Mma (Mixed Martial Arts)

[pedrorizzo]

I find it very interesting that everyone on this forum seems to be a martial arts expert,

“”Niddar Singh has deliberately tried to make a distinction between Shastar vidya and gatka. However, the rest of the world, including Nihang Dals, use the words interchangably and do not see the two as two separate things. There is no record of it whatsoever, and it has not been preserved anywhere else. Curiously though, Niddar's martial arts look rather suspiciously like the Escrima and Kali techinques that he used to learn in Wolverhampton before he grew his hair and appeared on the scene as the only existing Gurdev of a secret and ancient martial art that noone has heard of..... hmmm””

I have been a student of Kali (stick fighting ) for 5 years and there is no relation to Kali and SV. The foot work is completely different, when studying KALI, we work on the emphasis of a triangle 3 point foot work (the placing of your feet), there is no evidence of this within SV, they seem to have a advanced level of foot work and emphasis are based on more than 3 points. Having read other martial arts forums, many martial arts experts respect Niddar Singh and his art. Identifying the art as not mixed with any other martial art but a unique art. Why is it only on Sikh forums I read that Niddar has mixed it with other arts, when many making the statement have no knowledge of any martial arts or have very limited knowledge.

Many are quick to make this statement but will not explain how they have come to this conclusion. So pedrorizzo, can you please explain how you concluded the above statement?

Well you are correct in pointing out that I have an extensive background in martial arts. However, I dont have a background in Filipino martial arts.

My comments about Niddar's martial arts come from Master Richard Hudson http://www.kick-fit.co.uk/about_us.htm, whom I showed Niddar's training clips from his website several years ago and those where his opinions. Given his extensive experience in Escrima, I was more inclined to believe him over Niddar's dodgey claims that he is reviving old Sikh martial arts without any kind of reference, especially when coupled with his stance on Sanatan Sikhism, it is clear that he has appeared on the scene with a certain agenda that actually has little to do with martial arts in the first place, and more to do with spreading his cultish religious views, using martial arts to lure people in .

There is no evidence to suggest the existence of Shastar vidya apart from Niddar's own claims. His references to old Sikh texts such as Suraj Prakash and Panth Parkash and even to old Hindu texts are loose to say the least. Niddar has used his own creative mind, together with some knowledge from old Hindu texts and his extensive experience in Escrima, silat and Kung Fu to piece together his own martial art and call it shastar vidya. My relatives used to be his next door neighbours when he was a mona living in wolverhampton and in those days he was openly training in those martial arts as a young man in his garage and garden.

Now just because some non-Sikh martial artists have chosen to respect SV does not give it credibility. There are others whose views I have also heard who do not respect or recognise it, so where does that leave you? Some martial artists may have just acknowledged it out of humility and respect for another martial art and without giving it much thought or analysis. Others may have acknowledged it simply because the training methods are similar to their own, hence giving themselves a level of validity.

I heard Krishna Godhiana really liked it. Is that because hes a Hindu and is sympathetic to Niddar's sanatan beliefs and/or is it because the techniques are similar to his own?

Regarding your points about footwork, I noticed that Niddar actually DID use triangular footwork when he was demonstrating his pentras. Curiously though, he has withdrawn his technique videos from his website without explanation, so I cannot send you the link for it.

If you can provide evidence of the existence of shastar vidya to back up Niddar's claims, and not the loosely related nonsense that is on his website, I would be quite happy to swallow and back down on this issue

[Guru_Da_Chella]

hmm, I have to explain, the "shastar vidiya" describes the science of warfare, and is indeed made up of different ancient martiial arts from around the subcontinent. So its more arts than just one art. So it cannot be the same as gatka, which is more of a fencing art which recently is associated with sikhs, but may have other origins comparable with fencing and khutka.

[Cisco_Singh]

Might also be worth asking why these other respected martial artists also give credibility to the SV system, these guys are not your average watered down "commercial" martial artists theyre seasoned porfessionals, So what people on this thread are claiming is that all of the below seasoned martial artists are all wrong ? Why havent the Filipino martial arts schools openly come out and said SV was "fake" do you think they would raise the alarm if they suspected this ?

You might also want to listen to the audio recordings by Baba Ram Singh, former Jathedar of Akali Phoola Singh Burj under Budha Dal Jathedar Akali Baba Sahib Singh discusses. Audio recorded in September 1998. Where he discusses traditional puratan combat systems and confirms the "jhatka" methodology, while also confirming the false gatka system..

Furthermore how do you "invent" or make up an artform which specifically covers the usage of indo-persian weaponry much of which is different to that of far eastern an western weaponry both in subtle desing differences and usage ? Who are people more likely to believe ? Experinced martial artists or some randoms who make noise on forums claiming to have extensive martial arts experience.

But anyway bottom line is this, all Sikhs should learn a effective combat system which incorporates open hand and weaponry, please dont waste time with exhibitionry dancing around pointless things like Gatka. Learn something thats useful it's part of the Sant-sipahi lifestyle. What you learn is your choice.

