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Beadbi At Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Graham Street, Birmingham


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This Gurdwara committee wants threats directed at them. They will try to provoke you in anyway possible. They will provoke Satkaar Sevadars, with holding off the meeting and keep changing the date. Out smart these gurnindaks, by making a specific date, set up in the the Gurdwara board room. Do not hold the meeting outside the Gurdwara where these gurnindaks can walk out of the meeting. These guys are all about making a mockery out of the sevadaars that will hold the meeting with them. Then they want the mocking to be followed by the sevadaars cursing them or threating them or assaulting them. Again don't let them agitate you. If you do, then they won. These guys don't mind getting sworn at or getting threatened because they have no shame and it will help their cause of getting rich off of sangats money. They want to look like the innocent poor old victims, that were just trying to run a Gurdwara and some fanatics would not let them and used force against them.

The Satkaar Sevadars need to be ready for this meeting. The only excuse this committee has to continue with manmat practices in the hall is shortage of funds. So be prepared with an indepth analysis of their financial sheets. The caste issue, which is no issue, they bring up, is a diversion tactic they use. They will bring it up in the meeting because they have no shame. Be ready for it, by presenting facts of history and current stand offs that were demostrated against other Gurdwaras that were going against Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji. The burden of proof is on the sangats head here. These shameful people will sit there and tactfully through a billion exuces out. Be ready for all of them.

Another tactic these people will use is saying we need couple of weeks to make a final decision about what took place in the meeting. These are all lies. These guys have already made up their minds and that is to continue being gurnindaks. But this meeting needs to be held as soon as possible because then the rest of the sangat will know what these guys are up too, after the complete disregard of Gurmat. Again don't use any violence. Approach this issue with meetings and protesting when needed. Don't let another event take place that involves manmat practices. Again use peaceful means.

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The only hypocrites are those who post negativity about thier sikh brothers Ramgarhia on this forum and in general. This matter is going beyond a joke in that Ramgarhias are being targetted. Like it

Veerji, Welcome to the forum. From your personal viewpoint. Is the serving of alcohol, meat and acceptance of alcohol fuelled parties in a hall dedicated to a great panth rattan Baba Jassa Singh Ra

Malkeet Singh Ji, apparently the Akal Takht had a meeting which lasted three days to clarify eating meat amongst sikhs where all the senior scholars were asked to give a verdict, after the three days

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Whoever opens a Guru ghar in order to make a profit from it for personal gain, seriously needs to sort their priorities out. I know the Gurudwara won't run on air and water, but to reduce it to a money-making enterprise is very cynical and......weird.

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In My Opinion,

Be very careful when dealing with these corrupt committees (Get police involved! And DO NOT travel to India!). These corrupt committees are gangsters like the ones in Punjab and Delhi Etc. They lie to police and medias and play all sorts of dirty tricks. Get the law involved. Also expose their money siphoning illegal methods they have used to collect and pocket cash. There are many legal avenues that can be taken here. One, they cannot use Guroo Sahib, Guroo Sahib Jees Beautiful Names, Sree Nishaan Sahib And Sikhi to do anti-Gurmat practices (alcohol, meat, smoking, dancing on premises Etc). Two, also get the agencies involved to see who they are renting the car park to, for how long, and how much money they generate and have generated. I am confident the agencies will see that the committees are pocketing thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds on a continuous basis. The agencies will see that the committees are using Guroo Sahib, the front of Guroo Sahib Jees Beautiful Names, Sree Nishaan Sahib And Sikhi to actually run a very corrupt business. They are using Guroo Sahib, Guroo Sahib Jees Beautiful Names And Sikhi to do illegal immoral activities to Cash money into their pockets, and they do all this while simultaneously going against the principles of Gurmat BUT in the name of Gurmat! What sinners!

