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We havnt has this issue for the last 300 odd years, why is it creeping up now. Lower the floor for those who cannot sit on floor, but in no way should chairs be permanently installed, soho road should know better.

It's quite sad really that we are debating over this issue.

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These were probably for people who struggle to sit on the floor due to some disability such as old people, disabled people etc. don't blow it out of proportion.

Some peoples views on here are Foolish and laughable to say the least. Firstly, when Baba Nanak went to Mecca, he faced his feet towards the Kaaba. This was not just because the kaaba is a rock or an

Mandela has received information that on Sunday 28th August 2011 a major beadbi took place during a wedding in the main Darbar Sahib upstairs. The sangat during the wedding managed to take chairs into

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We havnt has this issue for the last 300 odd years, why is it creeping up now. Lower the floor for those who cannot sit on floor, but in no way should chairs be permanently installed, soho road should know better.

It's quite sad really that we are debating over this issue.

Mandela has you hit the nail on the head.

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WJKK WJKF

Probably not had this issue for the last 300 yrs as along with all other public places where disabled access was non existent before. And people with disabilities never got heard, or no awareness was done for them.

Nowadays disabled people are treated as equals, and have become more independent, or try to become more independent, including in terms of raising awareness of wat would help them to make their lives easier so they can too have that right to services that others have.

The Equality Act 2010 (EA) gives disabled people important rights of access to everyday services. Service providers have an obligation to make reasonable adjustments to premises or to the way they provide a service. Sometimes it just takes minor changes to make a service accessible.

This is the reason probably why the gurdwaras have put chairs in darbar sahib. I am not trying to educate anybody or trying to do beadbi of our sikhi values. But it is 2011 now, and it hurts me, to read such as "put them in a separate room with a window" Hahaha, so there again somebody like me still cannot be part of sangat. I may aswell stay at home then, and carry on watching sikh channel.

How would you like it if you were put in a separate room and not be able to join in within the community, its not as if we're going to do fast sports or do trampolining.

All I want to do is to be able to listen to path and kirtan when I go to the gurdwara, is that really too much to ask for?

I'll give an example of wat its like for me to go out not only to gurdwara but to other public places:

This is wat goes through my mind b4 i plan to go:

1. Is there going to be anywhere for me to sit, when my body cannot hold up for as long as it wants, as with my condition, I dont know wat will happen, I could be sitting there fine, or next 10mins my body will not be able to cope with it. Or I could be sitting for half hour, it all depends on my body.

2. I think of how many people are likely to be there, in case of getting bumped into due to weakness, this is why i tend to go when there is not much sangat. and to be honest that time suits me fine, as in the mornings my condition is not very good.

3. Is there any toilets where I am going?

4. Access, will i be able to get into the premises without falling over, without having to get out of breath.

These are just some of the things that come to mind, but the fear and worry is there for going out. Then once im at the gurdwara, it takes me ages to settle down once im sat down, out of breath, get panic attacks as not used to sitting in sangat, or with lots of people, as dont really go out that much.

With me I am able to sit for a bit, but i'm also thinking as a person with disabilites, i can got to doctors, stores, banks, cinemas, etc without worry as i know wat is there.

For others with disabilities that are worse off than me, wat would it be like, do they ever go to gurdwara?

I want to see Baba Ranjit Singh when they come to the gurdwara, but the points above have all to be considered,and to be honest its putting me off from going, due to the fact Im thinking gurdwaras, are making gyms and providing services for all, but people like me are neither here nor there, so we cannot join in the activities due to energy levels.

And then my minds thinking, i cant even sit in sangat for long, but would love to go to gurdwara now and again. But to me Im feeling up until now, have the committess made them only for healthy people to attend, so that they dont get many disabled people coming or people with health conditions?

Dont they want people like us coming?

Are we like not part of the sangat?

Coz thats wat I've been feeling for years.

Khalistan Zindabaad has a point, yes lower the floors, why havent the commitees ever thought of this before now?

Fair enough there are disabled toilets in some gurdwaras, and access for them up to a certain extent. But that means then they cant sit in darbar sahib, and just can sit downstairs. Maybe thats why they dont bother going, as they know they cannot be part of sangat properly.

Dont really see many disabled parking spaces either. If there is probably one or two which are always full.

Its not just in gurdwaras, im sure the problem occurs in mandirs, mosques too.

So for me its upsetting that, goshhhh all these years, so many people not been able to have same as others, i dont feel like going now to gurdwara, from reading things like we are not worthy of sitting in front of guruji.

anyways, its left me sad, and end of, Im not even going to bother writing nomore.

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We havnt has this issue for the last 300 odd years, why is it creeping up now. Lower the floor for those who cannot sit on floor, but in no way should chairs be permanently installed, soho road should know better.

