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Kirtan Is More Important Than Katha


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The type of katha we see these days is not modern. Guru Ji himself explained the arths of Gurbani to the Sikhs in "lecture" style format starting from Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Did Guru Ji say to the Sikhs, gather around and we will have a discussion? No. Guru Ji gave us the best example, and to call this modern, is just riduculous.

The open vichar format is where people like you and me can meet and discuss Gurmat etc, such as this forum is the type of discussion you are talking about.

Bhagat Kabir Ji, was in the habit of meeting Sants and Fakirs and discussing God with them, That is not katha. Listen to the Guru, and look to the Guru for guidance, not a man. If the man is giving you some "teaching" against the example of the Guru, then its best to discard that man. Not to try and prove the Guru wrong.

Perhaps Guru Ji did himself explain the arths of Gurbani but this is totally different to one Gursikh on his/her own being given authority to teach sangat the meanings of Gurbani.

I am not saying that doing vichar and discussing is katha. Like I said my understanding of what its meant when the word 'katha' appears in Gurbani is naam, gurbani etc. itself, not explanation of it.

However, when you said that we will not understand bani or make any attempts to do so if we do not believe in 'katha' as in a lecture by one gursikh (although like I said I do not believe this should be given the name 'katha), I was merely stating that this is not the case as we can get an understanding of Gurbani through open vichar. If you are saying Guru Ji used to explain the meanings in a 'lecture' style format then remember that the Guru is now in the sangat (but not any individual except Guru Granth Sahib Ji), therefore it is my belief that doing vichar in sangat form, if it is done with pure intentions and not enmity or pride and having done ardas to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, this would have the same effect as a 'lecture', so to speak, by Guru Sahib himself.

so what? that cretin kala afghana has written a similiar amount of books. this make either of the authors infallible?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe s50 was merely replying to your statement that Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh was against people understanding Gurbani, when he stated that Bhai Sahib has written books giving his interpretation of bani, so clearly he does believe in exploring the meanings of bani. I don't believe s50 brought this up to infer that Bhai Sahib was infallible.

It depends as for some kirtan is more helpful for them to realise the truth and sometimes katha is more beneficial for others. But I have noticed that people who only do kirtan and don't listen to katha find it difficult to convey the message of sikhi when others ask them.

Certainly we must do khoj of bani but there are other ways of understanding what bani is saying other than through simply listening to 'katha'. Your second sentence infers that by listening only to kirtan, i.e. bani alone we will not have enough grasp of Sikhi to share with others. Baba Amaro (Guru Amar Das Ji before being given Gurgaddi) did not become a Sikh when he got a lecture on Sikhi from Bibi Amro, but when he heard her singing Gurbani. The words of Baba Amaro: ""Daughter, I was dead. This amrit-baaNee has entered my ears and I am alive again. My state is exactly like the one described in that shabad. Please take me to the one who's baaNee this is. Please recite that shabad again". This is the Paaras Kala power of Amrit Bani, no other words can compare to it.

When Guru Nanak Dev Ji went on his udasis the first thing he did was sing Gurbani, not give a lecture on concepts and principles, who knows how many people joined the path when Guru Ji did this alone. Come to think of it I do not recall any sakhi of any puratan Gursikh converting to Sikhi on hearing a lecture, instead I remember converts to Gursikhi becoming completely nihaal on hearing just one line of Gurbani. That is not to say that they did not delve into the meanings of Gurbani in the course of their Gursikhi life, but the Kaliyaan came from and will always come from pure Gurbani itself.

However having knowledge through katha is vital because one needs gian of what ego, atma, falseness of what my maya is - veechara is a must. You can sing and sing but without understanding it won't help too much.

Certainly we can get such gian through singing and listening to Gurbani alone, I have no doubts about this in my mind. The Satguru (Gurbani) is Poora. Veechara help in that we, through fault of our own do not attach our surat to bani enough, so doing veechar of meanings helps increase our sharda, but veechara in themselves will not give us param gat. Someone could have knowledge of all of these things through veechara or katha but this will not save them, only bhau bhagti through Gurbani and Naam will.

Guru Nanak Patshah states in Sri Jap Ji Sahib:

ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥

Gaaveeai Suneeai Man Rakheeai Bhaao ||

Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.

ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥

Dhukh Parehar Sukh Ghar Lai Jaae ||

Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.

Before the 'Mannai' pauris of Sri Jap Ji Sahib (which would require an understanding of bani, to follow), the 'Suniai' pauris appear, which state clearly what can be attained from simply listening to the Gurbani and Naam that we sing/recite, way too many benefits of listening to what we sing to paste here! Certainly, the deeper understanding we need for 'Mannai' as in the next pauri, which some hope to gain from listening to discourse, we will gain while on step of 'Sunniai'.