The people who host them on television discussions etc are the friends of these corrupt committees, do not keep much hope in them. They have been doing a lot of paaps themselves. Many corrupt committees themselves intentionally go on talk shows etc to ‘represent’ ‘Sikhi’, this is done so people say ‘why would they be corrupt, look they are ‘representing Sikhi’; this is a tactic they use to fool the public! They speak of Sikhi to fool the public, and they intentionally will wear an ‘orange under turban’ etc., to fool the public, so they can loot behind the scenes! Bhogal seems to be one of these! He is friends with the ‘Host(s)’ as well on the discussion program(s). They will Quote Sree Gurbaanee to try to ‘emotionally blackmail’ the audience! This is their evil tactic! Corrupt Golak Chors Badals/Makkar, Corrupt Golak Chors Sarnas and their Corrupt Golak Chor ‘offsprings’ Also Do This! And then behind the scenes they loot and do paaps! Only the authentic Gurmat lovers will speak up against and correct such paaps. Those looking for egotistical posts such as ‘Jathedaars’ of councils etc., place no hope in them. They further work for the status quo (even if it includes evil) and they are usually corrupt committee brown noses. They make numerous excuses. Also confirm if the corrupt committee members are indeed overseas (also confirm if they have used Guroo Sahib Jees Golak for their trips if they are indeed travelling; corrupt committees use Guroo Jees Golak as their personal wallets to do all sorts of Paaps including ‘feeding themselves’ alcohol and meat, travelling, shopping, and all sorts of sins!), and confirm if they are indeed overseas for they often lie to delay (they delay to make evil schemes to get away with corruptions and to attack Truth Lovers!) Its time for a clean up!

These committees use the Gurdwara Sahib, Guroo Sahib, Guroo Sahib Jees Beautiful Names, Beautiful Sree Nishaan Sahib And Beautiful Sikhi, and charity status to actually run a very corrupt hidden money source which the committee pockets (in cash). They have to have certain classes, langar etc., to make sure certain requirements are met to remain ‘out of the eye’ of the agencies and Sangat. So they do these as a ‘front’. When you go deeper, you will find many corruptions including pocketing a lot of money while simultaneously going against the principles of Gurmat! Often they intentionally take on debt so they can tell Sangat to donate (which they steal in ratio), and often they have no debt, but just steal (or lie about debt). Either way, the corrupt committees steal if they are in debt or not. It is a tactic for them to take on debt (they can emotionally blackmail the Sangat to donate more, which they then loot in percentage).

Get the law agencies involved to do full investigations into the committee as well! They are using the charity status to do a lot of Paaps in the Beautiful Names Of Guroo Sahib, In The Name Of Beautiful Sikhi Under The Sree Nishaan Sahib Of Guroo Sahib! One CANNOT AND MUST NOT USE Guroo Sahib, Guroo Sahib Jees Beautiful Names, Beautiful Sree Nishaan Sahib And Beautiful Sikhi To Do Corruptions Against Gurmat! The corrupt committees also email themselves all sort of fake emails and make lies of phone calls etc to taint innocents. These are common tactics these corrupt committees use. It is these corrupt committees who need to be afraid of being exposed! The corrupt committees try to scare innocents!

It is time that such paaps are cleaned up all around the world! The whole world will fall in love with True Khalsa Dharma! The corrupt committees have been doing major sins for very long, they have an ‘invisible support system’ from Demon Nakali Dal Badals, Demon CongRSS Sarnas, CongRSS, Nakali Dals and their brown noses. But there are more Truth Lovers all around the world (Including Non-Sikhs!) who will also work towards exposing such evil! Get as much media, law agencies etc involved!

The corrupt try to taint innocents using their ‘connections’ with all sorts of corrupt people including their connections with their ‘media friends’ Etc. But Truth will Remain Truth! And Truth Will Rise All Over The World !!!!! THE WHOLE WORLD WILL FALL IN LOVE WITH TRUE KHALSA DHARMA !!!!!

Guroo Sahib Ang Sang !!!!!

