Sikh Channel & Dudley Protest

[Into the Light]

when looking at who to blame for this entire fiasco it must be the Gurdwara/Centre comittee

100% agree with you darknight...the Gurdwara committee are to be solely blamed for this all - its really shocking to know what lengths these masands are prepared to go! But Guru jee see's all!!!

[_singhni_]

This is possibly a daft unnecessary reply but can't the committe be changed?

[Only five]

** Mod Note: Stop the personal attacks or a warning will be issued. It does not matter who started this childish behaviour **

When abusive language get reported, then the mods don't do anything. Singh you were here on the forum when the abusive language was being used. And now when everything is said and done. The mod wants to leave warnings. Why not stop the abusive language when it starts? Chal it's been like this for a while now on this forum. Thing will continue as they are.

[Balait_da_Sher]

This is possibly a daft unnecessary reply but can't the committe be changed?

There is an expression in punjabi, "jado vaar hi khet nu khaan lag jai ta khet da bachna muskhil ho janda", this means that when the (vaar=boundry i think) boundry starts harming the farm instead of the protecting it then farm cannot survive.

I feel that we need to take lessons from this and create a nationwide standard for gurdwaras, committees etc. If such standard is not met then such gurdwara must be closed. It is best to not have these pretend gurdwaras which insult what Sikhi stands for.

[VanHelsingh]

I feel an opportunity has been lost here, if instead of provoking sikhs who came to protest, local sangat and gurdwara commitee had prepared langar and sat down with their brothers and sisters, any problem could have been solved.

They don't want to sit down with their brothers and sisters because they don't see them as brothers and sisters. For these people, the sangat who came to protest were on par with Islamic extremists, because that's all I heard during the BBC phone-in today.

If these people are so ashamed and hate-filled towards people of their own religion, why bother with the religion at all? Renounce it and become Christian or another faith of their choice.

The cold, hard truth? They don't want people interfering with their "modern" lifestyles. They consider themselves Panjabi / Asian first, Sikh second. God forbid anyone should dare to tell them that drinking alcohol and consuming meat on Gurudwara property is incorrect.

Sadly, what they wanted the most was handed to them on a plate, i.e. retaliation from the Singhs. We heard the Dudley centre supporters on the BBC phone-in show today. The institution of Akal Takhat Sahib is a joke to them - some of them even began disrespecting Guru Gobind Singh Ji. What have we got in common with these people if even our Gurus are not sacred to them?

Yet after all this, I wish we hadn't taken the route of violence. It's the one regret I have from all of this. Maybe I'm a compassionate fool. But let me say that advocating the peaceful approach does not make me an apologist for these people. Nor does it mean I have any less respect and love for my faith than anyone else. A trap was laid and some sections of the sangat fell right into it. But like I said, I don't judge those who were provoked. Most likely they are better Sikhs than I am as they didn't care for the consequences - they cared only to halt the disrespect of their faith.

I still hold out hope there can be reconcilliations if both sides wish to meet. The line that has been drawn in the sand can still be erased.

[dalsingh101]

On a deeper level. Underlying all this is yet more failure to separate Panjabi culture and Sikh faith. For a long while people sailed in both boats, even when they went in opposite directions. They did this mindlessly, as in without giving it a second thought. Because they thought it was normal. That is why bhangra events used to be common many years ago in most Sikh celebrations.

What we seem to be seeing in the west is a growing consciousness of Sikh thought separated from the Panjabi. Those people who have been happily drifting in a way of life they have learned through osmosis and simply going with the flow, are essentially being woken up. What it highlights (starkly) to me is that the everyday Joe Sikh is in a comfortable world where he/she doesn't question what goes on around them. Also that vested interests wont easily give up profitable enterprises, even if one conclusively points out what is happening is clearly wrong.

We still need to have wide ranging and penetrating debate about Sikhi buttressing all this, so everyday Joes can understand what all of the conflict is about. Maybe a lot of them will then support?

