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gurmukhsodhi
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California sardar, how ya doin?

I will try to answer yoru question as follows :

1. Hindu punajbis formed the Khalsa army under Guru Govind Singh adn became part of hsi army / panth to fight the mughals, there families at the time, ie sisters, brothers, parents would most likely have remained Hindu, AGAIN THERE WASNT at the time such a clear distinction between who is hindu and who is sikh.

You see it wasnt a case of Hindus being butchered by muslism and the sikhs arrivign form the moon to save them!!! lol

2. Now lets say you are a Hindu punjabi and your ELDER brother joined the khalsa panth and became known as a sikh, however by the time you grew older you did not chose to join, and became a farmer or business man, YOU BOTH would still be brothers, and your children would still be cousins.

3. Over time, after the passing of the sikh gurus, and the time of the British empire, when one of the requirements of joining the British army was to be a Khalsa, many Hindu punjabis in punjab, wanted theor sons to join the british army as it paid well, and offered status and therefore had no problem, with their son being regarded as khalsa or sikh.

4. I am a Hindu punjabi - Rajput - by caste, and my dads uncles are/were sardars and my dads first cousin ( mums brothers son), is a nihung in punjab! When we meet him, and his kids, we are 1 family and the word hindu or sikh doesnt come into it. His son is also a nihung and is my 2nd cousin, but to me he is just my younger cousin, and !

Although this tradition is now dying out as the distinction between who si sikh and who is Hindu is becoming stricter, THERE are many HINDU PUNJABI FAMILIES WHOSE FIRST COUSINS ARE SIKH PUNJABI.

5. My best friend is a Dhillon (Hindu punjabi - jat ), whose dad is a Hindu punjabi, but his dads brother is a Sardar and calls himself a Sikh, and hsi kids are jat - SIKH, lol

You see it wasnt a matter of Hindu punjabis seeking protection from Sikhs, it was themselves who became a part of the khalsa army to defend themselves as they had been doing for 100's of years, and just as some members of the family became khalsa, many remained HINDU. but again this doesnt detract fom the blood ties and relations, adn LOVE families have for one another. this also accounts for why many sikh families stil practice rakhri, lohri which are Hindu traditions.

I hope I have answered your question, Peace

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That clocks actually insulting to hindus, its not as if the Hindus were getting killed by muslims and sikhs landed from the moon? lol

It was the Hindu punjabis themselves that made up the Khalsa army under Guru Gobind Singh. after the fighting, many of them remained as Sikh whilst others went back to their Hindu religiuos ways, There wasnt such a strict dividing line, religious wise in those days.

AS FOR HINDUS DEFENDING THEMSELVES AND THEIR DHARMA, dont forget at patiton 84 per cent of India was still Hindu, ( if Hindus were that weak, and bearing in mind that siksh were in only in punjab how come the other parts of India still remained Hindu, if Hindus were that weak surely the other parts of India would all have been muslim? )

......and if I take you back further, dont forget that after Prophet Mohammed died in 632, Islam was spread by teh swrod over modern day iran, iraq, syria, turkey, afghansitan etc within 20 years,and India was first attacked in 652, and was defended valiantly for 450 years by Hindu warriors/Rajputs until the first Islamic rule was established in 1000ad, in modern day Pakistan parts of north india, even then the hindus valiantly kept on fighting and guru nanak ji was born a in 1469, in a Hindu family, this is evidence itself that Hindus managed to preserve their identity in punjab, north India, Almost a 1000 years before nanak devji's birth.

East, West and South parts of India were also valiantly defended, although it wasnt under the barage of attacks, Punjab was under

My uncles are Sardars, but their dad was a Hindu, its just the way things were done, up unitl as recently as 60 - 70 years ago, when one son would became a sikh in the Hindu family.

As for Santa and Banta, it was a Sikh historian/journalist Mr Khushwant singh who started the Santa banta thing, as Jassa ji, has so eloquently said, So why not balme him instead of blaiming Hindus and makiing conspiracy theories?

BOTTOM line is ALL the Hindus (mostly Hindu punjabis), I know respect and have love for Sikhs and we dont see you guys as competition or a seperate race or as an enemy, like some of YOU see us!

We see you as a seperate relgion but as our Dharmic brothers neverthelss, a family.

Dear Vir, I agree with you on some aspects but don’t on many. So I want to clear some points.

