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Whats Wrong With Muslims In Uk


Inqlabi
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I also wonder why muslims in UK/europe are the biggest problem. In Canada and USA they seem pretty docile. I, nor anyone I know, have never had any problems with any muslims acting up like they do in the UK.
That is exactly what I've been thinking too since I read about that blog message. In USA/Canada Sikhs and Muslims get along really well actually, for the most part. As far as I know, we do not have any such nonsense here, at least not at a magnitude as it is in the UK, where Muslims actually initiate a campaign to convert non-Muslim (particularly Sikh) girls to Islam.

How about we Sikhs (Singhs as well as Kaurs) put forward some points for the sake of discussion and try to analyse and differentiate as to why things are as bad in the UK and not really that worse (yet) in USA/Canada?

Here are my thoughts, please correct me if I am wrong and do post your ideas as well.

  • Muslims in USA/Canada dread the times they faced after 9/11 more than what Muslims in UK fear after 7/7. Therefore they keep a seemingly low profile in North America but probably not in UK?
  • Muslim population in UK is possibly higher than their numbers in North America?
  • Sikhs in USA/Canada have been trying hard to project their identity in a positive manner and portraying themselves successfully as not belonging to Islam. In UK most people (if not all) already know that Sikhs and Muslims are different.
  • Muslims in North America are a lot more cultured, moderate, and also better educated than the ones in UK?
  • Muslims in North America tend to engage in inter-religious dialogue to have a positive outcome, not sure about Muslims in UK.

Please do share your valuable input. I am just curious to find out how we can come up with a way things can be done differently in UK so that we can cut short this problem.

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Mehtab Singh ji, on the whole UK compaired to north america, majority of peole know the difference between the religions, more people here are intigrated more so than north america.

Some only nit pick and focus on the nut job muslims in the UK. In UK every major city in the midlands, Greater London and parts of north like yorkshire and north west like Manchester has large Asian populations. I mean like places equal to surrey and brampton in Canada. Only a small minority are not good muslimswheras the majority are good.

In all religions there are good and bad.

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You're most likely right Singh jee, I am just trying to see what is it so different here in USA/Canada that is not happening/existing in UK because of which we seem to be having this "Muslim problem". I mentioned that in North America Sikhs and Muslims get along really well, and that I am saying based on my own personal interaction with Muslims and that of other GurSikhs I know. But its a totally different story in UK, again based on what I've been reading for all these years and what I've been told by Singhs over there. Please understand that we're not intentionally trying to malign an entire community. Its a small section of them targeting our entire community, which would/should still demand some action to be taken. The least we can do at least start thinking how things can be done differently.

You or someone else from UK please do elaborate on how the law enforcement authorities are going to view this threat that was posted on the blog.

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My own experience is also the same. I think on the whole the majority do get on well. However there are bad influences, maybe moreso on one side rather than the other. (depending upon which side of the fence you stand on).

With regards to the blog either its some young kids, someone casing trouble or someone very very stupid. I mean who confesses to stabbing people on the internet? I personally would take it with a pinch of salt.

Im not naive to think there are no problems there are many but not as much as the scare mongers would have you believe. How to tackle the problem I have no idea but diffussing tensions with love and understanding has a more long term success rate than by figthing as the other side only trains harder with the sole objective of teaching you a lesson, it's a never ending circle. Or am I wrong?

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Again you're right, the only question is how much effect will love and understanding have. In your own words, it depends on what side of the fence we stand on :) . Your points are valid that it may or may not be true, but lets go with the worst case scenario and presume for a bit that it is true. Next questions are how prepared are we, what can/should we do, and the usual "what if" scenarios. I personally don't vouch for picking up the sword right away, because even Guru Sahib advocated that only as the last resort.

They say charity begins at home. Good deal, lets start educating Sikh parents and see what difference that makes? We've enough Khalsa schools in all western countries that are held in the Gurdwaras on Sundays to teach kids about Gurmat. Its time to teach those who are closer to the kids even more than the Khalsa school teachers, i.e. the parents. If parents can instill Sikh values in their kids at their young and unripe age, there are lesser chances that the kid would go astray. Problem is how many would be willing to come forward. Primary focus should be on young Sikh girls, and also not ignore the boys at the same time. Reason I prioritize girls is because (1.) Its the girls who are being targeted, (2.) A mother is a child's first teacher, so if the mother was taught Gurmat as a kid, she will only pass it on to her child.

Please do come up with other constructive ideas. We can worry about implementing them later, but lets initiate the brainstorming.

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Here are my thoughts, please correct me if I am wrong and do post your ideas as well.

