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Bbc Asian Network Debate - Kirpan At The Olympics


VanHelsingh
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I'm busy so I'll keep this brief.

Basically a debate on whether the Olympic association is right to allow amritdhari Sikhs to wear the Kirpan at the Olympics. I expected ignorance from non-Sikhs contributing to the discussion but Sikhs (I'm guessing monay) who don't get on with amritdharis have been phoning in and egging-on the debate.

What a sorry state of affairs and I really must say "Sikhs" in the UK are an absolute joke and a disgrace. Muslims defend other Muslims, Hindus defend other Hindus, yet when it comes to Sikhs standing together we have fellow Sikhs taking out their personal grievances against amritdharis as a form of point scoring.

Also any Sikh who defends a Muslim's right to wear a burkha, etc., need to get their heads out of their backsides. Muslims will never defend our right to wear the kirpan - or respect any other faith's religious traditions - and this afternoon's debate had many Muslims phoning up eager to add their toxic views to the discussion. I may think differently once the red mist has cleared but at the moment I'm not happy.

I phoned in and was promised I'd have a chance to speak but didn't get a chance to get on-air.

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It's always the same story. If you actually pay attention you'd find many Muslims [not the same idiotic, uneducated chavvy ones that listen to the the Asian Network and phone in] support Sikhs, Christians on such matters. Also, the idiots that ring up can make a song and dance all they like, the fact is Sikhs ARE going to be allowed to wear the Kakkar regardless of what they say!

Also those so called Sikhs who are against it are not Sikhs but cretinous Hindus!

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Missed it...Didn't any Sikh think tanks like Sikh Council UK, Sikh Federation Uk or other reps present themselves in the discussions?

We keep falling flat on our faces when it comes to media representation. We're still a bunch of pendus who lack artculate representation. I would suspect the researchers in BBC AN would ring up the main Sikh bodies in the UK in advance of the show being aired, we need to have a network of reps who are able to express the Sikh perspective every time these shows are aired. This is something that can sit under SCUK's umbrella or the succession wing of the geriatric jathebhandis , but it's still not happening...

So we're still getting out asses kicked in the media! We need a dedicated mediawatch wing set up asap, otherwise we'll just keep looking foolish.

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I agree with veer 'kaljugi', it is most disappointing that these so-called 'Sikhs' phone in and say it is wrong for Sikh to wear kirpan and those that do are backwards, fundamentalists and whatnot. I guarantee that there fathers and especially their grandfathers all wore dastar, were kesdhari and probably amritdhari as well.

However I 100% disagree with kaljugi with comments on Muslims and right to wear burkha. Even if muslims phoned in to attack kirpan I would still defend the right of any person to practice their religion. Personally I have respect for my muslim sisters who wear burkha. I do not understand this islamaphobia amongst Sikhs. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Sahib sri Guru Tegh Bahadur ji have his life so that kashmiri Pandits could wear the janeu (holy thread) even though Gurmat is against the janeu. Dhan! Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib ji!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Missed it...Didn't any Sikh think tanks like Sikh Council UK, Sikh Federation Uk or other reps present themselves in the discussions?

We keep falling flat on our faces when it comes to media representation. We're still a bunch of pendus who lack artculate representation. I would suspect the researchers in BBC AN would ring up the main Sikh bodies in the UK in advance of the show being aired, we need to have a network of reps who are able to express the Sikh perspective every time these shows are aired. This is something that can sit under SCUK's umbrella or the succession wing of the geriatric jathebhandis , but it's still not happening...

So we're still getting out asses kicked in the media! We need a dedicated mediawatch wing set up asap, otherwise we'll just keep looking foolish.

Just for the record the Sikh Federation (UK) were not approached by the BBC Asian Network on this issue, despite knowing of our involvement in this issue from the outset and a press release that went to them on Sunday as soon as the first story broke. Someone did ring to alert me that a debate was taking place, but I was just going into a meeting so it was too late to take appropriate action.

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Well as it happens, the Sikh council has already had negotiations with the olympic organisers and things are not looking so bad. However, whenever there is a clash between human rights/freedom of religious practice etc versus health and safety legislation... then health and safety legislation will always win unfortunately. Because objectively, no other community is going to have sympathy to an object that they deem to be dangerous.

Bottom line is that human rights/freedom of religious practice versus health and safety legislation... health and safety always win in the eyes of a neutral and objective audience.

This is where we need to raise our game a little bit. Frankly, a lot Singhs are pretty thick when it comes to their kirpans and understanding what they can and cannot do with it. Many Sikh youth still think its ok to walk around with 12 inch kirpans on the outside in public non-sikh areas at work and at large events.

Not only this, many Sikh youth have done and think that is perfectly ok to use the kakkar as an offensive weapon. In fact, I have heard first hand from Singhs who were negotiating with the olympic commitee that they themselves had come pre prepared to the meeting with newspaper cuttings and other evidence from the news where Sikhs had used the kakkar as a weapon in both UK and Canada, negating the argument that it is not a weapon, but a religious symbol (which is the only acceptable argument for the carriage of a kirpan in the eyes of a neutral and objective audience).

