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Christians In Punjab


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Look at this bakwaas, one more gone. Why do most of our people not know that we don't worship '10 Gurus' but Ik Oankaar? I heard the same excuse from a girl who became Muslim and here too.

We do worship our human Gurus as Akal purakh himself ... no one can deny that ! Don't we say "Dhan Guru Nanak tuhi nirankar " or "Kala dhar jag main parveryo" ..

I think Guru granth sahib says something similar about guru ramdas

Guru Gobind sahib said "those who worship me as god will fall in deepest hell " , but we call Guru Gobind singh ji as "raajan raaj " and "devan dev" .

see this video ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0iCCUq7ET8

I guess its not people fault when they say we worship not just 1 god but our 10 gurus

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A wide variety of valid points made by HSD1 that should be read and re-read & not misinterpreted.

I'm sure we've all heard the saying "Youth is wasted on the young". I was wondering whether something like "Sikhi is wasted on the Sikhs" would be an accurate description of the problems we're facing?

I mean, maybe the concept of Sikhi is something that the majority of our people just simply cannot fathom to its truest extent. We are constantly told Sikhi is a progressive, highly-spiritual faith which promotes equality, justice and love. But how many Sikhs do we know that genuinely live by these standards for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

It seems most of us pick the immediately recognisable parts of Sikhi which dazzles the world and tells them we are Sikhs (i.e. the visual vestments of the faith) but how many of these people's souls match their impressive exteriors? A brief perusal of the Gupt section on SS (as one small example) and we've got Amritdhari people talking nonsense about God knows what. When did they think it was acceptable to fool the world by dressing up as a Sikh but neglecting to provide their souls with the same care and attention? These people should be the beacons of the faith, the light that guides the rest of the people out of the darkness. Yet our problems are not solely limited to young Amritdharis who are - to be fair to them - experiencing life and its assorted issues and probably coming up a bit short because of the inexperience of youth and the temptations of the age we live in, etc.

Then there's the people such as the males (elders, fathers, etc) in our community (not necessarily Amritdharis), whose ideals and ways of thinking wouldn't be alien to certain intolerant, ignorant Pakistani / Muslim patriarchs we've all heard about. Who approved them to behave in such un-Sikh ways?

Also, considering Sikhi is all about equality it wouldn't be fair if I let our bibiya off the hook (again, non-Amritdharis included). Some of the shenanigans the females are involved in are just so totally and utterly reprehensible that you have to wonder who has told them such practices are acceptable. Intolerance, envy, and downright malice are traits present in every group of people around the world. But the way in which it manifests itself amongst our bibiya & the lengths they go to in order to fulfil their degenerate ambitions, well it just boggles the mind.

I don't like delving too deep into these kind of issues as I could be reading them completely incorrectly, but I can only comment on issues I've seen in my own life and issues I read about on this website.

The faith we follow seems to be in direct conflict with the quality of people who profess to follow it. The degenerate depths to which we have fallen have gradually began to affect every aspect of Sikh life. Not everyone is mentally resolute as others during difficult times. Not everyone has the spiritual fortitude to see beyond the superficial. That doesn't make them bad people. It just means they're human like the rest of the world and they need a helping hand during tough times.

Anyway, I hope no-one has been offended by my words. I know there are some very classy Sikhs who practice what they preach, and whose souls DO match their impressive exterior saroop. They do not deal in hollow words because they practice what they preach, and you can't ask for more than that. Its those who mock the true ideals of Sikhi whilst professing to be a part of it, or those that don't care for the faith itself and just want to see it burn that we need to worry about. Or what is probably the most commonly ocurring group of people in Sikhi - the people who simply don't know any better. How can we help these folk and in the process change the mindset of a people, hundreds upon hundreds of years in the making?

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A wide variety of valid points made by HSD1 that should be read and re-read & not misinterpreted.

I'm sure we've all heard the saying "Youth is wasted on the young". I was wondering whether something like "Sikhi is wasted on the Sikhs" would be an accurate description of the problems we're facing?

