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Another cult leader that wears Guru Sahib's Bana was summoned to Sri Akal Takht Sahib for this kind of beadbi. But his punishment was very small. He agreed not to let it happen again. The above videos were uploaded in april of 2009. This cult leader has now done the same and let's see what happens to him. This cult leader has a close relation with the Jathedars. I think i say a picture of the current Sri Akal Takht Sahib Jathedar honor this cult leader. Download the videos and sent them to Sri Akal Takht Sahib. Most likely this cult leaders followers and those that love him so much will try to delete them off the net and make it out to be it never happened.

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Another cult leader that wears Guru Sahib's Bana was summoned to Sri Akal Takht Sahib for this kind of beadbi. But his punishment was very small. He agreed not to let it happen again. The above videos were uploaded in april of 2009. This cult leader has now done the same and let's see what happens to him. This cult leader has a close relation with the Jathedars. I think i say a picture of the current Sri Akal Takht Sahib Jathedar honor this cult leader. Download the videos and sent them to Sri Akal Takht Sahib. Most likely this cult leaders followers and those that love him so much will try to delete them off the net and make it out to be it never happened.

I think You need sangat of Sant Mahapursh. and if you have done; then i think You are not able to take full advantage of his teachings.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Guys Tell Me one thing,

We say Akal Purakh is Sarab Veapak. He is everywhere. Then We dance ,Clap or do something wrong in Hide @ that time we donot think about that we did Bad or He is watching us. Atleast what ever they are doing is in Hazoori of SGGSJI, what about us??

Akal Purakh in Nirgun Saroop is everywhere. Then in Sargun form he is Satguru. If you think its the same then everytime you walk around with your shoes on or at all then you disrespected Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. Infact, are part of the jain religion, who doesn't drink water or anything? So your saying if someone does something wrong in the presence of Satguru then it's okay? Its time for you to go back to grade school of Sikhi.

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I think You need sangat of Sant Mahapursh. and if you have done; then i think You are not able to take full advantage of his teachings.

Before someone does Sangat of so called Sants, they need to do sangat of the Holy Saint who holds all under his protection and gives the spiritual wisdom to separate the fake from the truthful. So first look for the sangat of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj and then come back and say the above to me.

A Sant holds on to the respect of Satguru. This fake doesn't even attempt to stop the beadbi taking place. There are many Brahmins out there with wisdom that will drive a person into believing what they believe. This fake is nothing special and will face the fate as the one before him.

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  • 1 month later...

Akal Purakh in Nirgun Saroop is everywhere. Then in Sargun form he is Satguru. If you think its the same then everytime you walk around with your shoes on or at all then you disrespected Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. Infact, are part of the jain religion, who doesn't drink water or anything? So your saying if someone does something wrong in the presence of Satguru then it's okay? Its time for you to go back to grade school of Sikhi.

I'm not arguing about shoes etc, but we'd all do well to remember that God is all pervading in Nirgun Saroop(Nothing/ No image) so to never do anything bad/ think bad thoughts(silence the mind with naam ie. attuning oneself to his frequency of Truth).

This is the true, most beautiful slavery- living free from maya and being nothing but a slave at his feet 24/7(by His Grace) regardless of the different images he takes on around us(all images being false as it is just all him in nirgun saroop).

God says his slaves are pure and remember him always- we should all make efforts to live up to this including eradication of the mind, and let the Actual Khalsa(the 100% pure ones with a silenced mind, living in truth 24/7) add a few more members to it.

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I'm not arguing about shoes etc, but we'd all do well to remember that God is all pervading in Nirgun Saroop(Nothing/ No image) so to never do anything bad/ think bad thoughts(silence the mind with naam ie. attuning oneself to his frequency of Truth).

You have not even written here in this topic for me to argue against. I wrote a response to a member named mohinder pal. I agree with not doing anything bad any where. Mohinder pal is putting words in my mouth here, which i have never said.

This is the true, most beautiful slavery- living free from maya and being nothing but a slave at his feet 24/7(by His Grace) regardless of the different images he takes on around us(all images being false as it is just all him in nirgun saroop).