It's quite sad really that we are debating over this issue.

300 years ago, desis used to ride on an ox cart. How many people do you see doing that now days? Lets all give up cars because 300 years ago this was not an issue, people still used to go from A to B. Sikhi is very simple but we make it complex. It is a very welcoming religion, no one is excluded through caste, religion, disability, financiall well-being or other criteria but we always find ways to exclude people who want to be Sikhs .

If the issue is of someone being at the same level as Guruji then even with chairs the indvidual is physically lower than Guruji. I think disabled people feel bad enough not being able to sit on the floor like everyone else, they don't need anyone else to make them feel worse.

Where is the compassion? Kattarpuna (Fundamentalism) has no place in Sikhi.

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Lets not get childish and start throwing the old fundamentalist vs moderate terminology around. It's boring and the quickest way to score points without having to raise valid points. Rant over.

Compassion in Sikhi may extend beyond the physical, perhaps the people against chairs are considering the karam created by use/ abuse of these? And that by inadvertently creating further karam the person is putting themselves at further disadvantage? Perhaps?

I understand the development of disability awareness and needs, and in the same way as that has developed over the years it will take time to develop facilities to accommodate disabled needs in gurdwaras too. Installing chairs or permanent benches is a quick but bad response as it's clear the dangers it presents. Ie that the numbers grow until darbars turn into church halls with more and more people (able) people saying they can't sit, cross their legs etc. It'll be difficult to reign back once started. Southall is a good example of a good and practical solution and more healthy discussion should take place to discuss ideas whilst maintaining guru sahibs darbar and the maryada as much as possible.

An example of the chair culture was on sangat tv this weekend. An event at babe ke, and the mayors wife was sitting on a chair, probably Cus of not being able to sit in a skirt. Rather than accommodate this, it'd be better to educate about dress code and practicality in a darbar.

As well as appreciating disabled needs, we also need to be aware of the importance of the darbar, it's maryada, and spiritual importance. This can then lead to fair dialogue rather than lashing out at each other.

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I agree with khalistan zindabad, no permanent chairs should be installed at all. This will only cause more permanent manmat minded people to abuse the system. If you think not then why are there parties halls right next to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj? First it was just a hall for gurmat functions, then it came to be a hall for manmat practices. If you can't see this then just walk away from this discussion now, cuz you will just embrass yourself.

SIKHI IS ABOUT COMPASSION, BUT NOT ABOUT BEING NAIVE. which some posters have clearly shown they are. No offences, but seriously get out of fantasy island. Gurdwaras need to accomandate for those that can't sit on the floor. No one is denying this and there is no need for childish comments like we have cars now, etc Actually these kind of comments can be very easily reversed and shoved in the posters face, but i'll leave that out, because it won't be productive here....hint, hint!....lol

300 years ago, the disabled people were carried around in carts, so this car non sense is very much backward thinking. Let me continue with this car nonsense. Don't you think Satguru would have provided proper carts for those that visited Sri Darbar Sahib and were disabled? Where was Satguru's compassion????? I'm leave it at this, but we all know this can go further and posters can get more humour out of this car nonsense.

What should and needs to be done is that wheel chairs should be placed at a proper location for the disabled people. Either the disabled people can wheel them around or they can get a family member or sevadar to help them. Before the permanent manmat minded permanent chairs in Sri Darbar Sahib crew jump on me for not thinking about how will the disabled wheel the wheelchair down the stairs. They should know that their permanent chairs can't be wheeled down the stairs either and they can't be moved so this just makes the disabled person worse off. Nice try, but keep reading. With the wheelchair the disabled person can move from one place to another without depending on another or hurting themselves because the permanent chair doesn't move. With permanent chairs how do you accomandate for the disabled person who needs to walk out of Sri Darbar Sahib or go before Satguru? Permanent chairs in Sri Darbar Sahib are worse than not having anything for disabled people. If the langar hall and Sri Darbar Sahib are on two floors then elevators should be placed in the Gurdwaras. Those that support the permanent chair idea need to get strong backs because you will be carrying these diabled people around the Gurdwara on your back. So go join a gym and get those dead lifts going.

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Only Five, I agree with your solution that wheelchairs should be provided and not permanent chairs so it is clear who the intended users of the chairs are. However, I don't think you can easily shove the car comment back to my face.

Don't you think Satguru would have provided proper carts for those that visited Sri Darbar Sahib and were disabled?

Guru ji came and met sangat from kabul and did their seva before the sangat reached Amritsar (http://guruarjandev.com/sangatkabul.htm). These people were not disabled but had travelled a long distance. Imagine what our Guru ji's would do for a disabled person. So yes, Guru ji would have provided carts for disabled people. However majority of the time it was the family members of the disabled person who would take them to see Guru ji in their family cart so no carts were needed.

