Please Confirm, Re:Gravesend Situation

[Singhstah]

VahegurooJiKaKhalsaVahegurooJiKiFateh Sangat jeeo,

As the other thread was closed I had to start a new one, although its stated in the locked thread the showing "did not take place" (past tense), we have to ask why this webpage, http://www.thescreenonthegreen.com/#/gravesend-open-air-cinema/4541311084 (which was also linked on the original thread) has a listed showing of sholay at the Gurdwara Sahib on the 28th July?? Is it happening or not?

[o_singh]

Correct it is planned to show on the 28th, but according to an e-mail circulating from a mr graham who is the events organiser at gravesham borough council it has been cancelled . There will be no showing at any location , but there is still less than 1 week , anything can happen

VahegurooJiKaKhalsaVahegurooJiKiFateh Sangat jeeo,

As the other thread was closed I had to start a new one, although its stated in the locked thread the showing "did not take place" (past tense), we have to ask why this webpage, http://www.thescreenonthegreen.com/#/gravesend-open-air-cinema/4541311084 (which was also linked on the original thread) has a listed showing of sholay at the Gurdwara Sahib on the 28th July?? Is it happening or not?

[West London Singh]

So lets get this straight ; Now that all you brave warriors have stopped a movie being shown OUTSIDE in the car park of a Gurdwara (which made you very angry indeed) will you all be celebrating by eating mutton, chicken and bacon rashes INSIDE THE ACTUAL LANGAR HALL of the bhatra gurdwara in Southampton (which for some reason didn't make you angry at all) followed by an evening of alcohol and dance INSIDE THE ACTUAL PREMISES of nearly every ramgharia gurdwara in the UK (which for some reason didn't make you angry at all) ???

Strange fruit. :huh:

[g5johal]

west london singh ur right we need to stop this ramghria n bhatreh from doing these anti sikhi things in te gurus houses because it will look like a joke becuase when a non sikh sees this going on they will think that the relgion is werid and the people of the relgion are hypocritesbecuase the sikhs are against alcohol and meat but it is consumed in gurdwaras? how can we awnser this question if a musilm or a non sikh asks this. the enimies of the sikhs can use this as a advanatge for them and make sikhi look like a joke

[sall]

WJKK WJKF

Surprising the admins are pretty quick to close that thread - I haven't experienced admin intervention so fast since I've registered on this site.

Anyway the thread served it purpose paritally- the biggest issue we have is BEADBI -- which continues as pointed out by West London Singh.

Issue is protocol ------ what should be and shoudln't be allowed in a Gurdwara premises and complex. We have no much needed Akal Takht reps in this country to ensure protocol is pursued and formed for Gurdwaras which don't have it such as Gravesend.

Is it possible to have some ideas or at least 5 or 10 points which form protocol of a Gurdwara here..??.without turning this debate into a mockery just valid points for protocol only please. I can almost guarntee the culprits are reading these threads too and they do need help as they've lost touch with basic principles and would never openly admit it.

[GurSa Singh]

So lets get this straight ; Now that all you brave warriors have stopped a movie being shown OUTSIDE in the car park of a Gurdwara (which made you very angry indeed) will you all be celebrating by eating mutton, chicken and bacon rashes INSIDE THE ACTUAL LANGAR HALL of the bhatra gurdwara in Southampton (which for some reason didn't make you angry at all) followed by an evening of alcohol and dance INSIDE THE ACTUAL PREMISES of nearly every ramgharia gurdwara in the UK (which for some reason didn't make you angry at all) ???

Strange fruit. :huh:

These are very valid comments. Some of us managed to finally get some interest from the Prabhandak committees of Singh Sabha Southall and Singh Sabha London East on the issues of beadbi. When we presented the current issues of Southampton and Gravesend to them, they were on the phone to Gravesend immediatly. However, the response we got from the committees about Southampton were along the lines of "Eh Ta Bhatray Da Kam Ih a" and they basically dismissed the issue.

This may be off topic. I agree with the above comments, that our people are selective in deciding what is an issue or not. When taking things into context, I think most of us know the issues of Party Halls, Meat, Alcohol, Smoking within the buildings of Gurdwaras far outweighs other current issues in the UK. We are stuck in a web of castes and prejudices , which acts as shield for those committees and sangat who are able carry on abusing the Gurdwara. Unless people snap out of it, the beadbis will carry on under the banner of a "Bhatra", "Ramgharia" or "Ravidasi" Gurdwara. If you look at the list of the 15 Gurdwaras where beadbi happens, then 6 fall under Ramgharia, 2 fall under Bhatra and 1 falls under Ravidassi. Therefore we also have an issue where the isolation of the castes acts as a hedge for these committees to carry on unchallenged.