Sargun Saroop is not an image. It is Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. To call Sargun Saroop (Shabad Guru) anyless is going against Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. Plus this is not a discussion on Sargun and Nirgun Saroop. Mohinder pal has attacked me to justify a sect leaders actions here. Ask yourself does Gurmat allow idol worship in the presence of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj? If not, then how come idol worship is allowed in the Nirgun Saroop of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj (or are Mandirs of Hindu not part of Nirgun Saroop), when according to your writing that Sargun is just an image and nirgun is the actual true form. Why did Gurmat give more respect to the Sargun Saroop (Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj) than Nirgun Saroop? By your statement the Gursikhs should got to every mandir and break all the stones as this is a disrespect to Nirgun Saroop of Maharaj (Gurmat says no idol worship allowed in the presence of Maharaj. You say Maharaj is everywhere.).

God says his slaves are pure and remember him always- we should all make efforts to live up to this including eradication of the mind, and let the Actual Khalsa(the 100% pure ones with a silenced mind, living in truth 24/7) add a few more members to it.

The actual Khalsa (Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa) said Sargun Saroop (Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj) is not a false image, but Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj himself.

We are lacking who can't see Maharaj in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj and then take the side of a sect leader over Gurmat.

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The actions in the video are distasteful, wrong, and unacceptable in mainstream gurmat traditions relating to personal behavioral etiqutte in a gurudwara, plain and simple. If anybody who has sold his soul to a namdharee or neeldharee 'guru' or 'sant', teachings and philosophy, believes these actions are right, then such a person needs to get out of this site and go defend these actions on some namdharee/neeldharee website, not here! This website exists to further accepted mainstream views of Sikhism and gurmat and explain them to all visitors, members and guests. Do not try using nirgun/sargun concepts of God to defend any such actions. This section has been set up to alert people of beadbi from the point of view of mainstream panthic maryada at both personal and sangat level, , and must not be used by people from cults to defend any actions of their cults which are unwelcome in mainstream Sikhism .

When we say God is nirgun, we mean God in his 'sva' form i.e a pure state of aloneness without attributes, qualities and descriptions. When we say God is sargun, we now enter the realm of describing the qualities of Him who is 'sva' or by Himself. Hence the two are one, though appearing to be two! When we say God is omnipresent and sees everything, actually we are saying He who is all by Himself(nirgun) is omnipresent(sargun). Hence you cannot justify sin by leaning to one of these seemingly two different 'states' of God. We wear slippers outside a gurudwara, not inside. This does not mean in a simplistic manner that sargun God manifested in SGGS disallows slippers in His presence in a gurudwara but then allows them in his nirgun saroop anywhere inside and outside, or just outside a gurudwara ! This is utterly nonsensical from a theological point of view! First of all, the moment you use the word 'saroop, you are stumbling into the realm of sargun-ness of God. Nirgun is nirgun, and saroop gets discounted. God who is both nirgun and sargun at the same time, expects us to naturally get our shoes off before entering a Gurudwara for more reasons that I can count here! However the same God allows us to wear shoes to work and school , again for more reasons than I can count here. Hence the wearing and not wearing of shoes has got nothing to do with the sargun , nirgun aspects of God, but rather to, what is more relevant, where.

Following from that , we cannot say that a)it is somehow better if someone danced before Gurujee rather than in his bedroom, or, b) that since God is both nirgun and sargun , hence it doesnt really matter where we dance, and dancing is acceptable anywhere! As I just explained earlier, the whole philosophy of mainstream Sikhism rationalises that it is better to show outward physical restraint in a gurudwara as per etiqutte. This does not imply that dancing is a sin, but rather that everything has its own appropiate time and relevant place. You may be a loud, emotional, physically expressive person with an intense personality and that is not necessarily wrong but there are places where you need to exercise restraint from such behavioral traits, and places where you can let go.

Hence it is theologically wrong and dangerous to try to use the nirgun and sargun concepts of God to justify in any manner, that ,which constitutes religious sacrilege in the name of Sikhism, and only betrays a person's lack of true understanding of Sikhism and the rational behind panthic maryada relating to communal behaviour.

The fact that the guy on the video called 'pipli wale' some misled neeldharees regard as a 'sant' is condoning this, only further establishes the fact that he is a spiritual fake. As I have said before the neeldharees are like the unneeded suckers off the main branch of a tree only diverting energy away and becoming a distraction. Their previous leader i.e kilewale's body lies buried instead of being cremated, and another guy called 'sambhi wale' claims he is the reincarnation of that kile wale, and is hence directly pitted against the pipli wale, both fighting to gain the disciples of another challenger to the gaddi of kilewale who is now dead too i.e jheel wale. That's less than half the story told but I will end it there for the time being, but not before alerting you that it is an open secret among neeldharees that their supposed saints are seriously considered to be latter day incarnations of Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj, which immediately puts them at odds with the other sucker offshoot called namdharees, who claim the same of their present day 'satgurus'!.