Guroo Sahib Kirpa Karan !!!!!

Keep Strong !!!

Chardhi Kala !!!

KEEP SAFE !!!!!

(To corrupt committees and Evil Bodies: Do not use Guroo Sahibs name to do Paaps. Guroo Sahib is bigger than self !!! Guroo Sahib came to serve Humanity !!!!! Don’t be a rotten fruit that spoils the basket of Humanity !!! Paap is Real !!!!! Guroo Is Real !!!!! The Whole World Will Fall In Love With True Khalsa Dharma !!!!! Stop Your Evils !!!!!)

THE WHOLE WORLD WILL FALL IN LOVE WITH TRUE KHALSA DHARMA !!!!!

TRUTH WILL RISE ALL AROUND THE WORLD !!!!!

DHAN DHAN THE ETERNAL PALACE OF GUROO SAHIB JEES BEAUTIFUL GURMAT !!!!!

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Whoever opens a Guru ghar in order to make a profit from it for personal gain, seriously needs to sort their priorities out. I know the Gurudwara won't run on air and water, but to reduce it to a money-making enterprise is very cynical and......weird.

According the RST's published accounts for year end Apr 2008, (signed by Mr PS Bhogal as Gen Sec) the specific income generated from the Jassa Singh Hall was £39k and the total Gurdwara income (inc Hall) generated was £313k. In 2008, the Jassa Singh hall only generated 12% of the total Gurdwara income for the RST. £274k worth of income was generated from the Gurdwara Sahibs's normal activities.

As at 2008 RST has a healthy total c/fwd funds balance of £1.4 million. The contribution from the Jassa Singh Hall to this fund balance is pretty insignificant.

RST have a sustainable "business" model without any economic justification for immoral income to be generated from the Jassa Singh Hall.

The only justification I can make out for the need of the Hall as a party hall is pure Manmat.

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Once again the committee are hiding behind the law of the land to protect there interests. Instead of discussing with their fellow brothers about the issues. I wouldnt be surprised at the meeting if they had a lawyer and police office present. The law here does not understand our Gurdwara are ultimately run by the akaal takht and we should be following their rules. Like the Vatican rules are applied to all catholic churches so they should abide by them.

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I understand that people want to clean up Gurdwaras you will get those who want grind the caste axe in all this. Southall Youth's last post is typical of this.

If we are going to be straight up then we also have to face up to the fact that a lot of Jat Sikhs own off licenses and feel no way about selling booze and fags every day of the week and then making contributions of this money at the local Singh Sabha Gurdwara on a weekend. No one bats an eye lid at this.

Plus, lets be frank, it is Jatt Sikhs who are legendary for their heavy drinking and meat eating habits (kahn bukray, peen sharabaan put Jattan de). So the type of behaviour demonstrated by the Ramgarhia people here is hardly unique amongst Panjabis and the vast majority of weddings that take place in most Gurdwaray all seem to be followed by a drinking and kebab eating session afterwards (from what I've witnessed). Usually, this takes place whilst the sacred langar is still being digested in people's bellies. Is it disgraceful if this is done on Gurdwara premises, but I can't help feel the fact that it happens at all is pretty disgraceful, whether on Gurdwara premises or not. I mean it just seems like normative behaviour of Panjabi Sikhs now?

That being said, hopefully, this satkaar campaign will help clean things up, I hope they have the balls to address the other issues highlighted above too?

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According the RST's published accounts for year end Apr 2008, (signed by Mr PS Bhogal as Gen Sec) the specific income generated from the Jassa Singh Hall was £39k and the total Gurdwara income (inc Hall) generated was £313k. In 2008, the Jassa Singh hall only generated 12% of the total Gurdwara income for the RST. £274k worth of income was generated from the Gurdwara Sahibs's normal activities.

As at 2008 RST has a healthy total c/fwd funds balance of £1.4 million. The contribution from the Jassa Singh Hall to this fund balance is pretty insignificant.