I mean, maybe the concept of Sikhi is something that the majority of our people just simply cannot fathom to its truest extent. We are constantly told Sikhi is a progressive, highly-spiritual faith which promotes equality, justice and love. But how many Sikhs do we know that genuinely live by these standards for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

It seems most of us pick the immediately recognisable parts of Sikhi which dazzles the world and tells them we are Sikhs (i.e. the visual vestments of the faith) but how many of these people's souls match their impressive exteriors? A brief perusal of the Gupt section on SS (as one small example) and we've got Amritdhari people talking nonsense about God knows what. When did they think it was acceptable to fool the world by dressing up as a Sikh but neglecting to provide their souls with the same care and attention? These people should be the beacons of the faith, the light that guides the rest of the people out of the darkness. Yet our problems are not solely limited to young Amritdharis who are - to be fair to them - experiencing life and its assorted issues and probably coming up a bit short because of the inexperience of youth and the temptations of the age we live in, etc.

Then there's the people such as the males (elders, fathers, etc) in our community (not necessarily Amritdharis), whose ideals and ways of thinking wouldn't be alien to certain intolerant, ignorant Pakistani / Muslim patriarchs we've all heard about. Who approved them to behave in such un-Sikh ways?

Also, considering Sikhi is all about equality it wouldn't be fair if I let our bibiya off the hook (again, non-Amritdharis included). Some of the shenanigans the females are involved in are just so totally and utterly reprehensible that you have to wonder who has told them such practices are acceptable. Intolerance, envy, and downright malice are traits present in every group of people around the world. But the way in which it manifests itself amongst our bibiya & the lengths they go to in order to fulfil their degenerate ambitions, well it just boggles the mind.

I don't like delving too deep into these kind of issues as I could be reading them completely incorrectly, but I can only comment on issues I've seen in my own life and issues I read about on this website.

The faith we follow seems to be in direct conflict with the quality of people who profess to follow it. The degenerate depths to which we have fallen have gradually began to affect every aspect of Sikh life. Not everyone is mentally resolute as others during difficult times. Not everyone has the spiritual fortitude to see beyond the superficial. That doesn't make them bad people. It just means they're human like the rest of the world and they need a helping hand during tough times.

Anyway, I hope no-one has been offended by my words. I know there are some very classy Sikhs who practice what they preach, and whose souls DO match their impressive exterior saroop. They do not deal in hollow words because they practice what they preach, and you can't ask for more than that. Its those who mock the true ideals of Sikhi whilst professing to be a part of it, or those that don't care for the faith itself and just want to see it burn that we need to worry about. Or what is probably the most commonly ocurring group of people in Sikhi - the people who simply don't know any better. How can we help these folk and in the process change the mindset of a people, hundreds upon hundreds of years in the making?

I have been saying again and again ... Let us make sikhism a missionary religion .... there should be prachar of sikhi in every country and we should strive that it happens in every city of world ! Jehova witnesses go knocking door of strangers - look at their love towards their religion . I am not saying sikhs should knock people's doors to convert them , but we should learn a lesson from the folks we call missionaries !

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This is what the Abrahamic faiths have to offer them ...

Bigotry alive for Christian Dalits

By Sunil Raman

BBC News, Eraiyur

999999.gif

_45887672_main_parish_church.jpg

The village came up around the parish church, Lady of the Rosary Parish

Centuries ago, as their forefathers faced social and economic deprivation, many low-caste Hindus embraced Christianity.

But in one corner of southern India, their hopes for equality remain unfulfilled hundreds of years on. Called "pariahs", hundreds of Dalit Christians continue to face discrimination - not from Hindus but fellow Christians.

More than 200km (124 miles) from Chennai, the capital of the southern state of Tamil Nadu, is the village of Eraiyur.

Home to about 3,000 Dalit Christians, mostly farm labourers and migrant workers, the area witnessed violence last year when Dalits demanded equal treatment.

The village is dominated by Vanniyar Christians numbering 15,000, who own most of the land and businesses.

They imposed restrictions on Dalits even though they had also converted to Christianity.

Restricted life

A 17th Century church building, Lady of the Rosary Parish, stands tall above the Eraiyur settlement. The village came up around the parish church, with Vanniyar houses closest to it. The Dalits were forced to build their small huts on the fringe of the village.

It did not take long for the divisions within the Hindu social system to be reflected among the new Christians.