My advice is simple to Sikh youths- take amrit/khande ka pahul from authentic mainstream panj pyareh, and stick close to mainstream Sikhism and you will not be dissapointed or misled.

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I'm not arguing about shoes etc, but we'd all do well to remember that God is all pervading in Nirgun Saroop(Nothing/ No image) so to never do anything bad/ think bad thoughts(silence the mind with naam ie. attuning oneself to his frequency of Truth).

This is the true, most beautiful slavery- living free from maya and being nothing but a slave at his feet 24/7(by His Grace) regardless of the different images he takes on around us(all images being false as it is just all him in nirgun saroop).

God says his slaves are pure and remember him always- we should all make efforts to live up to this including eradication of the mind, and let the Actual Khalsa(the 100% pure ones with a silenced mind, living in truth 24/7) add a few more members to it.

Slavery to god is 24/7, not stepping in a Gurdwarra and acting one way and indulging in maya once we step outside. Yes sargun and nirgun are one and the same, however god has many faces through the khel, One who is everything, the slanderer, the saint, the gurmukh, the manmukh, the reality is that we are all just an amalgamtion of each other, pleasure and pain, light and dark, heaven and hell- we are the balance/nothing/truth/god himself. We are all god(Nothing, no image, no nothing, but the greatest nasha and treasure), we just don't acknowledge it 24/7 and we do not apply this truth to our lives.

Taking shoes off, covering the head for a gurmukh is not a ritual act, as Truth is not confined to rituals..when a gurmukh steps into the gurwarra nobody need lay down any rules saying don't wear shoes.

Everybody likes to quote the story of Satguru Nanak Ji's visit to mecca and how when his feet turned, so did the kaaba, but nobody likes to take the gyan of this story and apply it.

If a gurmukh takes shoes off as a sign of love respect, because of a feeling that god is telling them they should(all hukam) then they will do so- they will understand the meaning behind the act, remembering every moment that their beautiful lord is all pervading even in the greatest sinner, the peadophile, the rapist, the serial killer, the toilet, the temple, this is the message that Babaji in form wished to portray.

Nothing in this khel is real, that is what we're here to discover, this is the only treasure- the gurdwarra is a false place in the khel. But it's imagery is there as a place(false) for the sinners(us) to relax and apply the truth, (so it is respected) and discover that it along with everything else is nothing. Once we understand this, we begin to live in hukam 24/7- going to the gurdwarra is simply hukam, all his own will, if we encounter a sick person on the way and need to take them to a and e, its also hukam, we live in truth on the way and in the hospital, (truth never changes, our state remains balanced) and if we're killed inside, thats also hukam(we live truth then also)- it is all a learning experience and a test of fearlessness and true love and acceptance, life is one great game we have been put in to discover truth and to live it in every single scenario we're placed in(the unbreakable state of truth, the real chardi kala), to recognise every darshan we're given as him whether its an angel or a demon- that is the sole reason we are here.

Our gurus clearly stated that heaven and hell, pleasure and pain is exactly one and the same to the gurmukh- hence the state of mind of the gurus did not change in their experience of either one. Pain is seen as a great blessing to the gurmukh- All here is temporary and the greater the pain, the greater the detachment from the false. A thathi tavi was embraced by our beloved Guru ji, it was not just accepted, it was embraced. He is all pervading, he is the gurdwarra he is the thathi tavi, he is the torturer, the cross, he is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, he is satan.

When one understands this and applies this gyan to their lives and quits the attachment to the false rituals and arguments(ego/ all sense of I, mine, and self is totally false), one is able to move forward with bhagti, regardless of their surroundings, or what happens to them(all hukam/his will)- there is nothing to hold them back physically or mentally- they will see themselves in everyone and everything and realise that they actually Are the entire creation and all else, they are no different to anyone else- That their sole purpose is to live(apply) this truth themselves 24/7 and to serve it to others. This is when the khalsa will rise, when nirvair and nirboah is truly applied.

