Jkd, Wing Chun Or Eagle Claw?

[1000]

wjkk wjkf.

Bacially I have the option of learning one of the following martial arts: Jeet kune Do, Wing Chun or Eagle Claw Kung Fu...

I was trying to weigh up which is best out of these and would probably be the most effective in real life situation on the street?

If the sangat practices any of these or has any idea what I should go for, then please let me know. Thanks.

[Khaalis]

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh

Brother/sister, the most important element of learning a martial art is finding a good teacher. A good teacher should be open minded, always continuing to learning, be totally open with their knowledge (no hold back like in most McDojos and keep students coming back for 20 years under th pretense of a belting/grading system).

a good teacher should answer all your questions and hold monitor your progress as if you were his/her own child. Most martial arts classes are so big you end up getting taught by so called senior students, and get the occassional glance from the teacher.

Traditionally in most martial cultures - very few people were taught the 'arts of combat'. Most soldiers and police (as is teh case today) are taught basic martial arts, as they don't have the resources and time to invest in a complete training programme, alongside the important matter of they don't actually fight open handed or with blades (although the skills is still deemed necesary as a last resort).

For civiilians like you and me, open hand and blade training is very valuable - as this is the most common scenario on the street.

Back to your question - Hari Singh teaches Eagle Claw and Sardaara Singh teaches WC adn JKD, so I expect it is from these 2 teachers you are choosing to learn, correct? They are 3 different styles. Eagle Claw is the most traditional system, which I expect is taught in an old fashioned, patient and disciplined manner. It is a very powerful system, and having the ablity to have the grasp which arises from the training is invaluable. Eagle Claws strength lies in Chin-Na the art of mucsle seperation. it's very hard work (the conditioning etc) but well worth it. I am not sure how long Hari Singh takes to start teaching this, as I assume you will first of all learn a number of body correction, balance, footwork etc exercises via forms. EC also makes good use of neck manipulation, a great skill for Singhs in terms of response to Dara/Dastar attacks. At a high level its a devestating killing art... but how long it will take to get to that level via this school, I don't know.

Wing Chun is a great short range fighting system, promoting the centre line and direct attack principle. It has (in my opinion) very basic but strong footwork, soley because it's emphasis is close range. It is taught via forms too, and it's strength lies in very innovative speed, strength, sensitivity and postural drills - which create fighting habits. I'm not convinced against its ability verses western boxing (hooks etc) but if the teacher is good, he/she will have a solution for this. There are different types of Wing Chun, Ip Man, the more popular style (due to Bruce Lee being a student) is more a hard/direct system - largely based on the highly dangerous Snake and white Crane systems (which I love in their original form). Personally I prefer Shaolin Wing chun - which is also incorporates Tiger - and therefor uses grasps somewhat similar to Eagle claw (Northern EC uses thumb and index/iddle finger and Southern EC uses all fingers, like Tiger, from what I remember). also Shaolin WC is much softer and sneakier, less obvious. This is an invaluable skill in real life fighting. Ip Man WC can be learnt fairly quickly, in a matter of a few years if the teacher is good. Thereafter you keep practicing and improving.

JKD is more modern, and is a Bruce Lee's mix of Ip Man Wing Chun, Western boxing and Kali open hand (Eskrima). It's the easiet and quickest to learn and is more akin to a modern street figh situation. It relies on speed and strength (Western boxing influence), but uses WC drills to create timing/sensitivity/anticipation etc. It also uses more kicks than the others due to Chuck Norris's Japanese influence on Bruce I think . Interestingly WC does not really use kicks, just a few up to the knee (which is an excellent tactic on the street).

So, a lot to consider. If you can stick with it and have time, my recommendation would be Eagle Claw - as over time, I feel it will build you up with the most amount of skill i.e. grip, strength, speed, great kowldge of anatomy i.e. muscle seperation, pressure points (Marmas) etc - which in my opinion, also makes it the most lethal.

If the other 2, I would learn Wing Chun 1st, as it takes longer and again has many more tools in the box (over time). If you want quick fix which is fairly efective, then JKD. Most people who learn JKD, end up learnign WC in any case, there is a massive cross over. But less who learn WC learn JKD (although a few do). Basic reason being, Bruce Lee is said (by Hong Kong WC groups) not to have completed his WC training under Ip Mans school - and that WC learnt and practiced fully is a destructive and effective art with no weakness. I personally know a few WC teachers, and they are very dangerous - there seems to be culture of testing your skills in the street for some groups within the WC arena :-).