RST have a sustainable "business" model without any economic justification for immoral income to be generated from the Jassa Singh Hall.

The only justification I can make out for the need of the Hall as a party hall is pure Manmat.

It is clear that RST's financial position is robust enough to comfortly survive with zero income from the Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgharia Hall. As GurSa Singh has stated above, there appears to be little financial reasoning to have the immoral income stream via the hall. As per Dr Bhogal's exact words on Panth Time, the hall was gifted by members of the "Sangat" 20 years ago. Therefore, one can only assume RST have no financial commitment to meet regarding the hall, except for running costs.

Along with key deciding factors such as Gurbani, Gurmat, Akal Takth Sahib Sandesh, Jathedar Ji's direct advise, Gurdwara Maryada and even Economics, the question arises:

why does RST feel that there is a necessity to promote parties, meat and alcohol in the hall???

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That being said, hopefully, this satkaar campaign will help clean things up, I hope they have the balls to address the other issues highlighted above too?

The only thing that will clean things up is losing the attitude that someone else will fix the problems. There's no fun in clouding issues by identifying other issues. And there's no fun in challenging others to fix something we all have to fix collectively.

If the Gurdwaras start to practice what they preach then I'm sure Sikh Society will change for the better. Work on strengthing the roots.

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Back to the collective responsibility issue... Satkaar is no A-Team or jathebhandi...Satkaar is every Sikhs duty...

We seem to possess great expertise in highlighting issues but lack commitment/desire to physically do anything about the issues. So when someone makes a stand, please do not just wait in isolation and watch the show, please also make a stand too. This may mean that we are challenged or taken out of our comfort zones...but if individual Sikhs are not going to take initiative then who is?

Over the last 6 years I have read some inspiring posts on sikhsangat.com and I have followed the postings of some amazingly passionate users. I don't personally know them but I feel that I share a common issue with them and that is to give the Satkaar (Respect) to Sikhi that we know is deserved. But sometimes I feel these amazingly passionate users still remain on the back-bench and do not propel themselves forward in the real world

Please do not fall into a trap of seeing Satkaar as some kind of formal bunch of people, rest assure it's not. Satkaar is every Sikh's sewa, every Sikh who feels that our Guru's principles are being abused and manipulated. Satkaar is about the grass roots of Sikhi and is about all those voices of the sangat that go unheard.

I beg you all, let's stop looking at others in our community to drive change and be the drivers of that change ourselves. It's not impossible... Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj bestowed that ability upon his Sikhs.

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Dal singh raises a valid point - there are other problems, that are connected, however, if you try and suggest that they are the same, then i'm afraid it just comes across as obstructive (and i'm sure your not).

These people that own off licenses and the likes, its different problem. Whilst the Gurdwara movement is happening, its best to concentrate on that, then, and if, with Maharaj kirpa the sevadaars are successful, then we can all come together and strategise on how best to move forward with the problem you mentioned.

Remember, selling as an individual is a much more complex and nuanced difficulty than the outright consumption on Gurdwara property.

Rather than run before we walk or whatever the cliche is, how about we all concentrate on taking things one at a time and deal with the most pressing issues first?

Tav Parsad ji puts it perfectly, what happens in our Gurdwaray has a knock on effect and the results will filter down.

Back to the topic at hand, it looks promising that RST have agreed to a meeting, I'm sure that the people attending the meeting will be level headed and won't react to the half-truths and exaggerated claims that will fly at them. From my limited knowledge in my line of work, I know that it is generally not a common occurrence to have any suspected firebombings of cars, and roughing up of individuals (especially with a religious context) leaked to the mass media. So if the RST lot say this is happening, perhaps the Satkaar team ought to ask for the Crime Report Reference Number (every case with the police is given one of these). This way, Satkaar can promise to assist the investigation and if any news is uncovered they can report it using this reference number. Call the RST out, lets see how many "crimes" have really been committed against them. Its not an outlandish request, its a simple appeal to help catch whoever supposedly behind these and if anything, harming the Satkaar movement by hiding behind the name.