[darknight]

Dudley will be defiant they have another 2 days to send the letter to satkaar and the akal thakt..........i personally don't think they will sign it then we are all back to square 1........like the idea of maybe closing both buildings the gurdwara and centre giving all the money to sikh charaties and call it a day...plenty of gurdwara and comunity centres in the surrounding areas and all the booday have free bus passes....don't think it would be a great loss to anyone......in another 10 years no one will be going to the gurdwara or the day centre anyway....

[HarsakhshiKaur]

They don't want to sit down with their brothers and sisters because they don't see them as brothers and sisters. For these people, the sangat who came to protest were on par with Islamic extremists, because that's all I heard during the BBC phone-in today.

If these people are so ashamed and hate-filled towards people of their own religion, why bother with the religion at all? Renounce it and become Christian or another faith of their choice.

The cold, hard truth? They don't want people interfering with their "modern" lifestyles. They consider themselves Panjabi / Asian first, Sikh second. God forbid anyone should dare to tell them that drinking alcohol and consuming meat on Gurudwara property is incorrect.

Sadly, what they wanted the most was handed to them on a plate, i.e. retaliation from the Singhs. We heard the Dudley centre supporters on the BBC phone-in show today. The institution of Akal Takhat Sahib is a joke to them - some of them even began disrespecting Guru Gobind Singh Ji. What have we got in common with these people if even our Gurus are not sacred to them?

Yet after all this, I wish we hadn't taken the route of violence. It's the one regret I have from all of this. Maybe I'm a compassionate fool. But let me say that advocating the peaceful approach does not make me an apologist for these people. Nor does it mean I have any less respect and love for my faith than anyone else. A trap was laid and some sections of the sangat fell right into it. But like I said, I don't judge those who were provoked. Most likely they are better Sikhs than I am as they didn't care for the consequences - they cared only to halt the disrespect of their faith.

I still hold out hope there can be reconcilliations if both sides wish to meet. The line that has been drawn in the sand can still be erased.

WJKK WJKF

I have to agree with you brother, this sangat does not have a wish for anyone to interfere with their version of sangat - the people at the local pub.

We have tried to be peaceful with these people, and it hurts most of the Sikh sangat to know that they continued to provoke the people. Then feed the media horribly one-sided stories. The Singhs who were provoked were brave, and their intention was to stop this breach of our Maryada. I don't think they were wrong in what they believed in, nor were their actions... it's just the 'modern' people that will twist these acts to their advantage... it has already been twisted greatly by the Telegraph, calling the whole protest a militant protest. There were children there - I suppose 4 year olds count as militants then, eh? :stupidme: These people do not have a wish to be peaceful, no matter how hard we try... 1978 is an example of our peaceful protesting being turned into a massacre. I think everyone wishes for a peaceful means of solving this. It hurts to see brothers and sisters fighting amongst themselves, especially when there are things occurring in the world that are trying to destroy us. If we have a wish to fight against those who have committed horrible acts towards/against our nation, we must first unite ourselves in an unstoppable force that once existed as The Khalsa. By going against what Guru Ji has told us, we are destroying ourselves, and weakening the true image of our nation. I have seen pub signs in Birmingham showing pictures of Singhs drinking beers... I fear our image is becoming tainted... and now the journalists are mocking us.

I agree with the comment from Balait_da_Sher, "

There is an expression in punjabi, "jado vaar hi khet nu khaan lag jai ta khet da bachna muskhil ho janda", this means that when the (vaar=boundry i think) boundry starts harming the farm instead of the protecting it then farm cannot survive.

I feel that we need to take lessons from this and create a nationwide standard for gurdwaras, committees etc. If such standard is not met then such gurdwara must be closed. It is best to not have these pretend gurdwaras which insult what Sikhi stands for."

