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Q&A With Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal Wale


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I think and also I could be wrong but satguru ji is talking about him and vahiguru having no difference in terms of nirgun form. Technically nirgun samadhi can not be defined in words as it is sachkand, it is not perceivable or conceivable. Many try to describe it but fall short as there is no form, shabad and it has no duality.

From listening to sant Jagjit singh's katha he also clarifies what you asked that one will not go to hell if they call him vahiguru by not seeing his sargun body but seeing his nirgun saroop. (but the problem is to see maharaj's nirgun saroop you must be without ego yourself).

Sant jagjit singh also further elaborates in the katha that krishan bhgawan, narsingh, Guru Nanak Dev ji etc are all the same in terms of them being the same nirgun form. But in terms of sargun saroop they are different. One who's dristi is only tuned in sargun will only see name, form, he, I etc.

I also believe that sikhi follows an advait approach in saying that everything is vahiguru and 'you' or 'he' or 'she' was a illusion created by 'I'. In reality there was never a you but only pure nirvakalap samadi. Our aim by doing gurshabad abiyaas is to realise this.

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Moderators please allow this post as I believe this tidbit is beneficial to sangat to ensure they keep to their Sikhee roots and not follow the self proclaimed and styled people that run out to the We

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! I've only ever heard them (and Sant Isher Singh Ji Rarewale, who were also mentioned) say that Krishan Ji was a 16 Kala Avtaar and that Guru Sahib, was sa

1. Our Sukhsam sirar ( 2nd astral layer of body) is it jarr(void/cannot give energy on its own to itself) or chaitan (supported by atma) ? - Sant ji said, sukhsam sirar is also jarr along with panj t

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I think and also I could be wrong but satguru ji is talking about him and vahiguru having no difference in terms of nirgun form. Technically nirgun samadhi can not be defined in words as it is sachkand, it is not perceivable or conceivable. Many try to describe it but fall short as there is no form, shabad and it has no duality.

From listening to sant Jagjit singh's katha he also clarifies what you asked that one will not go to hell if they call him vahiguru by not seeing his sargun body but seeing his nirgun saroop. (but the problem is to see maharaj's nirgun saroop you must be without ego yourself).

Gurbani says that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj and rest of the Gurus were Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj in Sargun Saroop along with Nirgun Saroop. Also if Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj was warning us of not worshipping him (like the followers of Krishna) then Bhai Gurdas ji's vaar would be in question and Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj would not have accepted them and called them the key to Gurbani. For example wouldn't Bhai Gurdas ji go to hell for saying the following:

gur Arjn ivthu kurbwxI ]23]

gur arajan vittahu kurabaanee ||23||

I am sacrifice unto Guru Arjan Dev.(23)

So in this sense, I think Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj is saying something else when he says don't call me god, if you do you will go to hell. I think it has to do more with people trying to separate Satguru from God and then worshipping him as the Lord of all.

Also this vaar of Bhai Gurdas ji would not be accepted if the Sargun Saroop of Satguru was not the Lord himself and can't be worshipped.

hirgoibMd gur Arjnhu guru goibMd nwau sdvwieAw]

harigobi(n)dh gur arajanahu gur gobi(n)dh naao sadhavaaeiaa||

Being created by Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind made himself famous as the form of the Lord.

When in Gurbani or Gurmukhs writes of the Gurus, they never refer to the Gurus as just another form of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. It's always THE form of Maharaj and not A form of Maharaj.

Sant jagjit singh also further elaborates in the katha that krishan bhgawan, narsingh, Guru Nanak Dev ji etc are all the same in terms of them being the same nirgun form. But in terms of sargun saroop they are different. One who's dristi is only tuned in sargun will only see name, form, he, I etc.

I think you would say otherwise, after reading the above Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars. Satguru only has one nirgun saroop, which is the same nirgun saroop as Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Isn't the nirgun Saroop of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj the one form that Sri Mool Mantar Sahib da paat tells us about and there is no separate nirgun saroop?

I also believe that sikhi follows an advait approach in saying that everything is vahiguru and 'you' or 'he' or 'she' was a illusion created by 'I'. In reality there was never a you but only pure nirvakalap samadi. Our aim by doing gurshabad abiyaas is to realise this.

Yes, everything is Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj, but then SIkhi goes further and says the creation holds this status temporarly and not permanently. The creation is a form of Maharaj, but not thee form of Maharaj that is permanent like him and like the Gurus.

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This is the pankti to which i was pointing to when i said Gurbani says Satguru is Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj in Sargun Saroop and Nirgun Saroop.

This Shabad is by Bhatt Sathaa & Balvand in Raag Raamkalee on Pannaa 968

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiexu Awpy hoAw ] chaarae jaagae chahu jugee pa(n)chaaein aapae hoaa || The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form.

