Niddar'S New Book In The Masters Presence.

[genie]

Whilst the person in this instance (the shashtar vidya fella) is most probably dodgy (going by the reports of alcohol sightings, etc), I completely agree with you. During my brief time on this website, I've noticed how quickly some elements in our community slander somebody for even an innocuous point of view - even if said opinion isn't anti-Sikhi but purely misunderstood. There's no attempt to engage or understand, and there's simply no differentiation between someone genuinely anti-Sikh and somebody lost and misguided.

Yeah this is where some within our community who get lost into the politics of punjab and jathabandi rather than actually using their own brain and deciding for themselves what makes sense. I have no jatha, I belong to no sect, I only owe my spiritual and earthly allegiance to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So if someone has some interesting research or something to say about Sikhi and Sikh history bringing forth their evidence I will have a look at it without ignoring it from the outset like what a muslim usually would do, a sign of true ignorance. A Sikh is supposed to be constantly striving to learn to be a student of the Guru, of the world and to keep searching for answers. Small mindedness and slandering is what weak people do who have a probably low level of intelligence or education.

[VanHelsingh]

Yeah this is where some within our community who get lost into the politics of punjab and jathabandi rather than actually using their own brain and deciding for themselves what makes sense. I have no jatha, I belong to no sect, I only owe my spiritual and earthly allegiance to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So if someone has some interesting research or something to say about Sikhi and Sikh history bringing forth their evidence I will have a look at it without ignoring it from the outset like what a muslim would do, that is true ignorance. A Sikh is supposed to be constantly striving to learn to be a student of the Guru, of the world and to keep searching for answers. Small mindedness and slandering is what weak people do who have a probably low level of intelligence or education.

Absolutely spot-on.

But there's another part of me that isn't tolerant or patient. The part of me that believes that people shouldn't be given second chances after insulting our faith and our Guru. If we allow people to get away with their nonsense, they'll only try something more ostentatiously blasphemous and bolder next time. I don't know. Its a struggle to be genuinely forward-thinking and understanding in one's approach to Sikhi, but without letting people ride rough-shod over its sacred tenets if you give the impression that everything is "chilled out".

I don't even know whether its possible to reconcile these two extremes to form a comfortable middle ground. Would traversing such a middle ground mean I'm neither one or the other, thus flitting between one confused state and the other?

[singh_bling]

Tarn Taran, March 30

At least six frescos of Hindu gods, including Lord Rama and Lord Krishna, which were unique specimens of the Sikh school of art of the Maharaja Ranjit Singh era have been replaced with Sikh paintings during kar seva at Darbar Sahib here.

The upper storey would be opened to the Sikh sangat on the 400th death anniversary of Guru Arjan Dev in June this year.

The frescos were visible on the upper storey of the sanctum sanctorum of the Sikh shrine before launching the kar seva. However, Baba Amrik Singh of Dera Baba Jagtar Singh Kar Seva Wale, while talking to The Tribune, claimed that he was not aware of any painting belonging to Hindu gods on the upper storey of Darbar Sahib. He said most of the paintings were beyond recognition since these were destroyed due to seepage from the dome.

The frescos were unique specimens of the Sikh school of art, completed in 1824 during the regime of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. According to Sikh history, Maharaja Ranjit Singh got the gold-plating and interior decoration of the Darbar Sahib completed by taking personal interest.

The other paintings visible at the time of the kar seva were, however, preserved after a lot of painstaking efforts. Now, all 16 paintings which were revived by using a similar style and colours as that of the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, belong to Sikh Gurus, Sikh warriors and religious leaders, including Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Ghanaiya, Baba Budhaji, the first head granthi of Harmandar Sahib, four Sahibzadas (sons of Guru Gobind Singh) and Bhai Gurdass. Some of the paintings depict Guru Nanak Dev flanked by Bhai Bala and Bhai Mardana. Jaswant Singh, an artist of Dera Baba Jagtar Singh Kar Seva Wale said specified colours were used to complete the art work and the paintings would last long as efforts had been made to stop seepage in the upper storey.

When Dr Kanwarjit Singh Kang, a renowned fresco expert, visited Darbar Sahib, Tarn Taran, in June 1971 in connection with his Ph.D thesis "Mural paintings in the 19th century Punjab", several frescos were intact in the upper storey of the shrine. According to Dr Kang, though originally the paintings were executed sometime in the middle of the 19th century, the dome of the shrine developed cracks during an earthquake in 1905 and was rebuilt again and embellished afresh with murals.

In June 1971, the surviving frescos depicted mixed themes, including portraits of Sikh Gurus and scenes from the Hindu mythology

oh no guys their were pics of hindu gods in our temples!

[dalsingh101]

What were the things? Despite many of the sanatan anti-sikh elements it would be of some value to see if there was anything of value/worth looking at in the book. The book is quite expensive so I'd like to know first...

I think one main gripe was the claim that the jathedar was allowing the destruction of old, historical buildings around the takhat in modernisation (it had a lot of work done to it in the run up to 300 years physical passing anniversary of dasmesh pita in 2008) and a lot of the Hazuri Sikhs living around the complex have been 'turfed out' in all this.

Some of the old images have the Hazur complex with a Durga in the centre.

I just think it generally follows that idea of the Singh Sabha lehar stopping lots of things Sikhs previously did (that they considered unSikh or Hindu).

Just get the book from the library first if you need to check it out. Or ask someone who has it to give you a peek?

[dalsingh101]

Absolutely spot-on.

But there's another part of me that isn't tolerant or patient. The part of me that believes that people shouldn't be given second chances after insulting our faith and our Guru. If we allow people to get away with their nonsense, they'll only try something more ostentatiously blasphemous and bolder next time. I don't know. Its a struggle to be genuinely forward-thinking and understanding in one's approach to Sikhi, but without letting people ride rough-shod over its sacred tenets if you give the impression that everything is "chilled out".