The UK Gudwarai must consider this matter, as too often am I beginning to see Gudwarai acting against Sikhi. This is because [i do not mean to judge again ] the committees that run them tend to be filled with members of the older generation. I mean no disrespect to the respectful lions of the older generation, but some are not lions - instead they are hyenas and sheep. The Gudwarai run by true lions tend to be very lovely places, filled with Singhs and Singhnian that inspire the younger generations to become true Sikhs. The ones run by the hyenas and sheep tend to have party halls - it is NOT the Gudwara that needs to be shut down, it is the committee that needs to be rethought. At my local Gudwara, I fear the same things that happened at Dudley will happen here - the committee wish to make 'a community centre', when the vast majority of the Sangat previously voted for a sports pitch - the last time they made a 'communtiy centre', there were barrels of beer found outside, and Singhs had to come and destroy the beer, and interrupt a party. Now the Sangat are ignored by our committee, and the committee has a minority of people voting AGAINST this idea! This is what I mean - it is the hyenas of the committee, that should be put to shame. In some cases, the Sangat is to blame, but in most cases that I have seen, I don't see the Sangat being blamed.

There should be A WORLDWIDE POLICY FOR COMMITTEES AND GUDWARAI.

If there is one, please may somebody place a link to a copy of it, so that I can put this forward to my local Gudwara? :confused:

[You can find the news on my Gudwara as one of the popular pages on Panthic.org]

~ Harsakhshi Kaur

[HarsakhshiKaur]

On a deeper level. Underlying all this is yet more failure to separate Panjabi culture and Sikh faith. For a long while people sailed in both boats, even when they went in opposite directions. They did this mindlessly, as in without giving it a second thought. Because they thought it was normal. That is why bhangra events used to be common many years ago in most Sikh celebrations.

What we seem to be seeing in the west is a growing consciousness of Sikh thought separated from the Panjabi. Those people who have been happily drifting in a way of life they have learned through osmosis and simply going with the flow, are essentially being woken up. What it highlights (starkly) to me is that the everyday Joe Sikh is in a comfortable world where he/she doesn't question what goes on around them. Also that vested interests wont easily give up profitable enterprises, even if one conclusively points out what is happening is clearly wrong.

We still need to have wide ranging and penetrating debate about Sikhi buttressing all this, so everyday Joes can understand what all of the conflict is about. Maybe a lot of them will then support?

Yet again, another comment I definitely agree with... if the people of the were educated more in many aspects, so many global horrors could have been prevented, as well as horrors against our religion.

[HarsakhshiKaur]

So you are happy for violance to take place on the streats of the UK by Sikh's who preach Sikhi on site like this... bit like you.

I'm not preaching Sikhi, or sat that i know the ins and outs of sikhi,

BUT i do know whats right and wrong , An act of violance is WRONG, Sikh history cant justify this in the 21st century. stop living in the past .

The uk has laws aginst such acts,

So what are these boys going to use in their defence... ' we did this cos were sikh' and blame sikhi.

they are nothing more than common thugs

WJKK WJKF

dudleysingh, I do not mean to cause you disrespect, however, you too need to stop living in the past. You have said, as a weak argument to one of my comments on the racism of the police, that 'worse things have happened in the past'. If we are to stop living in the past, then we can also take the racist police officers to court on account of racism and harassment. The same can be done to the partygoers, under the terms of harassment.

A criminal can come under many forms - lawfully, morally, ethically, physically etc. The Dudley committee are, by Sikh ethics and morals, moral and ethical criminals. They are two types of criminals. The criminals by law are: the police officers, the partygoers and the Singhs who broke in. However, the Singhs who broke in are only ONE form of criminal - lawful. The police officers are three different types - lawfully, morally and ethically.

The laws of this country can twist the opposing side's argument also, please do not use the law as an argument as it is a very weak argument in some cases.. Only when legal documents come into the matter can it truly become a strong argument. If the legal documents are in any way incorrect or controversial, then the law can be applied here and there can be arrests based on the fact that the legal document is false. If the Dudley committee do not have some legal documents in place, then the Sangat could take them to court and be '21st century citizens'.

I do understand your perspective, however, you are not defending it well enough for me to agree with your points.

~ Harsakhshi Kaur