Now for the real question. Why do you want to learn? If for self defence, then you need to consider that today, on the street, people do not fight open handed (which these systems are designed for). You would be better offer learning a system which teaches weapons from day one and incorporates effective open hand fighting along the same principles. In which case I would suggest finding a good Eskrima teacher. Eagle claw and wing Chun do some weapons work, but this is now largely more form based and artistic in nature, which is why you se many people from chinese (and japanese) martial arts backgrounds learning from the Filipinos - Sword and Knife work. JKD which is mainly headed by Dan Inosanto (Bruce Less senior student) usually combines with Dans version of Kali (Eskrima), so JKD students get their weapons fix this way.

If you would like any further advice, feel free to PM me.

wjkk wjkf.

Bacially I have the option of learning one of the following martial arts: Jeet kune Do, Wing Chun or Eagle Claw Kung Fu...

I was trying to weigh up which is best out of these and would probably be the most effective in real life situation on the street?

If the sangat practices any of these or has any idea what I should go for, then please let me know. Thanks.

[Guru_Da_Chella]

wjkk wjkf.

Bacially I have the option of learning one of the following martial arts: Jeet kune Do, Wing Chun or Eagle Claw Kung Fu...

I was trying to weigh up which is best out of these and would probably be the most effective in real life situation on the street?

If the sangat practices any of these or has any idea what I should go for, then please let me know. Thanks.

hmm shastar vidiya is more effective in real life and battlefield?

[MS1NGH]

i practised wing chun kung fu in the past and would highly recommend it. It was developed by a woman, and so you dont need to be big and strong. Its very direct and applicable to street combat. JKD is supposed to be good however its difficult to know if you are being taught the genuine JKD martial art, the best instructors would be in the USA. from my experience, the martial art is irrelevent, the instructor is what is important. There are some excellent martial arts instructors out there and also some very crappy ones..

vjkk vjkf!

[Kaljug Singh]

Go visit each teacher, attend a few lessons, and pick the one you enjoy the most. At the end of the day, if you do not enjoy your art, you will give up training.

If you choose one of the TCMAs make sure that your teacher is teaching gongs like finger and grip strength in Eagle Claw, Iron Hand in WC through work on the wooden dummy, without which most TCMAs are useless.

Once you have a strong base in one art, cross train in weapons and a get a little groundwork.

Ensure that there is regular sparring or some sort of means to pressure test your art so that you are confident that it will work when you need it.

K.

[1000]

Khaalis. Who is Sardaara Singh? And where is he based?

I was thinking Hari Singh for Eagle Claw. And have heard he is a brilliant tutor, he is very dedicated. So that is an option.

The other 2 WC and JKD, I found a school in Birmingham City Centre for that.

However, I also did consider Eskrima. But im not sure how applicable this is to life.

What I am looking for was something that taught open hand combat with also the ability to defend from knife attacks. However, I dont want to train in weaponry. As I did Gatka training for a long time, and I want to learn something that I can defend myself without the use of weapons.

Is Eskrima/Kali not mainly training in weaponry? and less on hand to hand combat?

Thanks.

[Khaalis]

Vaheguru Ji.

Yes, if you are patient (which is a high level quality in the true art of fighting), then Hari Singh is a good option for open hand combat (and his system is great for general fitness/flexibility/discipline etc without the mad modern combat exercise regimes). The exercises/drills/conditioning are all totally directed towards the fighting muscles/tendons etc.

Re it's effective against knife attacks, any martial art can be effective against knives, but the practitioner would need to be well advanced and have a deep understanding of underlying fighitng principles i.e. baiting, intelligent footwork, body motion and mechanics, use of soft and hard, distancing, closing the gap, range, leaving vacuums etc etc etc.

At a common level, I don't think Eagle Claw is designed for taking on knife attacks - it is hands on system, same as Wing Chun and JKD, so the hands would present themselves to the blade.

"Good" styles of Eskrima however (which are very rare, most mainstream ones are competition orientated), are designed around the blade. They specialise in its use and therefore response to the same.

To say "What I am looking for was something that taught open hand combat with also the ability to defend from knife attacks. However, I dont want to train in weaponry." is a misnomer. To defend against a knife, one has to first master the knife. Knife is weaponry.