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Slavery to god is 24/7, not stepping in a Gurdwarra and acting one way and indulging in maya once we step outside. Yes sargun and nirgun are one and the same, however god has many faces through the khel, One who is everything, the slanderer, the saint, the gurmukh, the manmukh, the reality is that we are all just an amalgamtion of each other, pleasure and pain, light and dark, heaven and hell- we are the balance/nothing/truth/god himself. We are all god(Nothing, no image, no nothing, but the greatest nasha and treasure), we just don't acknowledge it 24/7 and we do not apply this truth to our lives. Taking shoes off, covering the head for a gurmukh is not a ritual act, as Truth is not confined to rituals..when a gurmukh steps into the gurwarra nobody need lay down any rules saying don't wear shoes. Everybody likes to quote the story of Satguru Nanak Ji's visit to mecca and how when his feet turned, so did the kaaba, but nobody likes to take the gyan of this story and apply it. If a gurmukh takes shoes off as a sign of love respect, because of a feeling that god is telling them they should(all hukam) then they will do so- they will understand the meaning behind the act, remembering every moment that their beautiful lord is all pervading even in the greatest sinner, the peadophile, the rapist, the serial killer, the toilet, the temple, this is the message that Babaji in form wished to portray. Nothing in this khel is real, that is what we're here to discover, this is the only treasure- the gurdwarra is a false place in the khel. But it's imagery is there as a place(false) for the sinners(us) to relax and apply the truth, (so it is respected) and discover that it along with everything else is nothing. Once we understand this, we begin to live in hukam 24/7- going to the gurdwarra is simply hukam, all his own will, if we encounter a sick person on the way and need to take them to a and e, its also hukam, we live in truth on the way and in the hospital, (truth never changes, our state remains balanced) and if we're killed inside, thats also hukam(we live truth then also)- it is all a learning experience and a test of fearlessness and true love and acceptance, life is one great game we have been put in to discover truth and to live it in every single scenario we're placed in(the unbreakable state of truth, the real chardi kala), to recognise every darshan we're given as him whether its an angel or a demon- that is the sole reason we are here. Our gurus clearly stated that heaven and hell, pleasure and pain is exactly one and the same to the gurmukh- hence the state of mind of the gurus did not change in their experience of either one. Pain is seen as a great blessing to the gurmukh- All here is temporary and the greater the pain, the greater the detachment from the false. A thathi tavi was embraced by our beloved Guru ji, it was not just accepted, it was embraced. He is all pervading, he is the gurdwarra he is the thathi tavi, he is the torturer, the cross, he is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, he is satan. When one understands this and applies this gyan to their lives and quits the attachment to the false rituals and arguments(ego/ all sense of I, mine, and self is totally false), one is able to move forward with bhagti, regardless of their surroundings, or what happens to them(all hukam/his will)- there is nothing to hold them back physically or mentally- they will see themselves in everyone and everything and realise that they actually Are the entire creation and all else, they are no different to anyone else- That their sole purpose is to live(apply) this truth themselves 24/7 and to serve it to others. This is when the khalsa will rise, when nirvair and nirboah is truly applied.

!!!!! I do not understand the need for this romanticist, theologically faulty, and hot potch preach on the omnipresence of God and how everything is ultimately His game when the issue at hand which this thread is about is the videos showing a whole amount of neeldharee people dancing and clapping in the presence of Shree Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj which constitues an utterly serious beadbi for which people need to be questioned, warned, disciplined, and cautioned!!!!!

As I have said before, people need to come clean whether they are a hidden neeldharees on this forum looking for ways of defending the actions of their leaders and cult. This is a mainstream Sikh youth forum! not a place for sympathisers and followers of any cults offshooting from Sikhism for whatever purposes.

The discussion on this thread should be to;

a)warn people who are interested in mainstream Sikhism to stay well clear of any involvement with such cults.

b)to discuss ways and means so there is no further repeat of such incidences.

c) to discuss ways of bringing these issue to the highest authority so such people can be reprimanded and banned from having the presence of SSGS in their meetings.

d)to help their followers who have been misled to choose between such cults and mainstream Sikhism.

e)to make the Sikh jagat aware of such cults so people can stay clear of them.

f) summon the leaders of such cults to renounce these cults, disband and enter the fold of mainstream Sikhism, or be declared as heretics and non Sikhs.

As for the issue of the omnipresence of God and how everything is God’s game, that is a discussion that is better suited in the section to do with Sikh philosophy etc not here. However, I will answer you briefly on this. You need to read or reread? the Zafarnama of Dil-e-Muhabat Shree Guru Gobind Singh apart from Gurbani to understand that as humans we do have to take responsibility for our actions, and that we cannot let the idea of God’s game as being unreal, or transient, or that God resides in all, as excuses to gloss over, trivialise, or absolve ourselves of human error, sin and karmic existence.