  • Muslims in USA/Canada dread the times they faced after 9/11 more than what Muslims in UK fear after 7/7. Therefore they keep a seemingly low profile in North America but probably not in UK?
  • Muslim population in UK is possibly higher than their numbers in North America?
  • Sikhs in USA/Canada have been trying hard to project their identity in a positive manner and portraying themselves successfully as not belonging to Islam. In UK most people (if not all) already know that Sikhs and Muslims are different.
  • Muslims in North America are a lot more cultured, moderate, and also better educated than the ones in UK?
  • Muslims in North America tend to engage in inter-religious dialogue to have a positive outcome, not sure about Muslims in UK.

I'd say Mehtab Singh Ji, that your points bolded above go some way to identify the difference between European and North American Muslims. Whilst the situation is a lot more nuanced than we could ever hope to describe, I find the general feeling amongst people who emigrate to the United States is the desire to live the American Dream (despite what we may think of its validity, etc). It may be a myth but its an overwhelmingly strong one, and the American identity is one lifestyle and way of life people wish to assume, and thus improve their personal circumstances - even if that means relegating their own cultural identity into the background.

In England for many years even the indigenous white population were afraid to express their admiration for their roots and English identity, because for a long-time the English flag was associated with the far-right and other "extreme" white expressions of nationality. But since the rise of Islamic extremism, you've got people (some genuine, others prejudiced trouble-makers who were previously shackled by the constraints of political correctness) who are making a lot of noise and asking why they can't be proud of their Englishness. When government jumps onto these bandwagons in order to placate an increasingly restless indigenous population (funnily enough when there's an election around the corner, lol), you get a lot of headlines in the media - particularly the right-wing press - which attempt to rally the "downtrodden and forgotten" white voice.

As for Muslims being better cultured and educated in the U.S. than the UK, I've never met a North American Muslim so I really don't know if that's the case.

I think people in the media downplay how much Muslims (especially in Europe) place so much stock in the Quran. Everything in their lives is dictated by their holy book. Whilst that is admirable and you'd wish Sikhs would be as resolutely faithful to their own doctrines as the Muslims are, its the passages within the Quran which promote activities that don't lead to a cohesive, united society which IMO is the root of the problem. Extremist Muslims will never forsake their faith and their Quran for the benefit of the society they live in, so what will give? They won't change or challenge their faith but they will attempt to modify the world around them because their scriptures endorse such activities. How can you defeat or even tackle that kind of thinking amongst Muslims?

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You're most likely right Singh jee, I am just trying to see what is it so different here in USA/Canada that is not happening/existing in UK because of which we seem to be having this "Muslim problem". I mentioned that in North America Sikhs and Muslims get along really well, and that I am saying based on my own personal interaction with Muslims and that of other GurSikhs I know. But its a totally different story in UK

Firstly, my friend, don't believe the hype. Many of the brave strong sikh men here on this message board...are behaving like hysterical little girls when it comes to muslims. Fox News would gladly have them on as regular guests. They fit the profile well. The fact is I'm born and bred in the UK and I have recieved nothing but total kindness from every muslim I've ever met. Many, if not most, of the Pakistani muslims around this area of west London which houses the greatest numerical number of Sikhs in the UK are Pakistani Punjabis and they, just like their compatriots in Canada and America, get on with Sikhs like brothers and sisters. However.....many of the Sikhs on this message board live in areas to the north of London where the vast majority of Pakistanis, and muslims in general, are Mirpuris. In Paksitan itself the Mirpuris are looked upon as the very backward, lazy, criminal community. A Paksiatni Punjabi would much rather sit and talk to a sikh than a Mirpuri. In the UK as a whole, the Mirpuris make up the vast majority of Pakistanis.

Anyway, the above is the minor reason. The major reason is very simple and is tought in Sociology degree courses everywhere. Muslims.....and for that matter Sikhs and Hindus.....immigrate to America and Canada....for a better life....and become proud patriots of their new home...to which they are gratefull. That, my freind, is not the way things work here. For a start, here in Europe, where society has seen first hand the negative effects of nationalism and patriotism......proud patriotism is a dity word......and is seen as the natural abode of the extreme right wing. For example whenever you visit rural doaba you will always see many dozens of visiting families in each village from the UK, Canada and America respectively. The Canadian and American ones display their national flags with pride everywhere. On their clothing.....on their properties.....on their cars...everywhere. But you wil NEVER EVER EVER see a UK sikh proudly display the Union Jack flag. Never EVER !