I've heard that the Sikh Channel have strong links with the RST so it will be especially interesting to hear how neutral the debate is, whether its simply a chance for the RST committee to throw out allegations (that may be defamatory in nature - Satkaar's legal team should be watching for this) or whether they allow a full discussion, without tainting it. The other question is whether certain 'sensitive' topics will be addressed, the ones Sarbha Panjab ji has mentioned for example, and more importantly, whether they will be shown in the final, edited version that airs on Saturday evening....

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What are the committee playing at? 7 weeks to come back on the question of whether they accept Akaal Takht's Sandesh? Also, the fact they're not willing to meet the sangat - seriously, I think they're taking the mick with the sangat and aren't taking the whole beadbi issue seriously.

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Did anyone attend the Panth Time recording last night at RST Birmingham? Would be interesting to get some feedback on the kind of "mood" the committee portrayed on camera and if the issue of the beadbi allowed in the Hall was actually discussed on the show.

I suppose the rest of us will have to watch tonight's broadcast on Sikh Channel at 7pm to find out. Forget the X Factor final or Strictly Come Dancing!

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My masi and masard are sewadars at this gurughar. The committee are spreading some false propoganda regarding this issue. They are making out that they have recieved threats from militant sikh groups and are being victimised because of caste. They are not clearly communicating the issue to the local sangat. The local sangat who attend rst are being led to believe that they are under threat from outside forces. I think satkaar need to clarify that these claims are false and the committee are just atempting to deflect the beadbi of mjsr hall by scaremongering.