Creation is not a fig of anyone’s imagination! Rather creation and all in it, is God’s construct with its limited spatial and time boundary. Our actions DO carry consequences and in the words of dhan dhan, tisre patshah, Shree Guru Amardas pyare maharaj, in beautiful Sri Rag, ‘lekh chaurasee pher peia, kamnh dujeh bhae’’towards the ending of ang 31, SGGS, i.e because of another’s love, the bride goes round in the circuit of eightyfour lakhs of lives.’’ This is what has to bother and concern us in relation to our conduct as gurmukhs rather than manmukhs ! and is usually a, or, the, key instigation, in making someone decide to be a spirit born and spirit led gurmukh.

SGGS starts with Ik Oangkar, indeed, to immediately state that God is the Omnipresent Reality. However within the space of seven more words to describe God, Gurujee quickly expresses that God is attainable through Guruprasad and by the end of the first Japjee pauri, our attention is drawn to the need to live in the hukum of God, and so on. Hence you can see that there is an urgency to make a choice, and live an affirmative life of responsibility and transparency in order to live within God’s grace.None of these facts are unreal. God is infinite and we are finite but within our limited finite existence, we see, touch , feel , hear and smell in a very real way and we exist in the matrix, driven by our karma. Gurbani allows no one to excuse and perpetuate their manmukh existence by claiming their present condition is a link in a karmic chain for which God and not they, are responsible. This is Hinduistic teaching not Sikh!

Gurbani, instead, is cosmic and universal, urging anyone and everyone to surrender to Gurujee, and receive and live by Gurprasad and see this as to be living in Akal Purukh’s hukum. Gurbani issues a universal warning to each person in this world of the consequences of being a manmatia, and urges everyone to realise, that, in this one lifetime, they need to take responsibility for their actions and will not be excused if they don’t! This is Sikhi! And Sikhi teaching!

Now to your other point of pain and pleasure! The Gurvaak ‘’dukh sukh dono sam kar janeh’ of Gurbani is not implying that at some heightened mystical state these will both ‘feel’ the same! This negates tat gurmat philosophy, belittles God’s Supreme Desire for different states of feelings to exist, and for us to be able to experience the richness in variety of these states as part of our precious physical and human existence, and as part of our praise of the greatness of God. The similarity of dukh and sukh within the context of the big jigsaw puzzle of gurmat philosophy put together, is part of Gurbani’s explanation of the realm of karma within creation, whereby, a Gurmukh sees these two as the same because the both are the wheels that give motion to, and drive the chariot of karma, in the many reincarnations of a soul.

There is a lot more you have said about pain, about 24/7 slavery to God, about interpreting Gurujee’s martyrdom, about heaven and hell , about God being satan and the cross, about rituals, about Gurujee’s visit to Mecca and what should be the right gyan taken from that, and that we are all God, etc, etc etc, that needs very very serious correction because your understanding is faulty but that would take me many more hours of typing, and make this a very long post. I say this in humbleness, because my main concern is that this website exists to further mainstream Sikh teachings. However if there are many requests, I will humbly endeavour to explain at great length what all these terms mean and imply in accepted gurmat philosophy.

What helps anyone to get a good sound grasp of the many different concepts within Gurbani, and what they really mean, as well as their interrelationships is to make, as part of your daily Gurmukh lifestyle, a lifetime habit of reading a)a continous reading of SGGS and SDGGS with viakhiya labouring over every word, every sentence, doing cross comparisons, reading not just explanations but expositions, b) a lot of ardas to Gurujee to reveal to you His eternal truths that are hidden in Gurbani, sometimes not apparent on first read, and having a little library at home with Bhai Gurdas works, Bhai Nand Lals works, Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh’s works, Professor Sahib Singh’s works, etc etc. Make it a hobby to pop in regularly into a shop that sells mainstream Sikh books or online places etc.So you are exposing yourselve s to various perspectives on Gurmat, Gur ithiyaas, etc. This is a rather enjoyable thing to do and in fact compulsory if you are very earnest. It sharpens you up so you can see through anyone’s words easily for the real truth they contain.

Llving by Guru’s truth is absolutely and insanely exciting, fascinating, tantalising and appetising!

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We are not Judges here to or lawyers to judge others and issue summons. We should be more concerned about ourselves rather than passing judgement on others.

SGGSJi is the judge and lawyer; He alone has the right to judge Neeldharis/and other Dharis and Us also. We donot even know that In the eyes of satguru, Who is right and who is wrong.

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