It also does not help when you get individuals like that Singh prison guard who tried to take the prison service to court for not allowing him to wear the kirpan to work. Because, they ruled against him (health and safety always wins over human rights) in the employment tribunal. This has sent a dangerous precedent in modern legislation because the tribunal also ruled that less than 10% of Sikhs are amrithdari kirpan wearers, therefore it cannot be classed as discrimination!!?

So you see, we really need to tone down the kirpan. If we are gonna wear it, we need to wear it responsibly, and discretely under the clothes. Where there is a perceived clash with health and safety ie a dangerous job or a big public event, then really we either just need to take it off, or if we want to keep it on then we should not take up the job or enter the event.. simple as that. It is a very dangerous game to try and fight this battle on a human rights level... we will lose this battle, and legislation will be taken against the kirpan, unlike in the present situation where there is no legislation against it as such.

Also, if youth keep showing off with huge kirpans and continue to use them in street fights against muslims or moneh commitee members then, this anti-kirpan legislation will only come quicker rather than later...

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The reality is that BBC Asian Network is not seriously looking to debate an issue in good faith. It wants to sensationalise issues, at the expense of Sikhs, to get people listening to its shows. Our experience shows this happening repeatedly. If they wanted proper debate, they know who to contact (i.e., Sikh Federation in this case, given that they put out the original Press Release). It just shows Nihal's bad faith when he fails to notify GurSikh organisations, but he always resort to bringing on the plonkers who continually give him the answers he knows will sensationalise the issue exactly as he wants.

In this case, we can try to phone in off our back individually but longer term, we need to liaise more effectively at a higher level in the BBC, over the head of Nihal and his producer team.

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The reality is that BBC Asian Network is not seriously looking to debate an issue in good faith. It wants to sensationalise issues, at the expense of Sikhs, to get people listening to its shows. Our experience shows this happening repeatedly. If they wanted proper debate, they know who to contact (i.e., Sikh Federation in this case, given that they put out the original Press Release). It just shows Nihal's bad faith when he fails to notify GurSikh organisations, but he always resort to bringing on the plonkers who continually give him the answers he knows will sensationalise the issue exactly as he wants.

In this case, we can try to phone in off our back individually but longer term, we need to liaise more effectively at a higher level in the BBC, over the head of Nihal and his producer team.

They had a young Gursikh teacher who basically had to defend Sikh's right to wear even a blunted kirpan at the Olympics. The poor girl did the best she could. She was well spoken, calm and did not give-in to provocation.

They also had a gentleman from some UK-based Sikh organisation. I can't remember exactly what the name of the organisation he was representing but it had something like "awareness" in the title. This guy comes on the radio and completely misjudges the situation and puts himself in opposition to the poor Gursikh girl who was doing really well up until that point. It was a total 'D'oh!' moment.

Singh Ji was being very blunt and although I agreed with his core argument about "no compromise" he could've phrased his points a lot better. It was a very coarse approach to the situation and like a few posters above me have mentioned we need a lot more media-savvy people in preparation for these kind of situations. A person can be clever in the way they answer any questions posed without compromising our core beliefs. Its a skill that very few Sikhs in those positions possess (not that I'm an expert in this field).

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Our experience shows this happening repeatedly. If they wanted proper debate, they know who to contact (i.e., Sikh Federation in this case, given that they put out the original Press Release). It just shows Nihal's bad faith when he fails to notify GurSikh organisations, but he always resort to bringing on the plonkers who continually give him the answers he knows will sensationalise the issue exactly as he wants.

Beat them at their own game! We know the tricks so why are we still ineffective?

We know that BBC AN issue their programme listing by at least 9am on the same day for Nihal’s show, if not the previous day. If a dedicated Sikh media watch team is set up then it can ensure strong Gursikh voices are ready to participate in any Sikh related discussion regardless of the short notice and regardless of an official invitation or not. This is an overdue sewa that SCUK must show they are establishing in order to enhance the Sikh media profile, which as we can see is still poor.

The lame excuses we have of our non-participation in defending the Sikh image on the media is now totally unjustifiable. It simply boils down to the non-proactive approach we have all comfortably established over the last 25 years. A Google search of "Sikh" news items over the last 2-3 days clearly showed this as a hot topic, yet the derogatory readers’ comments in the Daily Mail and Telegraph, comparing us to Zulus and Cowboys, have just been ignored and not countered by many individual Sikhs or main Sikh Organisations. If the Jathebhandi's aren't up for it, then we individual Sikhs should be mentally ready to participate in these media debates (no doubt there are more to come on this issue). Otherwise we can sit on our tods and keep watching the incorrect portrayal of Sikhs.

If anyone knows of any other media discussion shows, then at the very least post it on sikhsangat.com. As individuals, we can attempt to start mitigating the misconceptions by participating in the discussions. Snap out of the false sense of security that the "official" jathebhandis' are geared up for the challenge, if they were then they would have developed an effective relationship with the BBC/mainstream media by now.

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we are so thick

nihal was actually favouring the blunted kirpan arguement. people like randeep need to realise that the world doesnt care about what the kirpan means. we have to use our brains. I would happy tell the world i wear a blunted kirapn, and its ceremonial etc etc. at the end of the day the kirpan in this country is a privalage not a right , check the law it can be easily be taken away.

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