1. How hindus survive for 1000 years before Guru Nanak Dev Ji birth?

Ans. The attack of Dara Sikoh did not mean that he would conquer the whole India in his lifetime. That time some parts of Afganistan and Pakistan were in India but one person was not able to conquered India. The Muslims won the land of Very Very North-west area but they did not see much wealth in that area so they gave up the idea of further looting in the country. They did not take interest in the country till Gajnavi. The aim of Gajnavi was only to loot the country, he came and looted the country and then went to his homeland. He could have rule over the country if he wished. Mohammed Gori’s came and with the help of his commander kutubdin he conquered the large north part of india. Due to transport system of that time their successors could not win the southern part of india. How far they went to crush the Hindus society the whole world can see.The killing or conversion of Millions of People can’t be done within even 100years.

AS FOR HINDUS DEFENDING THEMSELVES AND THEIR DHARMA, dont forget at patiton 84 per cent of India was still Hindu, ( if Hindus were that weak, and bearing in mind that siksh were in only in punjab how come the other parts of India still remained Hindu, if Hindus were that weak surely the other parts of India would all have been muslim? )

My veer, Why Guru tegh bahadur ji is called the Hind di chadar is that at that time Kashmir was the center of hindus society of india Aurangzeb thought that if he could convert the kashmiri Brahmins into the islam, the whole country would be Converted to Islam. So guru ji gave his up his head and save the honour of India. In that sense it is said that sikh defended the Hindus.

BTW, you are right that sikhs are not come from heaven. most of the ancestor of modern sikhs were hindu.

Kindly forgive me because my english is very poor. I cant describe my feelings properly.

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Gurmukh ji, your english is fine dont worry.

I also agree with soem of yoru points but disagree with others, I will explain:

1. Due to the empire of Asokha ( who was a Buddist), Much of modern day Afghanistan and Pakistan was Buddist when India was first attacked, and it was many them that were covnerted to Islam during and after the first tiem India was attacked in the year 652ad. It was only the Hindus, mainly rajputs adn jatt tribes that put up a resistance.

2. Dara Sikoh was power hungry adn hsi aim was to conquer and rule, however due to his lack of resources, terrain, and strong resistance was unable to establish muslim rule.

3. Gajnavi was also stopped by OUR ancestors and the best he could do was loot like a thief!

4. Mahmus Gauri, only established rule over modern day afghanistan, pakistan and very northern parts of India, He didnt even rule 20 per cent of modern day INDIA.

5. Even the strongest of Mughal rulers Aurangzeb, couldnt defeat the Great Marathas, led by Chhatrapatti Shivaji, Baji Rao, and their successors, and in 1679, Aurangzeb raised the largest army the world had ever seen at the point consisting of 600,000 soldiers and 400,000 elephants and horses and went to the state of Maharashtra, where he spent the last 25 years of hsi life in VAIN trying to defeat the marathas, until he died aged 90 in 1707. Even so the Marathas were undeterred and remained Hindu and protected central and southern India. In the north Guru obind Singh ji and the khalsa were fighting off Wazir Khan, Aurangzebs Governor of Punjab.

6. By the time the British arrived and established rule, the Mughal raj had already been severly defeated in most parts of India, and thats why even at independance ONLY around 14 per cent of India was MUSLIM.

7. The religions adn the people of the middle east FELL to Islam within 20 years of Mohammeds passing, but our India never did!

8. Kashmir was the centre of Hindu society for the Kashmiris, but not for Hindus in general, as Kurukshetra, Ayodhya, VARANASI, where Hindus to bathe in the river Ganges, and the tempels buitl by Raj Raja in the SOUTH of India were the centres of Hindu Society.

Here are the centres of Hindusim in different parts of India :

North Indian temples

216px-Kedarnath_Temple.jpgKedarnath Temple dedicated to Shiva, in Kedarnath, Uttarakhand216px-Hindu_Temple_at_Tilla_Gogian.jpgHindu temple at Tilla Jogian, PakistanMost ordinary temples in North Indian rituals are very simple in stark contrast to South Indian temples which have elaborate rituals. Also North Indian temples often tend to be less orthodox and in many cases everybody are permitted to enter the innermost sanctum of the deity and worship the deity personally. In such cases, the deity is not adorned with valuable jewelry. The innermost heart of the temple is the sanctum where the deity (usually of fixed stone) is present, followed by a large hall for lay worshipers to stand in and obtain "darshan" or divine audience. There may or may not be many more surrounding corridors, halls etc. However there will be space for devotees to go around the temple in clock wise fashion circumambulation as a mark of respect. In North Indian temples, the tallest towers are built over the sanctum sanctorum.