The dominant Vanniyars created rules which restricted the movement of the Dalits.

o.gif

_45887706_pereiyamaka.jpg

start_quote_rb.gifWe were told not to touch any upper caste person, not to get too close to them, not to talk to themend_quote_rb.gif

Mrs Peraiyamakar

When they visited the parish church they were not allowed to walk on the main street leading to the building. Instead they had to use a side street that led to the church gate.

When Dalits died they were not allowed to be buried in the cemetery. Their burial ground is beyond the village and can only be accessed through a broken path.

In addition, the funeral cart parked inside the church building can be used only by Vanniyars.

"We were told not to touch any upper caste person, not to get too close to them, not to talk to them," says Mrs Peraiyamaka, 60, a farm labourer who has been visiting the parish church since childhood.

"It is no different now."

Mr Thomas, a 60-year-old labourer says there is also a fear of violence as young Dalits refuse to be submitted to such humiliation.

He says this fear prompted the Dalits to build an alternative church.

A single-room, white-washed brick structure with an iron grill for the entrance is set in a small open ground.

Called Our Lady of Perpetual Help, the Dalit church has a coloured icon of Virgin Mary with Baby Jesus in her arms. She is flanked by plastic flowers and incense sticks burn on the sides.

The Dalits' demands of recognition for their church were rejected by local Catholic priests on the ground that a village can have only one parish church.

o.gif

start_quote_rb.gifThere is no big change after we came to Christianity. We have very good Christian names, we read Bible and got to Church instead of temples.end_quote_rb.gif

Mr Mathew, Dalit activist

Mr Mathew is a Dalit activist who graduated from Madras University.

Having faced prejudice as a schoolboy, he has now decided to fight for the rights of Dalits.

His efforts to seek justice have created tension in his village, forcing him to move to elsewhere.

He is angry that although the constitution has banned "untouchability" it continues to be practised in different ways.

"My family may get some minimum help or guidance from Christianity. That's all. There is no big change after we came to Christianity," says Mr Mathew.

Vanniyars disgruntled

_45887670_dalit_church.jpg

Dalits are demanding that their church be recognised

As we walked out of the Dalit quarters towards the well laid-out area where Vanniyar Christians live under the shadow of the whitewashed parish church, we were greeted by a few angry women.

They did not want us to take pictures and asked us to leave.

A few angry residents of Vanniyar quarters gathered around us. They agreed to answer our questions. Emily, 25, was eager to give their version of the story.

"We have allowed them to use the road. They are creating trouble," she says.

We asked her how in a free country one group could dictate to others on the use of a public road.

"I don't know. It's been like this… but we have now allowed them," Emily replied.

Similar responses came from other Vanniyars we spoke to.

Mr Arukadas, a retired government teacher lives next to the parish church and he shared his unhappiness with the Dalit Christians.

Asked about using a common funeral van and a graveyard where all Christians irrespective of their past Hindu caste identity can be buried, he retorted: "It will take a long time for a common graveyard."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jpC82pTJr8

Indian Dalits find no refuge from caste in Christianity

By Swaminathan Natarajan BBC Tamil

_49024451_wall_466.jpg Till death do us part: Dalits are buried on the other side of the wall in this cemetery

Many in India have embraced Christianity to escape the age-old caste oppression of the Hindu social order, but Christianity itself in some places is finding it difficult to shrug off the worst of caste discrimination.

In the town of Trichy, situated in the heart of the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu, a wall built across the Catholic cemetery clearly illustrates how caste-based prejudice persists.

Those who converted to Christianity from the formerly "untouchable" Hindu caste groups known as Dalits are allocated space for burial on one side of the wall, while upper-caste converts are buried on the other side.

The separating wall was built over six decades ago.

Continue reading the main story

“Start Quote

_49031596_yesuman.jpg

Caste discrimination is rampant in the Catholic Church”

End Quote Father Yesumariyan Jesuit lawyer, Dalit campaigner

"This violates the Indian constitution. It is inhuman. It's humiliating," says Rajendiran, secretary general of Periyar Dravidar Kazhagam, a small socio-political group that has announced a protest demanding the removal of the wall.

The Catholic Church in India says it does not approve of caste discrimination. But it says it is helpless in resolving this issue.