At the end of the day, Guru Baba states in Jap Ji Sahib,

ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਟਿ ॥

There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.

ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ॥

Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.

yet further down he tells us what the praiseworthy action is:

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥

True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.

ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥

People beg and pray, ""Give to us, give to us"", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.

ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥

So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?

ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥

What words can we speak to evoke His Love?

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.

There you go ^, the entire essence of Sikhi explained through Bani itself.

However if everyone gets gyan from varitety of sources then it would be helpful as you can easily compare and contrast and find mistakes in both giani randhir singh's work and kala afghana's work.

I am glad that we both agree on the need to compare and contrast between views of different Gursikhs, almost exactly like I stated in my earlier post ;)

The crux of the matter is, Gurbani continuously talks about the singing and listening of Gurbani and naam, but I have yet to see where Gurbani states that 'katha' means one Gursikh giving a discourse on the meaning of bani (his own interpretation). Please share if there are any such tuks.

I would like to make very clear here that I am NOT against discussing bani, doing vichar of bani and exploring its meanings. This is a very important part of Gursikhi life.

bhull chukk maaf

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so what? that cretin kala afghana has written a similiar amount of books. this make either of the authors infallible?

Chatanga ji, why stop at kala afghana and Bhai Sahib, why not keep on making the list kala afgana, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji, Baba Thakur Singh ji, Baba Nand Singh ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh ji, Sant Jarnail Singh ji.

It is such a shame that you have to compare Bhai Sahib with a patit kala afgana. Why you have to bring your hatred for Bhai Sahib into every topic and ruin the topics.

Where are the administrators? They were so quick to put me under quality control when I stood up for Dashmesh Pita ji's bani and exposed wrongdoings of a dodgy website. But chatanga ji have free rein to disrespect our beloved gursikhs.

Chantaga ji you call yourself a very staunch sampardaic sikh, can you learn something from the beautiful lines from Piare Sant Gurbachan Singh ji's poem where he addresses Bhai Sahib ji as sant and you have hard time putting Bhai in front of Bhai Sahib's name.

Singh ji, where are we heading with this much hatred for your fellow gursikhs.

Back to the topic, I think we should respect each other's views about katha and keertan. I know these days you will find so many dodgy keertanis, so many dodgy sants and so many dodgy katha vaachaks. They just have opened their shops to collect loads of money. I think we should work hard ourselves to understand Gurbani and not blindly follow any sant, any kathavaachak, any keertani. I can tell you that I can listen to Sant Gurbachan Singh ji and Sant Mohan Singh ji's katha because I know they have immense kamai and high avastha.

Today all this media hype (you tube, facebook) have boosted all these dodgy people's egos, I have seen some keertani's advertising their own keertan on facebook. What should we think of this dhunda guy, he calles himself a big kathavaachak. On one side he is saying punjabis shouldn't follow all these sant babas because they have made themselves rich by collecting innocent sangat's money but what is he doing collecting loads of money and medals from gullible sangat.

So we have to very careful who we listen to these days, be it keertan or katha. Work on our own jeevans, please lets not pick on each other over little thinks and work toward a bigger goal.......

I hope admins allow my post on the forum and also give me an explanation for quality control label......

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singhstah, no matter what Bhai Randhir SIngh beleived and the fact that you base your knowledge on what he beleived it to be, the historical practice of katha of one person, giving arths of gurbani to sangat has existed. You can call it what you want.

You even say "perhaps" refering to Guru Ji giving arth parmaan and kath of Gurbani, so for a start you dont even beleive the Guru. Like i said earlier, any man who takes you away from Gurmat becasue of his own beliefs should be discarded for the Guru.

You say one can get gian through singing alone, this is not true. Loads of people sing gurbani at the Gurdwara, how many of them can explain the shabad? 10% ? 5% ? even that is excessive according to what ive seen. and then again you've been to rainsbhaies, why do they use STTM? So the chelas of the person who said you dont need to study the arths of Gurbani, can actually UNDERSTAND the shabad.

Why is STTM so popualr in gurdwaras? because singing alone does not bring gian or essence of the shabad. Why have so many youths gone away form sikhi? because they didnt understand the gian or essence of what they were singing when they were younger, so they found it boring and began to avoid the gurdwara.

And as for cutting and mixing 2 pauris of Japji to try and prove your point, well what can i say.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not sing shabad all the time either to show people the message of gurmat. The case of Malik Bhago is witness to this, and the story of Guru Ji at Mecca. etc.