One example of a type of more elaborate North Indian temple is the style of temple known as the Shikharbaddha Mandir found in Northern and Western India, and particularly famous in the Swaminarayan Hindu tradition. These temples have towers, or shikharas, built over the sanctum sanctorum, in which the deity is installed.[6]

South Indian temples

216px-Illuminated_temple_in_the_evening.JPGTemple in Kerala216px-Tirumalatemple.jpgBalaji temple of TirupatiMany large bannabs (grand stone temples) still stand in South India. Ritual tends to be orthodox and elaborate especially in the large vedic brahmincal temples, which follow the pan-Indian Sanskrit agama scriptural traditions. Apart from the main fixed stone deities, processional deities made of panchaloha (an alloy of gold, silver, copper, zinc and tin) are bathed, dressed, decorated with valuables and taken out in processions for festivals throughout the year. The richer the temple, the more elaborate the festivals. However, many ancient temples in small villages with great architectural and historical heritage value languish for lack of funds for maintenance.

Famous South Indian temples are Thirupati temple, Andhra; Mookambi temple, Karnataka; Chennakesava temple, Belur (Karnataka); Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple, Kerala; Sabarimala temple, Kerala; Guruvayoor temple, Kerala; Kodungallor temple, Kerala; Anikkattilammakshethram, kerala; Kanyakumari temple, Tamilnadu (TN); Madurai Meenakshi Amman Temple, Tamilnadu; Srirangam Ranganathar temple and Thiruvanaikaval temple of Tiruchi, TN; Golden Temple of Sripuram, TN; Brihadeshwara temple, Thanjavur, TN; oldest temples such as Kailasanathar[disambiguation needed] temple, Varatharajaperumal temple, Kamakshi temple and Ekambareshwarar temple of Kanchipuram, TN; Thirukadiyur Abirami temple, TN; Andal temple, Srivilliputhur, TN; Natarajar temple, Chidambaram, TN; Kumbeshwara, Kumbakonam, TN; Thiruvannaamalai temple, Tamil Nadu; Palani temple, Tamilnadu; Kodungallor temple, Kerala; Chettikulangara Devi temple, Kerala; Aranmula Parthasarathy temple, Kerala; Tripunithura sree Poornathrayesa, Kerala.

[edit] Temples in Orissa & other parts of India

220px-Jameswar_Temple.jpg <A class=internal title=Enlarge href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jameswar_Temple.jpg' class='thumbimage' alt='""' />magnify-clip.png<A title="Yameshwar Temple" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yameshwar_Temple">Yameshwar Temple near <A title=Bhubaneswar href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhubaneswar">Bhubaneswar,Eastern IndiaTemples often greatly vary in their appearance, rituals, traditions, <A class=mw-redirect title=Festivals href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals">festivals and customs from region to region. Temples in eastern state of <A title=Orissa href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa">Orissa and <A class=mw-redirect title="Western India" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_India">Western India also have their distinctions. In the south, Kerala temples are very different from temples in the other three states.

<A class=image href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Konark_Temple.jpg">220px-Konark_Temple.jpg <A class=internal title=Enlarge href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Konark_Temple.jpg' class='thumbimage' alt='""' />magnify-clip.png(<A class=mw-redirect title="Sun Temple" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Temple">Sun Temple at Konark,Orissa)

The most world famous temples i.e. <A class=mw-redirect title="Jagannath temple" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagannath_temple">Jagannath temple at Puri, <A class=mw-redirect title="Sun temple" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_temple">Sun temple at Konark, <A class=mw-redirect title="Lingaraj temple" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingaraj_temple">Lingaraj temple at bhubaneswar are found in Odisha. These temples are over 1200 years old. In Bhubaneswar, around 10,000 temples are present which represents strong Hindusim in Orissa.

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The Hindu punjabis and the Sikhs defended North of India VALIANTLY and were most under attack, however India is larger than the whole of europe, and saying we saved the people of Orissa or Tamil Nadu, or Calcutta or the would be like saying I ( sitting in london) saved someone living in Athens Greece, or Moscow, Russia!