- Tuhon Pat O Malley 8th Degree Rapid Arnis International, 6th Grade Black Belt Doce Pares Original Multi Style System & European Representative for San Miguel Eskrima, Director of Carin Doce Pares, winner of 3 World, 5 European and 32 British Arnis Kali Eskrima titles),

- GM Brian Jones and the members of the FMA British Council ,

- Shihan Marc Moor (13th Dan Bujinkan)

- Maul Mornie (silat suffian bela diri)

[pedrorizzo]

Might also be worth asking why these other respected martial artists also give credibility to the SV system, these guys are not your average watered down "commercial" martial artists theyre seasoned porfessionals, So what people on this thread are claiming is that all of the below seasoned martial artists are all wrong ? Why havent the Filipino martial arts schools openly come out and said SV was "fake" do you think they would raise the alarm if they suspected this ?

You might also want to listen to the audio recordings by Baba Ram Singh, former Jathedar of Akali Phoola Singh Burj under Budha Dal Jathedar Akali Baba Sahib Singh discusses. Audio recorded in September 1998. Where he discusses traditional puratan combat systems and confirms the "jhatka" methodology, while also confirming the false gatka system..

Furthermore how do you "invent" or make up an artform which specifically covers the usage of indo-persian weaponry much of which is different to that of far eastern an western weaponry both in subtle desing differences and usage ? Who are people more likely to believe ? Experinced martial artists or some randoms who make noise on forums claiming to have extensive martial arts experience.

But anyway bottom line is this, all Sikhs should learn a effective combat system which incorporates open hand and weaponry, please dont waste time with exhibitionry dancing around pointless things like Gatka. Learn something thats useful it's part of the Sant-sipahi lifestyle. What you learn is your choice.

- Tuhon Pat O Malley 8th Degree Rapid Arnis International, 6th Grade Black Belt Doce Pares Original Multi Style System & European Representative for San Miguel Eskrima, Director of Carin Doce Pares, winner of 3 World, 5 European and 32 British Arnis Kali Eskrima titles),

- GM Brian Jones and the members of the FMA British Council ,

- Shihan Marc Moor (13th Dan Bujinkan)

- Maul Mornie (silat suffian bela diri)

So are you telling me that the above will be willing to state that Shastar Vidya bears no resemblance to their own martial arts? Principles, footwork, angles and technique in the Phillipino martial arts can be adapted to any weapon regardless of whether it is indo-persian and regardless of whether it is an empty bottle. Please show evidence that the above martial artists endorse shastar vidya.

Regarding the radio recording, yes it would interest me to listen to it if you can provide a link to it. However, I suspect that the linkages between what he talks about and the fake martial arts that Niddar teaches will be very loose to say the least. Sure Sikh martial arts have changed over the last hundred years. From the time when they were used to actually kill people, the techniques would have focussed on killing techniques. All martial arts are at their best during times of war. However, they are also at their most simple and direct.

The concept of Jhatka is a simple and direct one, just like sticking a bayonet through someones heart in world war two is a simple concept and is a form of 'jhatka'. Sikhs were not martial artists. They were soldiers and had to get the job done quickly and simply. Be suspicious of anyone who teaches that martial arts are more complex and cerebral, during times of war.

If Niddar's martial arts reflected simplicity over fine motor skill and complex technique I would be more inclined to believe that they were used during times of war.

Nevertheless, please send your links, I would be more than happy to research this topic further, in case you are somehow right.

[Cisco_Singh]

I dont claim to be right but healthy debate is always good, im not alligned to the SV akharas but it's the closest I can find with relevance and probbability of being a Puratan Khalsa combat system, it obviously wasnt Gatka.I agree not all Sikhs were not martial artists, but there were smaller number of higher skilled warriors "bhujangis", "Akali Nihangs" who were given those designations as acknoweldgements of attaining higher levels of martial skills. You can listen to Baba Ram Singh in his audio mentioning the higher vidiyas as those of "chatka".

You can see Pat O Malleys endoresments over on this thread

http://martialartsplanet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103089&page=2

You'll also see links to the youtube video on the above thread at a recent seminar in September 2011, where you'll see Maul Mornie in attendance. The thread also mentions the next senminar being arranged for 2012 with Pat O Malley and Maul Mornie.

If you see the SV group on Facebook you'll find the link to the Baba Ram, Singh audio recording. Theres also a discussion over on Rum Soaked Fist with some intresting comments.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14472

You can also see on youtube or the SV Facebook group links to SV demonstrations at the Budowarrior school of which the

teacher is Shihan Marc Moor (13th Dan Bujinkan). Infact you should joing the facebook group anyway and ask some questions, tyheres a lot more knowledable people than me there, Im just posting some links I found on the net. Or better still go direct to the source and visit one of the classes and ask questions directly.

[ksb80]

Why do singhs have pot bellies ?

[yubacitysingh]

If you want to learn how to fight then you want to learn the best systems out their

in the 90's in no rules tournments we saw boxers muay thai fighters ji jitsu artist wrestlers defeat the top traditional martial artists

So for stand up boxing and muay thai for ground ji jitsu and wrestling

shastar vidya unless they compete or spare then i see it as a waste of time

[DustOfTheSaintsFeet]

^^Great, when defending Gurbani, freedom of faith and fellow devotees, we must adopt the best methods possible against our opponents, although bombs etc would be out of the question. But there is nothing wrong with a good old punch in the face if need be.

[ksb80]

Why are you obsessed with violence in this day and age?

[yubacitysingh]

people need to learn to defend themselves and learn the best

learn the system that is most effective