious act and Gurbani supports it. Sikhs read 5 banis in the morning. If this is not manmat then reading entire Guru Granth Sahib is also not manmat. Many panktis like “Gurbani Gavoh Bhai...” and “Aeyo Sunan Paran Ko Bani..”advocate reading bani but not a single verse suggests taking one line out of context and twisting its meaning like you did.

My Gurdev suggests receiving so much through ONE Word but you are feeling uneasy with one Vaak from the Guru. Why?

My objection is not towards the pankti but towards you misinterpreting it. You are contradicting yourself line after line. If so much is received through Shabad (one word) then why worship an idol which serves no purpose? Your own statement rejects your own manmat. Bhagat Kabir Ji makes it clear that stone is carved out and fashioned into an idol but it still remains a stone, a lifeless object.

Why you and your preachers suggest jumping from one Vaak to another restlessly? Is this that gives you need of thousands of Akhand Paaths?

Who are my preachers? Do I have a group of paathis? What proofs do you have to justify your accusations? You are the one jumping from one Shabad to another without discussing it or proving your point. Now are you diverting from topic. I guess your mind did not mature with your age.

And you are the master of manipulating the mind when not to hate the idol but always rejecting its worship.

Shabad you posted was not even remotely related to idol worship. When proven wrong you diverted the topic and started posting your mumbo jumbo. Hating and worshipping are two different things. Even a child knows the difference. Sikhs follow rehat of Guru Sahib which rejects idol worship. Neither did Guru Sahib worship idols nor did they instruct us to do so.

My Gurdev says all is Godly. Nothing is higher or lower.

Please provide a reference from your Guru and oblige.

My Guru is Guru Granth Sahib and that is the only Guru in the world. If your guru is someone else then he is wrong. Manukha jooni is the only way to get liberation and meditate upon Naam. This is why it is superior. Here is just one couplet.

ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥

May I ask why preachers suggest to read whole Granth repeatedly to resolve the Gur of one Sabad?

Why did Guru Sahib give us the Granth if we should read only one Shabad? Why are you suggesting Sikhs to not read Bani? You have not provided a single proof from bani that idols or stones should be worshiped.

I think the original poster has received his answer and it is not worth wasting my time on you.

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Balbir Singh you are not even able to understand a common sense thing. One of the Basic principle of Sikhism is not doing moorti pooja or idol worship, not even imaginary pictures of guru sahibs. Why are we explaining you advance stuff when u fail to understand the basic thing and still arguing on something as bijla singh said a child could tell a difference.

Topic Should be closed.

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This is completely ridiculous and very sad that someone that calls himself a Sikh will even say idol worship is gurmat. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is clear that idol worship of stone is not the Guru's way. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji makes this stance aswell in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji.

This Shabad is by Guru Gobind Singh in Dasam Granth on Pannaa 132

nrwj CMd ]

naraaj shha(n)dh ||

Nraaj Chhand

kihE pRBU su BwiK hoN ] iksU n kwn rwiK hoN ]

kehiou prabhoo s bhaakh ho(n) || kisoo n kaan raakh ho(n) ||

I say only what the Lord said to me. Narrating His words, I shall have no sympathetic concern for anyone.

iksU n ByK BIj hoN ] AlyK bIj bIj hoN ] 34]

kisoo n bhaekh bheej ho(n) || alaekh beej beej ho(n) || 34||

I would rather not associate myself with a particular garb. I shall sow the seeds of the Name of the Unaccountable Lord.(34)

pKwx pUj hoN nhIN ] n ByK BIj ho khIN ]

pakhaan pooj ho(n) nehee(n) || n bhaekh bheej ho kehee(n) ||

I shall not worship stones. I shall have no liking for a particular guise.

AnMq nwmu gwie hoN ] pr~m purK pwie hoN ]35]

ana(n)th naam gaae ho(n) || paraam purakh paae ho(n) ||35||

I shall sing the name of the Infinite Lord. I will meet the Supreme Lord.(35)

jtw n sIs DwirhoN ] n muMdRkw suDwirhoN ]

jattaa n sees dhhaariho(n) || n mu(n)dhrakaa sudhhaariho(n) ||

I shall neither wear matted hair on my head, Nor shall I put on ear-rings in my ears.

n kwn kwhU kI DroN ] kihE pRBU su mY kroN ] 36]

n kaan kaahoo kee dhharo(n) || kehiou prabhoo s mai karo(n) || 36||

I pay no attention to anyone else. I shall execute whatever the Lord has bidden me.(36)

BjoN su eyk nwmXM ] ju kwm srb TwmXM ]

bhajo(n) s eaek naamaya(n) || j kaam sarab t(h)aamaya(n) ||

I recite only the Name of the One Lord. Which is useful everywhere.

n jwp Awn ko jpo ] n Aaur Qwpnw Qpo ] 37]

n jaap aan ko japo || n aour thhaapanaa thhapo || 37||

I shall not meditate on another's name except the Lord's. I shall never install any type of (statue or idol)'(37)

ibAMq nwm iDAwie hoN ] prm joiq pwie hoN ]

bia(n)th naam dhhiaae ho(n) || param joth paae ho(n) ||

I shall meditate on the Name of the Infinite Lord. I shall attain the Supreme Light (The Eternal Being).

n iDAwn Awn ko DroN ] n nwm Awn aucroN ] 38]

n dhhiaan aan ko dhharo(n) || n naam aan oucharo(n) || 38||

I shall neither concentrate on anyone else, Nor shall I repeat the name of anyone except that of the Lord.(38)

qv~k nwm r~iqXM ] n Awn mwn m~iqXM ]

thavaak naam raathiya(n) || n aan maan maathiya(n) ||

I shall only be imbued with Your Name. I shall not accept the doctrine of any other faith.

pr~m iDAwn DwrIXM ] AnMq pwp twrIXM ] 39]

paraam dhhiaan dhhaareeya(n) || ana(n)th paap ttaareeya(n) || 39||

I shall meditate on the name of the Paramount (Supreme Being), And I shall eradicate innumerable sins.(39)

qumyv rUp rwicXM ] n Awn dwn mwicXM ]

thumaev roop raachiya(n) || n aan dhaan maachiya(n) ||

I shall be permeated into Your Form. But I shall not be gratified for a boon given by somebody else.

qv~k nwm aucwirXM ] AnMq dUK twirXM ] 40]

thavaak naam ouchaariya(n) || ana(n)th dhookh ttaariya(n) || 40||

I shall repeat Your Name only, And I shall obliterate countless sufferings.( 40}

This thread needs to be closed because nindiya of Gurbani is happening by pro stone worshippers to push their own manmat on Sikhs here.

What I am going to say now is said with all the love in the world and please those that say idol worship is gurmat, don't take it as an offense because all I am doing is explaining your stand here. Since stones can be worshipped on the bases that God is in the stone then since God is in dog and human feces it also can be worshipped and if a stone idol worshipper says no to this very disgraceful state, then he/she is contradicting their own beliefs.

Edit: Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's bani is also very clear on this topic.

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Bihaagraa on Pannaa 556

mÚ 1 ]

ma 1 ||

First Mehla:

ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ]

hi(n)dhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaa(n)hee ||

The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ]

naaradh kehiaa s pooj karaa(n)hee || a(n)dhhae gu(n)gae a(n)dhh a(n)dhhaar ||

As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

pwQru ly pUjih mugD gvwr ]

paathhar lae poojehi mugadhh gavaar ||

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

Eih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhwru ]2]

ouhi jaa aap ddubae thum kehaa tharanehaar ||2||

But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||

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