"The burial ground is owned by private individuals, so we are not able to do anything about this. Even the local bishop is not going to the cemetery to perform rituals," says Father Vincent Chinnadurai, chairman of the Tamil Nadu state Commission for Minorities.

He says there is a new cemetery in the town, where bodies are buried without any discrimination.

Yet burials continue to take place in the controversial cemetery, presided over by Catholic priests.

For centuries Hindus from different castes have been cremated or buried in different places, according to their caste.

'Cementing caste'

This practice is fading in the big cities and towns, but in some places in rural Tamil Nadu, caste-based graveyards are still in operation.

_49024448_dalits_afp_304.jpg Discrimination against Dalits persists in all strata of Indian society

Dalit Christians are demanding more proactive steps from the Church to remove the wall.

Father Lourdunathan Yesumariyan, a Jesuit, practising lawyer and Dalit-Christian activist, says the Church has the legal power to remove the wall.

Even though the cemetery is on privately owned land, he says, a recent high court judgement ruled that the Church has full responsibility as it administers the graveyard.

"The failure to remove the wall only helps cement caste feelings," he adds.

Some years ago two Catholic priests demolished a small part of the wall.

But the influential land-owning upper-caste Christian group rebuilt it.

The Church is meanwhile accused by critics of refusing to give "just representation" for Dalits in its power structure, even while it campaigns for a separate quota for the Dalit Christians in government jobs.

Fr Yesumariyan says: "In Tamil Nadu, over 70% of Catholics are Dalit converts. But only four out of 18 bishops are from the Dalit-Christian community.

"In many places influential caste groups have lobbied and made sure that only the person belonging to their caste is being appointed as bishop in their diocese."

He says that in places where Dalit Christians are the majority, they often struggle to get the top job.

Even though the archbishop of Tamil Nadu region is a Dalit Christian, he has been unable to improve the situation much for other members of his community in the Church.

Untouchablity 'everywhere'

In recent years a fixed number of jobs and seats have been earmarked in Catholic-run schools and colleges for members of the Dalit-Christian community.

_49024447_communion_afp_304.jpg There are estimated to be more than 17 million Catholics in India

But this is being challenged in the court on the grounds that "there is no caste in Christianity".

Fr Yesumariyan continues: "The Indian constitution says it has abolished untouchablity. But it is everywhere. In the same way, the Catholic Church says there is no caste bias but caste discrimination is rampant in the Church.

"There are hardly any inter-caste marriages among converted Christians. Until recently, Church-run magazines carried matrimonial advertisements containing specific caste references. Only after our protest they stopped it."

A few churches in Tamil Nadu have even been closed after Dalit Christians demanded a share in the administration.

"We say there is no caste in Christianity," says Fr Chinnadurai. "But in India, Christianity was not able to get rid of caste.

"Those who converted to Christianity brought their caste prejudices with them. We are trying our best to get rid of them."

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Someone in the comments claim that Udasiya and Nirmale are the cause of castism in Sikhi.

Is this true?

Not entirely true. Blaming one or two group is knee j erk reaction..The problem is much deeper than that, as root the problem lies at punjabi tribalism. All samparda's and groups historically are affected by it- nihangs (seperate amrit for mabhzi sikhs), nirmale, udhasi, singh sabha (gurdwaras), bhindran taksal (seperate area for mabhzi sikhs), akj (all though they don't show it openly).

Once sikh (regardless whichever jatha or samparda he/she from) mindset rises from punjabi tribalism..one will start seeing beauty of sikhi. Punjabiyaat tribalism have hijacked Gurmat by super imposing its own tribal thought on Gurmat.

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Not entirely true. Blaming one or two group is knee j erk reaction..The problem is much deeper than that, as root the problem lies at punjabi tribalism. All samparda's and groups historically are affected by it- nihangs (seperate amrit for mabhzi sikhs), nirmale, udhasi, singh sabha (gurdwaras), bhindran taksal (seperate area for mabhzi sikhs), akj (all though they don't show it openly).

Once sikh (regardless whichever jatha or samparda he/she from) mindset rises from punjabi tribalism..one will start seeing beauty of sikhi. Punjabiyaat tribalism have hijacked Gurmat by super imposing its own tribal thought on Gurmat.

Very true, surprising and scary how deep this mindset has gone. It seems it's crawled back within the last 100 or so years?

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