[Pyara]

VahegurooJiKaKhalsaVahegurooJiKiFateh Sangat jeeo,

As the other thread was closed I had to start a new one, although its stated in the locked thread the showing "did not take place" (past tense), we have to ask why this webpage, http://www.thescreenonthegreen.com/#/gravesend-open-air-cinema/4541311084 (which was also linked on the original thread) has a listed showing of sholay at the Gurdwara Sahib on the 28th July?? Is it happening or not?

Cancelled. Spoke to the box office. Any doubts, ring the woodville hall box office 01474 337774.

The website has not been updated as it's only done fornightly....

People need to start getting in a responsible frame of mind, ring up and find out for themselves... got to stop waiting for someone else to update or make the phone calls....things will not change unless EACH panth-dardi individuals act..

[SouthamptonBhujangi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DUM1iaSfZs

We did this video because it shows that these things actually do happen in gurdwaras. Many of us have heard about it but dismiss thinking that they might just be rumours targeting smaller Sikh communities.When a group of us Southampton locals decided to highlight this beadbi to the wider community we really thought that the wider community would unify to help us fix this Gurdwara and start the ball rolling to stop other Gurdwaras (Bhatra or not!) from allowing meat and alcohol in the gurdwara.

We were really surprised about the response on Sikhsangat, the thread died within the day. I cant see how after seeing the video people can feel complacent. The expectations that Sikh Organisations will intervene was a far dream.

As a community we have handed the keys of our gurdwaras to manmat committee members who we cannot be bothered to even challenge anymore. The committee members dont have a leg to stand on. Its nothing to do with targeting a community, that Gurdwara is against Gurdwara Maryada, its simple, but even then we are willing to question.

If we put Caste before Sikh principles then dont be fooled that you are a Sikh. The main principles of Sikhi is not to believe in caste. Then what makes you think that your Sikhi is pure because of your caste and lineage? Is you caste based Sikhi so pure that you cannot get it dirty by questioning committee members who you think are of lower castes? Is the Guru Granth Sahib Ji at the Bhatra Gurdwara different from the Singh Sabha?

[punjab5]

Any action taken has to be within the legal and Institutional framework of the UK. There are a number of 'watchdog' bodies organisations that have a responsibility for governing various activities, i.e. OFCOM etc. The one for registred charities is the CHARITY COMMISSION. A majority of Gurdwara's are registred charities with a written constitution and thus fall within the remit of this Commission. The role of the Commission is to ensure that the charity is being 'run' according to its constitution and the funds are not being mis-used.

If people are series about this issue, then suggest that in the first place, members of the particular Gurdwara, even 1 or 2, need to read the constitution first.

My understanding is that all Gurdwara's are registred as places of worship and all have their objectives as promting Sikhism. By having any Meat or Alchol on their premises they are undermining their charitable objective and being a place of worship. The Sikh reyat Maryda defines what can be a place of worship and what is not allowed inside a Gurdwara. Thus these Gurdwaras are in breach of their consitutions and should be reported to the Charities Commission. Being in breach, they would loose their charitable status and thus all the benefits that go with this, or stop this practise.

[Pyara]

Any action taken has to be within the legal and Institutional framework of the UK. There are a number of 'watchdog' bodies organisations that have a responsibility for governing various activities, i.e. OFCOM etc. The one for registred charities is the CHARITY COMMISSION. A majority of Gurdwara's are registred charities with a written constitution and thus fall within the remit of this Commission. The role of the Commission is to ensure that the charity is being 'run' according to its constitution and the funds are not being mis-used.

If people are series about this issue, then suggest that in the first place, members of the particular Gurdwara, even 1 or 2, need to read the constitution first.

My understanding is that all Gurdwara's are registred as places of worship and all have their objectives as promting Sikhism. By having any Meat or Alchol on their premises they are undermining their charitable objective and being a place of worship. The Sikh reyat Maryda defines what can be a place of worship and what is not allowed inside a Gurdwara. Thus these Gurdwaras are in breach of their consitutions and should be reported to the Charities Commission. Being in breach, they would loose their charitable status and thus all the benefits that go with this, or stop this practise.

Punjab5 Ji,

You've outlined probably the most constructive approach I have come accross regarding tackling the meat, sharab, party hall issue and it seems realistic to adopt.

There's a lot to digest when you start reading into the charity commission. Even I've lost myself in the detail

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Charity_requirements_guidance/Charity_essentials/Public_benefit/pbreligion.aspx

However fundamentally, what we are saying is that if the Gurdwara is set up as a charity whose objective is to promote Sikhism then they are in breach of that objective if the go against the core principles of Sikhism (serving of meat, sharab in the Gurdwara complex) which can be reported to the charity commission.

Charities Act 2006. Section 2(3) of the Charities Act states that

... ways in which charities can promote a religion include:

1) the provision of places of worship;

2) raising awareness and understanding of religious beliefs and practices;

3) carrying out religious devotional acts;

4) carrying out missionary and outreach work.

We have the Akal Takht Rehit Maryada, Hukumnama and Sandesh to back what is acceptable as "religious beliefs and practices", "places of worship" for Sikhs.