Women In Panj-Piyare?

[jhooldenishan]

I have had this question for a while, and I see a lot of discrimination of Bibiya in Sikhi, when it comes to some things. Such as some people feel that bibiya cannot do seva in Panj-Piyaare and also when we are taking Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, they cannot be part of 'Panjs' because they are women. How is that fair? I thought Sikhi taught equality? How can we stop someone from doing certain seva because they are Women? Has braminmatt gotten into us? Did Waheguru make Men better than Women? if not, then how can we allow these things to happen?

Bhull Chuk Maaf.

[HDSH]

This has been discussed plenty of times on this forum, please use the search feature.

A quick search found me this thread

http://www.sikhsanga...2Bbibia+%2Bpanj

I would also like to add that the western concept of equality (which the current generation is aware of) is not necessarily the same in Gurmat.

[Singhstah]

Bibia most certainly may take part in Panj Pyare Seva. Please refer to Article XXIII b of Panthic Sikh Rehat Maryada:

'b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair'

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

There is no seva in Sikhi which a bibi cannot do.

[Khalasthan86]

Please listen to this properly.
All your answers are here.

[West London Singh]

I would also like to add that the western concept of equality (which the current generation is aware of) is not necessarily the same in Gurmat.

Well then its not equality is it ?

Thats like saying western concepts of the number 'three' is not the same as gurmat.

You either have equality or you don't. Our faith gave us equality but over the years we, as people, have been so influenced by the unequal practices of the Hindus and Muslims around us that we have not only moved away from equality but we've even tried to justify the inequality with gurmat.

[Harmeet_Singh]

Bibia most certainly may take part in Panj Pyare Seva. Please refer to Article XXIII b of Panthic Sikh Rehat Maryada:

'b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair'

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

There is no seva in Sikhi which a bibi cannot do.

A couple of professors and a notebook doesnt make it panthic.

Heres the gurmat view on womens role, given by Sant Ji

Either hes right or you are, i know who I have my trust in.

If thats still not enough

Krith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasvee

paa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||

Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.

Refers to 5 Singhs, not 5 Sikhs, not 5 anything else, but 5 Singhs.

[Harmeet_Singh]

Well then its not equality is it ?

Thats like saying western concepts of the number 'three' is not the same as gurmat.

You either have equality or you don't. Our faith gave us equality but over the years we, as people, have been so influenced by the unequal practices of the Hindus and Muslims around us that we have not only moved away from equality but we've even tried to justify the inequality with gurmat.

Show me a man who can give Birth and ill accept your concept of equality.

If Akal Purakh has made man and women different, physically, emotionally , chemically, physiologically etc.. then who are we to say man and women are the same.

Notice im not implying man is superior, i am just saying man and women are different, neither is higher or lower, better or worse but different. Each has its own roles, its own purpose. Sant Ji says those who say Women should be able to are, nastik.

Your notion of equality implies man=women, so when it comes to marriage if man and women are equal is man+man or women+women ok, in gurmat?

[West London Singh]

^ Congratulations Harmeet Singh......You've just single handedly destroyed the number one selling point of Sikhism in the world........The number one reason that we use to tell Sikh females to stay with sikhism and not go off with muslims..........The number one reason that people around the world describe it as the "best religion" : Complete and utter equality between men and women.

Congratulations. You've just shut the door on half the population of the world. Well done.

Now tell me.......what kind of thick female in this world would be attracted to a faith (as you understand it) that treats her unequally ? You do realise don't you that of all the reasons that non-sikhs give for liking Sikhism the number one reason by far is the equality between the sexes ?

[Singhstah]

A couple of professors and a notebook doesnt make it panthic.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJLDFMNsNUHeres the gurmat view on womens role, given by Sant Jihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI1NhqZ975o&playnext=1&list=PL7C6E53A358364B14Either hes right or you are, i know who I have my trust in.If thats still not enoughKrith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasveepaa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.Refers to 5 Singhs, not 5 Sikhs, not 5 anything else, but 5 Singhs.

If we can't stick to panthic maryada how are we part of the panth? Panthic Maryada says Bibia can be in Panj Pyare. In regards to Srimaan Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa, I will lower my head in respect countless times, however at the same time Baba Jarnail Singh Ji nor any other human is not infallible, Guru Maharaj says:

ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

Bẖulaṇ anḏar sabẖ ko abẖul gurū karṯār.

Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru and the Creator are infallible.

The Guru is in the roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the Panth, and neither say that bibia cannot be in Panj Pyare. We can only follow the Guru above all.

And in regards to your rehatnama quote, there are many different rehats which are universally accepted to apply to both singhs and kaurs,however only the word singh is used, but with the intent to apply to both. Khalsa Panth is known as Panth of Singhs however we know that that applies to both kaur and singh, the term 'Singh' can include Kaurs depending on the context, eg.rehatname.

Show me a man who can give Birth and ill accept your concept of equality.If Akal Purakh has made man and women different, physically, emotionally , chemically, physiologically etc.. then who are we to say man and women are the same.Notice im not implying man is superior, i am just saying man and women are different, neither is higher or lower, better or worse but different. Each has its own roles, its own purpose. Sant Ji says those who say Women should be able to are, nastik. Your notion of equality implies man=women, so when it comes to marriage if man and women are equal is man+man or women+women ok, in gurmat?

Difference does not mean inequality. Also this difference is biological, biology is not related to spirituality. This is why the updesh of Naam given by Satguru (and gursikhi as a whole) transcends all differences of class, caste, gender, etc.

[liveandletlive]

^ Congratulations Harmeet Singh......You've just single handedly destroyed the number one selling point of Sikhism in the world........The number one reason that we use to tell Sikh females to stay with sikhism and not go off with muslims..........The number one reason that people around the world describe it as the "best religion" : Complete and utter equality between men and women.

Congratulations. You've just shut the door on half the population of the world. Well done.

Now tell me.......what kind of thick female in this world would be attracted to a faith (as you understand it) that treats her unequally ? You do realise don't you that of all the reasons that non-sikhs give for liking Sikhism the number one reason by far is the equality between the sexes ?

I agree with Harmeet. We all adopt Equality in the western sense. Saying men and women are different does not make them unequal. Saying women can't to seva of Panj does not make them inferior.

Are husband and wife the same? Are they equal? Most married people have different roles in their home. Similarly men and women have different roles in Sikhi. Does not mean anyone is inferior or seen as weak or UNEQUAL.

The problem is we get our ideas from school, media and other social factors. Just because something may not make sense to us does not make it wrong.

Someone once told me that if you go to a Guru Ghar and try to do a particular seva and someone stops you, you should move on and do something different. Remember Nimrata. Problem is we have so much ego we start arguing.

So our women run off and convert to islam to be equal do they? Do they think they will be equal in islam? lol

Our selling point? Sikhi has numerous Shaheeds of whom some were women. Try that for a selling point.

Before sikhi women were not allowed to pray in some religion. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj changed this.

A women has as much chance to achieve Mukhti as a man in Sikhi. Women probably have the most important role in Sikhi. They give birth to great Gursikhs.

If being part of the Panj was the only way to reach our lifes goal then sure we could stand up and say this is not eqaulity. But trust me this isn't the be and and end all of life.