Admins, well done for editing my earlier post.

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pointless debate - both elements of katha for the sake of learning and for akath katha the bhavana for it to be naam which will trancend you hgiher and - of course kirtan are necessary.

conclusion always draws to kamai of Gurbani - repitition of it - repitition is the mother of all skill - consider what is it that you don't do in repitition?

but it has to be repitition not parrot fashioned but from the heart, just as you eat from the heart, you talk daily to your family from the heart.

too many high egos on here-

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both are required..

but katha should be totally minimised to those who actually have some level of kamai or understanding... too many kathavachaks these days.. taken amrit like a week ago, then on stage doing katha with little understanding...

No need for that many katha vaachaks.. we are lucky to have a wealth of audio katha from the past from people who knew what they were talking about.

As for translations of gurbani.. this should be TOTALLY minimised... Maharaaj speaks to everyone in their own way, its a personal relationship between Maharaaj and his Sikh.

For example, "Humrai Dusht Sabhai Tum Ghao aap Hath Dai Moeh Bachavo"

Some people say its your external enemies, some people say its your internal enemies... Let the person know the basic translation.. and let the Guru Speak the exact translation to the individual themselves.

When one kathavaachak contradicts the other it just gets silly.... just do line by line basic translation..

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Chatanga ji, why stop at kala afghana and Bhai Sahib, why not keep on making the list kala afgana, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji, Baba Thakur Singh ji, Baba Nand Singh ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh ji, Sant Jarnail Singh ji.

It is such a shame that you have to compare Bhai Sahib with a patit kala afgana. Why you have to bring your hatred for Bhai Sahib into every topic and ruin the topics.

Where are the administrators? They were so quick to put me under quality control when I stood up for Dashmesh Pita ji's bani and exposed wrongdoings of a dodgy website. But chatanga ji have free rein to disrespect our beloved gursikhs.

Chantaga ji you call yourself a very staunch sampardaic sikh, can you learn something from the beautiful lines from Piare Sant Gurbachan Singh ji's poem where he addresses Bhai Sahib ji as sant and you have hard time putting Bhai in front of Bhai Sahib's name.

Ikjot Ji, I have not compared Bhai Randhir Singh to kala afghana, as two humans or 2 sikhs etc. What S50 said was that Bhai Randhir Singh has written so many books on sikhi insinuating that he has to be an authority, and I have replied that kala afghana has written a similair amount of books, so should we accept him as an authority as well?

My point is that number of books written by a person doesn't automatically mean they are all true or correct, or that the author HAS to be accepted as all-knowing.

and as for hatred towards Bhai randhir Singh, i dont have any, i just don't beleive in his views as much as some people do. That doesnt mean i hate him, hate is a very strong word Ji. And if i say i don't agree with some of the things that Bhai Randhir Singh has written, does that mean i am disrespecting him? No.

And as you can see above i dont have a hard time putting in Bhai for a man who's views i dont totally agree with , so everyone who contributes in this forum, let's follow my example and address, Darshan Singh as Prof Darshan Singh, Niddar Singh as such, Santa Singh as Baba Santa SIngh, Giani Jarnail Singh as Sant Jarnail Singh, etc yes?

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You even say "perhaps" refering to Guru Ji giving arth parmaan and kath of Gurbani, so for a start you dont even beleive the Guru.

Please clarify this statement in bold. You said "Guru Ji himself explained the arths of Gurbani to the Sikhs in "lecture" style format starting from Guru Nanak Dev Ji." giving no source, my reply to that was based on the assumption that this actually happened. Just because I am unsure whether what you stated about Guru Sahib is true or not, how does this mean I don't believe the Guru? Please do not make such emotive statments or rather total insults for no reason.

Like i said earlier, any man who takes you away from Gurmat becasue of his own beliefs should be discarded for the Guru.

Clearly each person understands Gurmat individually, and this will apply to members of the same samprada, it is impossible to say that Gursikhs will have exactly the same views on Gurmat as each other, I think only brahmgianis or near to that will have exactly the same views as only they will be 100% correct on everything. Therfore your statment that I am being taken away from Gurmat because I agree with Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh on this issue is a subjective one, perhaps I am not inline with your interpretation of Gurmat, but to me this view on katha is totally in line with Gurmat, considering it has been totally backed by Gurbani. If something does not go against what Gurbani is saying or the Panj Pyare, then that is Gurmat for me. If anyone, be it Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh or any other Gursikh puts forward a view that cannot be backed up by Gurbani then I will not blindly follow it. Though I don't see why I need to be sitting here defending my own beliefs anyway.