We should NEVER discredit the efforts of those Hindus - MORE IMPORTANTLY humans who defended themsleves and their lands in other parts of modern day INDIA,

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California sardar, how ya doin?

I will try to answer yoru question as follows :

1. Hindu punajbis formed the Khalsa army under Guru Govind Singh adn became part of hsi army / panth to fight the mughals, there families at the time, ie sisters, brothers, parents would most likely have remained Hindu, AGAIN THERE WASNT at the time such a clear distinction between who is hindu and who is sikh.

You see it wasnt a case of Hindus being butchered by muslism and the sikhs arrivign form the moon to save them!!! lol

2. Now lets say you are a Hindu punjabi and your ELDER brother joined the khalsa panth and became known as a sikh, however by the time you grew older you did not chose to join, and became a farmer or business man, YOU BOTH would still be brothers, and your children would still be cousins.

3. Over time, after the passing of the sikh gurus, and the time of the British empire, when one of the requirements of joining the British army was to be a Khalsa, many Hindu punjabis in punjab, wanted theor sons to join the british army as it paid well, and offered status and therefore had no problem, with their son being regarded as khalsa or sikh.

4. I am a Hindu punjabi - Rajput - by caste, and my dads uncles are/were sardars and my dads first cousin ( mums brothers son), is a nihung in punjab! When we meet him, and his kids, we are 1 family and the word hindu or sikh doesnt come into it. His son is also a nihung and is my 2nd cousin, but to me he is just my younger cousin, and !

Although this tradition is now dying out as the distinction between who si sikh and who is Hindu is becoming stricter, THERE are many HINDU PUNJABI FAMILIES WHOSE FIRST COUSINS ARE SIKH PUNJABI.

5. My best friend is a Dhillon (Hindu punjabi - jat ), whose dad is a Hindu punjabi, but his dads brother is a Sardar and calls himself a Sikh, and hsi kids are jat - SIKH, lol

You see it wasnt a matter of Hindu punjabis seeking protection from Sikhs, it was themselves who became a part of the khalsa army to defend themselves as they had been doing for 100's of years, and just as some members of the family became khalsa, many remained HINDU. but again this doesnt detract fom the blood ties and relations, adn LOVE families have for one another. this also accounts for why many sikh families stil practice rakhri, lohri which are Hindu traditions.

I hope I have answered your question, Peace

Thanks for your reply. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Hindus from different parts of India had to seek the protection of a small minority concentrated in Punjab. But, at least from my understanding, the situation in Punjab was different from most parts of India. Most of India had huge Hindu majorities, but I think Punjab and surrounding areas had large Muslim majorities. Also, when various Muslim groups would invade from the west (such as the Afghans, who invaded after the Mughal empire began to crumble), they went through Punjab. I'm just wondering if the ability to seek whatever protection Sikhs could offer may have been a practical consideration in Punjab. I certainly agree that in most parts of India that would never even be a consideration.

I know that the Khalsa armies were filled with people of Hindu origin. I was just curious about why some groups of Punjabis had the tradition of having mixed Sikh/Hindu families while others converted completely to Sikhism. I think a lot of what you said makes sense: many Punjabi Hindus did not view the two religions as being far apart, and becoming Sikh was almost more of a commitment to join the Khalsa army than it was a religious conversion.

I did not know that there were any Dhillons who were Hindu. I know that Haryana is filled with Hindu Jats, but I thought that the Jat clans of Punjab were either Muslim or Sikh, and that virtually all Jat clans left in East Punjab after the partition of 1947 were Sikh.

By the way, is the practice of having mixed Sikh/Hindu families basically dead now, or is it still going on?

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It was the Hindu punjabis themselves that made up the Khalsa army under Guru Gobind Singh. after the fighting, many of them remained as Sikh whilst others went back to their Hindu religiuos ways, There wasnt such a strict dividing line, religious wise in those days.

Hinduveer

With due respect Even the 100 million Muslim Punjabi's of Pakistan are from Hindu descendents .A religion affect lots on Human personality that's why Jains never became warriors .So when Hindu's joined Khalsa fold they became sikhs and the spirit of shaheedi of khalsa made them very good warriors.