The full shabad can give a better understanding how Gurbani proclaims Guru Sahib is both saroops

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I think i just came across something interesting, while searching through some threads here on Krishna. One Singh, Kam, has provided the shabad where Gurbani says different avatars have came here and under the command of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj, removed evil in the first three ages, but then Satguru came down in the last age. But in the above post of mine, Gurbani says the Gurus (Satguru) enlightened the four ages, meaning they enlightened all of them. Just by looking at this, Krishna played an important role in uplifting evil from this world by Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj command, but was unable to to escape Kal, as Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj tell us. Just like Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj came down to save Prahlaad, Krishna to the best of my knowledge was sent in the same way, but Kal took over. Here is the shabad, that Kam Singh provided in a different thread. Look at this below shabad and the above shabad which is in my post.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed the demon Kans by pulling him from his hair.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sRI gurU rwju Aibclu Atlu Awid puriK PurmwieE ]7] sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

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Krishna is one of 24 avtars of vishnu, Akaal purkh can create many avtars as he wants as if they were worms. However Vishnu was created by God out of God's power and so some say Vishnu (and his avtars) are equal to God. This is my opinion of what Sant Harkovalvale are saying.

Its a difficult topic - the sakhi of Sri Guru Gobind Singh once turning there form into that of Sri Ram comes to mind.

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So does he think that only the Hindu Avtars are 'Waheguru' what about Mohammed Sahib, Jesus Sahib, Buddha Sahib?

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According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, Krishan is himself busy taking births, how can he save the world.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=559

bRhmY byd bwxI prgwsI mwieAw moh pswrw ] brehamai baedh baanee paragaasee maaeiaa moh pasaaraa || Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, but the love of Maya spread. mhwdyau igAwnI vrqY Gir AwpxY qwmsu bhuqu AhMkwrw ]2] mehaadhaeo giaanee varathai ghar aapanai thaamas bahuth aha(n)kaaraa ||2|| The wise one, Shiva, remains absorbed in himself, but he is engrossed in dark passions and excessive egotism. ||2|| iksnu sdw AvqwrI rUDw ikqu lig qrY sMswrw ] kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sa(n)saaraa || Vishnu is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?

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We can talk about avtarhood and their roles in Sikhism until cows get home, there are plenty of dedicated topics both on sikhawareness/sikhsangat provides much more insight on this topic...i suggest you reply to those topics so all the discussion is under proper context...making it much more easier to understand complexity of the topic..so coming back to this topic on hand, lets also focus deep discussion of atma, paratma, antish karan, karam which were also discussed in greater detail in question and answers...to be honest, i find the latter much more fascinating as it has to do with everyone's inner self. Whilst, it's good to have understanding of avtarhood and their roles in sikhism to understand theology of sikhism but being totally infused in this topic to the point that one intends to fail to look at bigger picture of one self. At the end of day, avtars (regardless of what you think about them) already came and transcendent back to its source, it's our turn now... what matter at this point is your inner journey, i hate to see sikhs still discussing this or pondering about the topic of avtarhood and their roles in sikhism to the point until their one leg is in this world and other leg is in the grave..that's my personal take on it.. i have discussed the topic of roles of avtarhood and their roles in Sikhism from every angle until my brain frooze (check archives of sikhsangat/sikhawareness) ...i have given up...now i just look at the exploring one's self.

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Bani of SGGS and Dasam Granth sahibs do not acknowledge Krishna as an avtar

of God. Asa ki vaar is clear on this.

It will be nice if original poster posts video or audio of Sant ji here where he says so.

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Boy you guys are so stupid, you can't even see who your father is. That's why we don't have Khalsa raj....I suggest you listen to a really Sants katha Sant Jarnail Singh jee, dasam katha who teaches gurmat and not some snatan mat.....wake up and become GURUS KHALSA again!

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Boy you guys are so stupid, you can't even see who your father is. That's why we don't have Khalsa raj....I suggest you listen to a really Sants katha Sant Jarnail Singh jee, dasam katha who teaches gurmat and not some snatan mat.....wake up and become GURUS KHALSA again!

Penji that is a really stupid thing to say as baba ji comes from nirmalay samparda just like Sant baba Bishan Singh ji of Taksaal.

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Boy you guys are so stupid, you can't even see who your father is. That's why we don't have Khalsa raj....I suggest you listen to a really Sants katha Sant Jarnail Singh jee, dasam katha who teaches gurmat and not some snatan mat.....wake up and become GURUS KHALSA again!

very off topic remark, clearly out of context. Guru Sahib talks about Krishna (and others) countless times, so why can't we discuss what role he has to play. This is not some sanatan mat, but I agree with the rest of what you are saying.

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