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Only Five, I agree with your solution that wheelchairs should be provided and not permanent chairs so it is clear who the intended users of the chairs are. However, I don't think you can easily shove the car comment back to my face.

Guru ji came and met sangat from kabul and did their seva before the sangat reached Amritsar (http://guruarjandev....sangatkabul.htm). These people were not disabled but had travelled a long distance. Imagine what our Guru ji's would do for a disabled person. So yes, Guru ji would have provided carts for disabled people. However majority of the time it was the family members of the disabled person who would take them to see Guru ji in their family cart so no carts were needed.

I'm glad you didn't take my sacrasm seriously. What you speak of is an isolated event of Guru ji. Guru Sahib held Diwan at Sri Harmandir Sahib regularly and there is the instance of Rajni (the women who was married to a man who was disabled and she carried her husband to Harmandir Sahib for Guru Sahib darshan). As history tell us the couple were very poor and didn't even have enough for food. Also history tell us she carried her husband in a basket. Lastly I was equating a car to a cart(due to your car and time comment). So you really didn't catch on to what i was saying. Just to make it clearer. They had carts then, so that would mean why would we disown cars now (with the whole 300 year thing)? The time comment related to the car thing really becomes immaterial and jargon when looked at in this way.

I still want to stress get the dead lift work out going for those that want the permanent chair manmat idea carried out....maybe get some other leg work outs going aswell. the walk might be long for you some time. And don't count on all of them being sincere on where they want to go. So your in for the long haul.

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Slightly off topic but still related. Most Gurdwareh in UK anyway, are over a few floors. I have only seen in one Gurdwara were I go where there is a disabled users lift downstairs which is like those for wheelchair users or those who cant walk stairs like the elderly which then goes directly into the darbar sahib. I don't know how to describe it its like a lift which is able to accomdate a few people and easily a wheelchair, at the back of the darbar sahib theres like a white box with a door and that's the lift. (located at Guru AmarDas Gurdwara Leicester). The thing is this gurdwara is not very big and theres not huge amounts of sangat like the bigger gurdwareh, but they have facilitated for those who are unfortunate to not be able to walk stairs, why is there not more like this in other gurughars. I know there are lifts in some other gurdwareh but they are just normal lifts to go up and down floors (normally were there when the building was bought). I personally feel gurdwareh where there are no commitee elections etc. get things done and show transparency. They work for the sangat. Lets face it during the day majority of those at gurdwareh in weekdays are the elderly who need help with or strugle going up down stairs.

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Guys and girls, please remember what our Guru ji's were like. They were the kind of individuals who would not hesitate to wipe the feet of holy saints with their beard or to do seva of sangat who was visiting from kabul or other places.

Whist we must maintain satkaar of Guru Granth sahib je, we must also remember the satkaar of Sangat because Guru and Sangat are the same.

if a disabled person came to see guru ji and could not sit on the floor then do you think Guru ji will mind that person sitting at the same level as Guru ji?

I think, benches, lowered floor are all good compromises as long as Guru ji's palki is still higher.

This is a briiliant point. Guru Ji is the Guru for all wanting to connect with God! People with a physical disability have the same mind as people without a physical disability. Anyone with respect for Guru Ji comes to the Gurdwara to be at the Guru's feet and get Guru Ji's blessings and protection. Making sure Guru Ji's Palki, in all Gurdware, is high enough, is a great suggestion!

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My local Gurdwara has a bench at the back and from my own experience, no one wants to actually sit on them. Even the people who i personally would consider acceptable to sit on them would rather struggle and sit on the floor. Everyone prefers to sit on the floor, its only those that can't even matha tekh that actually utilise them.

On a packed Sunday divan, no-one wants to be the guy that sits on the bench as people all look and in their mind question..."should he/she be even sitting on the bench".

i can only speak of my experience...no-one choses to sit on the benches...its a majbooree.

Baki, i think lowering the floor is the best compromise

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mandela needs to stop referring to himself in third person, if you really actually cared instead of trying and failing to take pictures properly, you shouldve took matters in your own hands instead of being a little girl and ranting on a forum, keyboard warrior not a warrior of the panth, need to get your s*** in order mate

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mandela needs to stop referring to himself in third person, if you really actually cared instead of trying and failing to take pictures properly, you shouldve took matters in your own hands instead of being a little girl and ranting on a forum, keyboard warrior not a warrior of the panth, need to get your s*** in order mate

Mandela is a coward of a man but surely you are the real deal so can you sort it out for the panth. Mandela feels you are the man.

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so trying to provoke me into a fight of some sort via private message is the answer then mandela, notoriousksj is laughing/worried by the delusion of mandela, notoriousksj apologises for any offence caused, notoriousksj shouldnt have referred to you as a little girl and implied that you didnt care but the rest stands!

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