So......what do University degree courses say is the reason for the difference in attitude between the musims in Europe and north America ? Well........a muslim youth (and our own youth for that matter) don't feel they owe any special favour to the UK, France etc. They....(and many of us for that matter) feel the UK owes us. Owes us for 300 years of slavery and theft. I'll give you an example...myself : as my family arrived in the 1940's we have, technicaly, been British continuously since 1848. Similarly, the French muslims, beimng Algerians and Morrocons etc, have been French citizens continously for hundreds of years. As such....immigrants in Europe don't tend to feel that they owe their host country any gratitude or thanks....or pride. In many ways..freedom of thought...is much stronger here in Europe than it is in America. Although America likes to tell itself it is the most free in the world, the fact is that it isn't really. It tells its people how to think and if anyone thinks any different he is instantly labelled as 'un-american' or unpatriotic. Here in Europe though, freedom of thought is real. You're allowed to make your own decision as to whether to like your country or hate your country. And the expansion of the open European border....the supremacy over parliament of eu law....and the non-relevance of national borders.....has further weakened any notion of seperate nationhood. On top of that you have the question of numbers. In america for example, the Spanish speakers are now big enough in numbers to be able to exhert their culture onto wider society in order to create a new national culture. South asians in north america are tiny in comparison and cannot create that kind of cultural phenomenon in wider society. In the UK....the phenonema is that south asians....but particularly Pakistanis....are strong and confident enough to say to society "No......why should we have to change for you ?.......why don't you change for us for a change ?" When you fight this sociological against your 'imperialists' it helps a great deal when you have a powerfull religious force behind you.....on which you can rally behind in numbers.

So..........in conclusion...your question needs a 3 year degree course to answer. And the subject will be sociology rather than theology. The difference between the muslims of the UK and the USA is the same as the difference between the Sikhs of the Uk and the USA. I'm sure you've noticed from this very forum how so many of the UK sikhs feel absolutely no afinity with the land of their birth ; the UK.

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This is what I was trying to figure out. So its the general local populations and thereby the governments that are unable to handle the issue. In a way it makes sense. USA and Canada are lands where besides Native Indians all the others pretty much are immigrants. That isn't the case in UK as the aborigines are whites themselves, and so if they try to propagate their identity they are seen as "racists" possibly, so they let non-white immigrants "do their thing"? Correct me if I am wrong. Here in North America on the other hand, every community can be proud of their ethnic identities and foster inter-cultural harmony.

Now coming to their scripture. Having grown up all my life in the Middle East, I can say that you are absolutely spot on when you say "Extremist Muslims will never forsake their faith and their Quran for the benefit of the society they live in, so what will give? They won't change or challenge their faith but they will attempt to modify the world around them because their scriptures endorse such activities". But this then opens another box of troubles: How and who will attempt to convince Muslims to teach their coming generations about following Islam devotedly and at the same time being tolerant/accepting towards other faiths? What if the extremists are misunderstanding their own scriptures and interpreting them to suit themselves? I do know that there are sections in the Quran that talk about Kafirs and interpreted in a way that could shock anyone, just curious to know what if those interpretations are far from truth?

So are we saying that the bottom line is the issue being in their religion, scripture, and possibly a mindset arising out of that mix? Or is it a mentality which involves intolerance followed by crushing those who are not like them? Lastly, what is the best way to deal with all of this? The American dream as you said is something that has made people dilute their affiliations with their culture if needed. I am alright with that if that culture preaches hatred. But then it makes me wonder, when they come to UK, don't they have a "British dream" ? Howcome the affinity towards that lifestyle never made them dilute their affiliations with their culture? In fact, they become more of hardliners when they come to UK than they are probably even in the Middle East!

Another thing to point out is that based on the arrests made in the past 2 years, and as portrayed by the news media, it is known that there is a small section of disgruntled Muslims even in North America who are not really up to any good. The only difference between them and their cousins in UK, is that in UK they dare to be loud and vocal before the common man on the street. In North America only the law enforcement agencies would find out about them after they've been under surveillance for a good amount of time.

That is what I am trying to hit at. They are silent over here but not in UK. Its time to decide which one is more deadly, an enemy you can hear, or an enemy you can't. Who is more dangerous, a killer who attacks you on your face, or one that backstabs you.

Or, as much in denial as we would want to be, does the problem lie in us to begin with? Are we the ones who've offered them opportunities because of our weaknesses/shortcomings with regards to how devoted we are to our faith?

At the risk of getting several negative points slapped on this post, I beg to ask this question which I have avoided asking- Are the Sikhs in US/Canada more aggressive than their brothers and sisters in UK? Is that why they don't dare to mess with us here but don't spare us in UK? Please don't take it personally or offensively, just trying to get to the root of the problem with each post.

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