I don't even know whether its possible to reconcile these two extremes to form a comfortable middle ground. Would traversing such a middle ground mean I'm neither one or the other, thus flitting between one confused state and the other?

I know what you are saying.

Maybe instances need to be taken on an individual basis and assessed in an intelligent manner, rather than emotional responses that don't counter arguments placed forward?

One thing I think we are going to be forced to contend with in a small, shrinking world in terms of the exchange of ideas/communication due to technology, is scrutiny and the opportunity for any Tom, Mick or Abdul to make disparaging comments openly and anonymously. I mean look at that EDL Guramit bloke and his comments on Islam as an example of a j@ckass from our side doing it. Maybe we need to ignore some of the more petty sniping and focus our energies more productively?

Ultimately, the best strategy we have against this is the continual progress and upliftment of our people globally so other people can look on whilst stewing and we keep preoccupied with progressing and improving our society whilst they continue with petty sleights when their own people sink ever deeper in the quagmire they create? Easier said than done - but I can dream can't I? Today it seems to be us sinking into a quagmire.

Truth is we are more likely to keep on being hostile to each other and get involved in petty oneupmanship between ourselves then to coordinate like this.

These are just expressions of ideas btw, incase someone starts to let fly with x, y and z personal accusations.

Some of our itihaasik material preannexation does indeed have Hindu imagery/references in them. The question boils down to why we think this is. Pretending it doesn't exist or shouting down the place when it is being discussed is just a mentally weak position to take in my eyes - and that's not my style.

[HSD1]

Some of our itihaasik material preannexation does indeed have Hindu imagery/references in them. The question boils down to why we think this is. Pretending it doesn't exist or shouting down the place when it is being discussed is just a mentally weak position to take in my eyes - and that's not my style.

Because most of the converts to sikhi came from a hindu background back then?

All this hating on our heritage is playing into the hands of the very people who want to destroy us as a people. Many christian countries use pagan imagery and names throughout their history even when they had become christian. Did it mean that they were secretly roman/greek pagans? No of course not. The more and more we cut bits of our heritage, the more and more ground the RSS and others gain.

Why are sikhs always on the defensive? It's time to explain why these 'hindu' references are there and to explain how they have nothing to do with modern political hinduism or hindustan. It is time to go on the offensive and take back our heritage and not let the hindustanis cr*p all over it with their lies and ignorance.

[VanHelsingh]

The problem is that the people at the top of our faith will always originate from a certain background, and therefore a certain mindset. Whilst you coud argue that the only background and mindset that is needed is the Sikhi way of doing things, in the real world its not as black and white as that. As a faith we're stagnating and in some cases going backwards. We're riddled with corruption, superstition, in-fighting, mistrust - its depressing just listing the issues and there's even more.

One thing I think we are going to be forced to contend with in a small, shrinking world in terms of the exchange of ideas/communication due to technology, is scrutiny and the opportunity for any Tom, Mick or Abdul to make disparaging comments openly and anonymously.

Sadly true. Go onto a YouTube video and just have a look at some of the comments regarding Muslims, Islam and their faith in general. Look I know a lot of us don't like Islam and what it preaches but there's lots of decent people who do follow that faith. Substitue the words 'Muslim' for 'Sikh' and 'Islam' for 'Sikhi' and how gut-wrenching would it be for people to talk about our Gurus and our religion in such an ignorant and despicable way? What will we say to these people? "I'm not gonna cut your ****** head off!" or "We will rule the world and you shall die". Such shenanigans simply won't work.

But as long as the powerbase in Sikhi keeps circulating amongst the same group of people, nothing will ever change.

I pray for a day when a delegation of young Gursikhs (how Dasme Patshah Guru Gobind Singh Ji envisaged Sikhs to be) from the UK, the US, Canada, etc., come together and say "Ok, enough is enough. Our leaders have had their chance and they've done nothing. We want the chance to lead our quom. Enough with the Panjab politics and petty vote counting. Enough with the small-mindedness and the squabbles. Move aside and let us take our quom forward. You've failed and you've failed miserably".

I'm not saying introduce western principles of organising things or pander to the goreh in our respective countries or anything like that. But clear, level-headed leadership and intelligent handling of the issues shouldn't be restricted to western institutions (not that they're any better nowadays). Do everything in the rass of Gurmat but do it without the political hindrances that have bogged down our current leaders. God, that would be a dream come true. It really would.

[jassa]

Book is a very good full of information and facts.

[SunSingh]

I think one main gripe was the claim that the jathedar was allowing the destruction of old, historical buildings around the takhat in modernisation (it had a lot of work done to it in the run up to 300 years physical passing anniversary of dasmesh pita in 2008) and a lot of the Hazuri Sikhs living around the complex have been 'turfed out' in all this.

Some of the old images have the Hazur complex with a Durga in the centre.

I just think it generally follows that idea of the Singh Sabha lehar stopping lots of things Sikhs previously did (that they considered unSikh or Hindu).

Just get the book from the library first if you need to check it out. Or ask someone who has it to give you a peek?

another was that he didn't eat meat, which niddar saw as a weakness

[jassa]

^^^^ You are wrong here ... check my old posts i had a close view on what happened ... and i m hearing this first time and that to on sikhsangat ....

it was regarding destruction of buildings by govt

force of sgpc not to do sri dasam granth sahibs parkash (jathdar nanadgarh didnt entered the darbar sahib beacause of this parkash on 300 <banned word filter activated>) ...

push from akj and taksal not to do jhatka ...

Niddar made a point with every thing against jathedar he may not stand this pressure and may change the puratan mareyada of sachkhand thats all nothing more nothing less