5. Even the strongest of Mughal rulers Aurangzeb, couldnt defeat the Great Marathas, led by Chhatrapatti Shivaji, Baji Rao, and their successors, and in 1679, Aurangzeb raised the largest army the world had ever seen at the point consisting of 600,000 soldiers and 400,000 elephants and horses and went to the state of Maharashtra, where he spent the last 25 years of hsi life in VAIN trying to defeat the marathas, until he died aged 90 in 1707. Even so the Marathas were undeterred and remained Hindu and protected central and southern India. In the north Guru obind Singh ji and the khalsa were fighting off Wazir Khan, Aurangzebs Governor of Punjab.

No doubt Shivaji was very good warrior but unfortunately the record of Hindu's kings was terrible against the muslims from Dahir to third battle of Panipat Hindu's constantly lost wars even when odds were in favour of them so instead of bragging about one Hindu ruler its better Hindu's do soul searching why they loose.Even at present Muslims kicked out Pandits and they did not show any resistance.In Bangladesh Hindu's are now reduced to 8.5% from 33% froom start of 20 th century

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Off topic, but its warranted. The above poster kds1980 is not who you think he is. At Sikhawareness.com he slanders members of this forum and then cast a slander at this forum for purposely starting topics just to get posts. Here is the link, if the mods allow it. http://www.sikhaware..._15#entry126117 He writes as kdsingh80 at Sikhawareness.com

Anyways, everyone can go back on topic.

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California sardar ji, good discussion and its nice we agree on a lot of things. I enjoyed ur post. Thanks only five ji, for pointing out kds, and altho i got very good answers to the rubbish he talks, with proof, I wont bother now, as I dont want to discuss with a troublemaker. Sat sri akal to u kds.

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Btw, calofornia , no the practice of mixed punjabi and sikh families is not dead in india or uk. We have very large hindu sikh rajput presence in uk and india, and are linked by blood ties and pyar. I also know of many sunyar, brahmin, jat mixed hindu sikh families. Now meeting a brahmin sikh, surname or ghotra CHIBBAR, was a shocker, lol as i didnt know they existed, but why not hey, ? Bhai mati das and sati das were brahmin caste, right?

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Off topic, but its warranted. The above poster kds1980 is not who you think he is. At Sikhawareness.com he slanders members of this forum and then cast a slander at this forum for purposely starting topics just to get posts. Here is the link, if the mods allow it. http://www.sikhaware..._15#entry126117 He writes as kdsingh80 at Sikhawareness.com

Anyways, everyone can go back on topic.

Just out of interest in the link you provided what kds1980 said about you, with regards to being a member on SPN and SA true? Qoutes below.

"At first you have very good relation with SPN team then suddenly You went against them and became a fan of SA and then when you don't find your views similar to members here you left this site too"

BTW I don't frequent them sites.

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Just out of interest in the link you provided what kds1980 said about you, with regards to being a member on SPN and SA true? Qoutes below.

"At first you have very good relation with SPN team then suddenly You went against them and became a fan of SA and then when you don't find your views similar to members here you left this site too"

BTW I don't frequent them sites.

It's no secret that i wrote at SPN. But as soon as i found out that SPN is a forum to spread antigurmat views. Then i didn't hestitate to let the mods or the admins there know how i felt and i stopped writing there. People like kds1980 make it sound like a secret so then the heat can be taken off of him and his bosses; SPN. And i never had a good relation with that team because they would always take gurmat ideas and add their own manmat ideas. This is the way they get young Sikhs to follow their atheist views. One member of their elite team is very clever at hiding his true feels toward SIkhi. He calls himself Gyani, but as soon as I gave him the book, at a akj forum, he ran for the hills and said i won't write at this akj site anymore. .

And i still write at SA. My last post on that site were deleted because they were off topic; this was the reason given by the mod. BTW it was a thread on Niddar....lol....mod sent me a pm saying what you said is exactly correct about niddar.....So i don't know what kds1980 is talking about. Hes still trying to take the camera off of him so then people won't recognize, hes working for SPN on other forums. Kds1980 says sorry, but if he wanted to point the accusation he did at this site, then he should have surely known that SPN is starting threads only to get more posts. But he never writes or mentions SPN in any of the convo. Is it surprising...no. As a black man would say, Nigga gotta get paid.....lol.....kds1980 is doing is hustle..lol

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