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    • https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/afghanistans-sikhs-to-make-choice-between-converting-to-islam-or-leaving-country-report/articleshow/87204174.cms As the security scenario in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate, Sikhs -- a community that was already in a dire situation before the collapse of the government -- practically have to make a choice between options of "converting to Sunni Islam or run away" from Afghanistan, said a report.The community, which once numbered in the tens of thousands, has been ruined and devastated by years of emigration and death, driven by both systemic discrimination and an uptick in fanatical religious violence
    • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59015889   Alec Baldwin: What are prop guns and why are they dangerous? Published 4 hours ago Share IMAGE SOURCE,GETTY IMAGES On a film set, a real-life tragedy has happened. Police say US actor Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza on a film set in New Mexico. They were working on the film Rust. Tributes have been paid to Ms Hutchins, 42, while Mr Baldwin is said to be distraught. One local paper found him in tears outside Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office. An investigation is under way and we don't yet know what went wrong. A spokesman for Mr Baldwin said there had been an accident on the set involving the misfire of a prop gun with blanks. Such incidents are rare and the news has stunned the film industry. The use of firearms on set is subject to stringent safety standards. "On the film I recently made, even my plastic gun, I had to sign out, sign in every day," said Australian actor Rhys Muldoon. "So that's why this particular case is so incredibly baffling." Despite sounding innocuous, both prop guns and blanks can be dangerous. Here's what we know about them. What is a prop gun? Blanks are used in the film industry to imitate live ammunition. The reason they are so convincing is that blanks are essentially modified real bullets. While the term "bullet" is commonly used to describe what is loaded into weapons, more properly it is a cartridge that is loaded: a self-contained ammunition package made up of a casing holding an explosive powder that when fired, blasts out a projectile, or bullet. Blanks differ because although they use explosive they don't use a projectile. A prop gun could mean a range of items, from non-functioning weapons to cap guns. But it can also mean a real weapon, or one adapted for firing blanks. Together they add authenticity to productions - fire a blank using a prop gun and you'll get a loud bang, a recoil and what's known as a muzzle flash, the visible light created by the combustion of the powder. Has this kind of incident happened before? Yes. You may remember Brandon Lee, the actor son of martial arts legend Bruce Lee. Brandon Lee died aged just 28 in 1993 while filming The Crow, when a prop gun which mistakenly had a dummy round loaded in it was fired at him. Dummy rounds contain no explosive charge and in this case were used to film a close-up. When blanks were loaded part of the dummy round remained in the gun. After Lee was shot, the cameras kept rolling. It was only when he did not get up at the end of the scene that those on set realised something was wrong. In another incident, in 1984, US actor Jon-Erik Hexum started joking around on the set of a television show after being frustrated by delays in filming. He loaded a revolver with a blank, spun the chamber, put the gun to his temple and fired. Unlike Lee, he was not killed by a projectile, but rather the force of the blast was strong enough to fracture his skull. He died days later in hospital. How can blanks and props be used safely? Hexum's death highlights a problem with blanks - even without a projectile they pack enormous power. Adding to the risk, some film sets use extra powder to make the visual impact stronger. Film sets usually have strict rules about the use of prop guns. Specialists provide weapons for use on film sets and advise on their use. "There's basic safety measures on every set," said Mike Tristano, an armourer who has worked with Alec Baldwin in the past. "You never point a gun, even if it is not a firing gun, at anyone else. I'm at a loss how this could have happened and how it could have done that much damage." A common shot in film shows an actor firing into the camera and Steven Hall, who has worked on films such as Fury and The Imitation Game, says it only happens with safeguards. "If you are in the line of fire... You would have a face mask, you would have goggles, you would stand behind a Perspex screen, and you would minimise the number of people by the camera, " he said. "What I don't understand in this instance is how two people have been injured, one tragically killed, in the same event." Others working in film wondered why, at a time when gun effects can be cheaply added using computers, blanks are still being used at all. "There's no reason to have guns loaded with blanks or anything on set anymore. Should just be fully outlawed," tweeted Craig Zobel, an actor and director whose credits include Westworld and Mare of Easttown. "Prop guns are guns," TV writer David Slack tweeted. "Blanks have real gunpowder in them. They can injure or kill - and they have. If you're ever on a set where prop guns are treated without proper caution and safe handling, walk away. "No show or shot is worth risking people's lives," he added.
    • Gurbani tells parents not to impose on their children this way. Perhaps somebody knows the location or I'll see what I can find. It's either in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Varaan Bhai Gurdas Ji.  Once they know you are able to leave and have the backing of Gurmat perhaps you will find you have new bargaining power for the behaviors that are acceptable in your family. You don't have to be the man of your house just be a man of your house, who sticks to his guns, backs with Gurbani, and speaks the truth for Sarbat Da Bhala. You are not beholden to them. If they want that extra icing in life called multigenerational support of extended family they have to create an environment for all three of you to joyfully have families there. And earn your consent. It is a great thing to do, provide for the elders...when they respect you and help you create your own joyful life.  I am only now rekindling certain familial relationships after being brainwashed my whole life that I was a man at birth, responsible for my mother, and going to be her retirement. It's sick and deranged. I actually want to do all those things. They way people twist it into slavery is disgusting though, and I will have no part in one sided contracts honored only by me. A big turning point is when I realized they all expected that to be at the expense of me having my own life, family, etc. And that as a larger family none of them were worth anything. A bunch of shallow, nindaks, assimilated into white supremacy before my eyes. No thanks. Hypocritical. Lying. Scheeming.  Next.  Family is a team. It's everyone playing the same game, by the same rules, and working together or it's not. Either we all win or it's not working right.  Bro. You can move. You can take a sibling with you. The flamingos leave their babies do they not? Guru Nanak Dev Ji took off on foot did he not? You can stay too and lay it down bro. Calm, cool, calculated, chardikala and correct.  They get rude, bring in Sangat to witness and support you. It's your family business, be a pro. The parents don't listen and learn something off you go. If you respect your parents, respectfully tell them what they need to do to have the life they want. If it includes you. 
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