Gatka is great, is is good for fitness, getting kids interested in Sikhi, developing confidence, flowing movements etc, but it is not really a 'martial' art. Is more akin to a sport, the same as mainstrea eskrima. Although both have elements of combat in them.

Eskrima is totally applicable to the street. I'm not sure if you watch films, but if not, watch some youtube clips of fight scenes from the Jason Bourne films, "Book Of Eli", the new film "Hannah" and there are many more. Although this is only hollywood and the fight scenes are jazzed up a bit, they are all Eskrima open hand, just do a quick research on the fight choreohraphers. Most action films who want to depict realistic fight scenes today use Eskrima. Here is an example of a jazzed up Eskrima knife fight (with the last fight fight actually being against a Silat blade - -Kerambit and style): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipi4-pgiiP4

Good Eskrima open hand is very close quarter - using elbows to full effect, joint manipulation locks and breaks, targeting cavities and nerves, stand up grappling, great body mechanics movements and excellent footwork, as well as highly painful and powerful hand strikes. At the same time, unlike most other martial arts, it teaches you to be soft, quick and sensitive at the same time - this is the blade influence (you can't go hard against a blade unless you are suicidal). You also learn 'very real' sword, knife and stick fighting skills/principles - in fact you usually learn these first.

All 'real' weapons/blade based martial arts have a huge amount of similarity, as do most 'high level' open hand martial arts. All kalaa comes from one source :-).

Here is Sardara's link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUE7FDeczM8 I think he may have a website also. he certainly has learnt from many teachers and has many cerificates, I am sure he is must be quite good for someone who has been doing this passionately for so long. But you must gel with your teacher and respect/like what he teaches, so as Kalyug said, best thing is try them out. I would give whoever is on your short list at least 3-5 lessons each before you decide to be fair.

As I said, it depends on who your teacher is. Eskrima, Kali or Arnis is not a martial art, these are just the generic terms for martial arts in the Phillipines. The different systems in the Phillipines vary greatly from each other.

If you are ever passing by in London, give me a shout, I'll be happy to advise/explain/show you in person.

[1000]

Khaalis, thanks again for the well detailed post.

You spoilt the movie for me now lol..but in all seriousness, it seems like a great martial art from what is seen.

It looks as if sardara singh also teaches kali, as it seems to mention it on the video. If so I will probably give that a try then.

Have you trained in any arts yourself?

Also your right, gatka is completely unusable really, as I learnt it for many years and would never be able to apply any of that in real life.

What about Silat, i have heard it is very aggressive, how does that compare?

I have also thought of Krav Maga, as that is very much practical. However, I wasn't sure on how much hand to hand combat you would learn from krav.

Your right about weaponary point, its also vital to know how to use them in order to be able to defend against an attack from them. But obv wouldn't want a martial art that solely relies on this. Such as gatka.

So out of the following you reckon eskrima/kali is best? JKD, WC, EC, silat, krav maga, muay thai, eskrima.

And where about in Ldn are you? i might be down there sometime soon.

[Khaalis]

If you can find a good Silat teacher, then that can be a great skill to learn as it is complete. Again Silat is a generic term, in Indonesia you have a plethora of different Silat systems. Maul Mornie and Steve Benitez are the main teachers in the UK, but they are not based in the Midlands. Maul is extremely busy and Steve follows a very traditional curriculum to include learning Jurus in depth (forms). Holland has more options for high level Silat - I have seen seriously dangerous people there. Generally Silat has some of the best take downs and ground fighting (without commitment like BJJ) I have seen, its designed for multiples. It also has decent weapons skills.

Krav I personally don't rate compared to other systems, but it can be good on the street against yobs, again, no real weapons counters. Thats not to say that there are no good krav practitioners. These kind of systems are direct and basic, so good for army/police. The forces do not have the time, money or inclination to learn high level fighting arts because they don't rely on them.

There is no best martial art, only teachers and practitioners with a higher level of understanding. You need to find a teacher who ticks all the boxes. Martial arts is a journey, you don't know whats good until you have experienced whats bad. So go explore :-)

Re Eskrima, my only advice look for a style that does not do stick on stick, that can be your test when speaking to potential teachers.

I teach and continue to study martial arts. I'm based in South London, drop me a mail on yudh@khalsa# .com if you are ever passing by.

[1000]

Thanks again for the reply. Well like you said, ive got to try a few or see whats best for me. To see which instructors are better too.

thanks. wjkk wjkf.