You say one can get gian through singing alone, this is not true. Loads of people sing gurbani at the Gurdwara, how many of them can explain the shabad? 10% ? 5% ? even that is excessive according to what ive seen.

Firstly note the context of what I said, it was in reply a comment stating people who listen to keertan and not katha will not be able to explain Gurbani to others. I was trying to clarify the principle that it is not impossible to get such gian without listening to katha. i.e. singing alone meaning to the exclusion of listening to katha. Please read the post I was replying to first.

The Sunniai pauries of Jap Ji Sahib clearly state what we can attain through the act of listening to Gurbani/Naam (that which we sing/recite). Through listening we can achieve the state of sidhs, peers and naaths, naash of all dukh and paap, knowledge of shaastar, simritees and vedas, etc. Even the honour of reading vidhia (ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥) Whatever Guru Baba wrote is 100% fact.

It is a very long process. I am not saying you go and sing one shabad and you will get gian. I am just stating that it is certainly possible to recieve param gat through singing gurbani, that is provided one is a Guru vala, in rehat etc (. If you read Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji's biography, there is a sakhi of a mentally disabled person taught to jap vaheguru, he could not even pronounce vaheguru properly yet he started reaching amazingly high avasthas due to doing vaheguru jaap day and night.

I don't believe I said anywhere that we should't do veechar of bani, I said in my post that I am not against doing vichar of bani, I clearly stated that our surat does not join itself with the shabad that we are singing therefore we do not progress and that this is when we can use veechaar to aid us in increasing our sharda. In actual fact most of us should do some khoj of bani, however, this does not take away from the fact that it is possible to reach the highest state through singing Gurbani and naam abhiyas provided one is Guru Vala and OBEYS this bani totally. How many of the people in the Gurdwara are amritdhari, how many people do naam jap/have naam (i.e. taken amrit)? This why there is very little effect.

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Lord, Har, Har.

ਗਾਵਿਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੧॥

Their singing and listening is approved by the Lord; they accept the Order of the True Guru as True, totally True. ||1||

ਬੋਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਤੀਰਥਿ ॥

Chant the Lord's Praises, O Siblings of Destiny; the Lord is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage in the terrifying world-ocean.

ਹਰਿ ਦਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਜਿਨ ਜਨਹੁ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

They alone are praised in the Court of the Lord, O Saints, who know and understand the Lord's sermon. ||Pause|| - Note on this translation, ironically or maybe fittingly for yourself, the word katha is used here in this line, which the translators have put as "know and understand the Lord's sermon", so really like I have been infering, this whole issue is down to our interpretation of the word Katha in Gurbani, I would take this to mean Naam Simran/Gurmantar which is given to all who come to take amrit by the Guru, this makes sense to me considering there are two lines which make up the rahou pankti and the first one is about chanting har keerat i.e. naam, this tells me that katha in the second lines means naam. So my understanding is if we want the full results/phal of listening to and singing Gurbani, we must accept the orders of Gurbani- which is to jap naam and this can only be done if we know what naam is - which can only be obtained through taking amrit. I believe that this is what this shabad is in fact saying.

and then again you've been to rainsbhaies, why do they use STTM? So the chelas of the person who said you dont need to study the arths of Gurbani, can actually UNDERSTAND the shabad.

I've been to rainsabhais, how did you guess lol. Disregarding your 'chela' comment, once more for the nth time, a disbelief that 'katha' means a lecture does not equate to saying we do not need to study the arths of Gurbani, how many times does this need to be said? Its quite simple, it is used because they do not even understand the literal words, being brought up in western countries so it is to let people know what is being said, once more this does not take away from the principle that we can obtain paramgat through singing and listening.

Why is STTM so popualr in gurdwaras? because singing alone does not bring gian or essence of the shabad. Why have so many youths gone away form sikhi? because they didnt understand the gian or essence of what they were singing when they were younger, so they found it boring and began to avoid the gurdwara.

Pretty much addressed above

Anyway, until someone can show that 'katha' in any instance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji di bani means a lecture by Gursikh there is not much more to say. All I can ask is forgiveness if I have offended anyone and forgiveness for any wrong interpretation of bani, knowing both Guru and sangat as bakhshanhaar. When it boils down to it we must remember we are all children of the same father (this is not directed to anyone in particular)

ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਕੇ ਹੋਵਹੁ ਜੋੜੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੈਸਹੁ ਸਫਾ ਵਿਛਾਇ ॥੧॥

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