Sikh Girls Targeted - Intelligent And Well Evidenced Slideshow

[BhaiSukhSingh]

Vaheguroo Jee.

'Chatanga' your actually right - I emailed someone (highly knowledgeable) and they bascially stated that having more than 1 wife was 'normal' - it was part of the K'Sha'tree culture - Guroo Sahib's had NO attachment to anything but as Guroo Sahib is Poora - by adopted the K'Sha'Tree rehnee behnee - Guroo Sahib ensured it was Pooraa. To "prove" that Guroo Gobind Singh Jee Has 3 Mehl - all three Maataa'vaa'n are still remembered today in the locations where they resided and left for SachKhand i.e. Mata Jeeto Jee's and Mata Sundar Kaur Jee's "Death" location (There are Gurdvarae there now) and Mata Sahib Kaur Jee who we are universally known and acknowledged.

Thanks for everyone that posted - Guroo Kripa you have blessed me with Giaan.

Please don't continue this debate - I think 'Singhner23' and 'Chatanga' have done right by 'agreeing to disagree.' Vaheguroo Jee. I'm just happy that I've benefitted from this. =)

[West London Singh]

'Sikh Girls Targetted : Intelligent and Well Evidenced Slideshow' ? I don't think so. To me its simply a hate filled bigoted slideshow designed to hurt. Put yourself in the position of one of the 99% of muslims in this country, who are simply very religious and get on with teir lives without hurting others. What has he or she done to you that they deserve this abuse of their religious teachings ? Think what opinion he or she must now have for Sikhs ?

[Mat Pulo Rai]

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In reply to ‘Chatanga’ and ‘genie’:

Human's are prone to error; therefore mistakes could easily have been made.

However I cannot agree with your statement that implies; Sikhs are allowed to have more than one wife/husband.

Guroo Teg Bhadhur Jee Blessed Their Su'putar; our Pita Jee, Guroo Gobind Singh Jee with the following Hukamnama; in turn Guroo Gobind Singh Jee Has Blessed us with that very Hukam:

ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥

Sudhh Jab Thae Ham Dhharee Bachan Gur Dheae Hamarae ||

ਪੂਤ ਇਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਨ ਤੋਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟ ਥਾਰੇ ॥

Pooth Eihai Pran Thohi Pran Jab Lag Ghatt Thharae ||

ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹ ਤੁਮ ਨਿੱਤ ਬਢੈਯਹੁ ॥

Nij Naree Kae Sang Naeh Thum Nth Badtaiyahu ||

ਪਰਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜੈਯਹੁ ॥੫੧॥

Paranaree Kee Saej Bhool Supanae Hoon N Jaiyahu ||51||

Roughly (Guroo Sahib Baksh'daen) - Guroo Sahib Jee Have Given Hukam that as long as you (Poot = Putar Jee) have Praan (breath) in your body; consider it just and righteous to have a physical relationship (upon mutual consent) with your Naaree (Wife/Singhnee). HOWEVER; do NOT enter the bed of a Par-Naaree (another/another's Wife) EVEN in your dreams.

Clearly, Guroo Sahib Jee has Stated that a Singh/Singhnee should be loyal and committed in word, thought and deed to the Singh/Singhnee they had Anand Kaarj with for as long as they have breath in the body. Equally, if people are to argue based on context then subjects of divorce, death etc are all a different matter/debateable. However in this context (having more than one wife) your comments (with all due respect) are invalid.

Gursikhs have (well, we are supposed to have) a higher Jeevan than to live 'collecting' wives and husbands - the Gristee Jeevan is the most pure and most beautiful Jeevan any form could have or want (as Bhaee Gurdaas Singh Jee have Stated in Their Vaaraa(n). Arguing that "Some of the Guru Ji's had more than 1 wife" – (which I find difficult to believe or accept) is not only disrespectful to the morals and principles of Guroo Jee but will be harmful for the coming generations who will believe it's "ok" to have numerous relationships - impacting their Spiritual (most importantly), physical, mental and financial state of mind and circumstances.

Guroo Sahib Jee’s that YOU state may Have Had “more than one Wife” – did not have any physical relationships with anyone except their own Mehl (Wife/Singhnee) – for example: Mata Sahib Kaur Jee Who Have Devoted Their WHOLE Self to Guroo Gobind Singh Jee; upon Mata Jee’s Father’s and Mother’s request that our Daughter will ONLY marry You – Guroo Sahib Jee did Bachan that They were already married and They couldn’t marry Mata Sahib Deva(n) Jee – as per Guroo Sahib’s Bachan:

ibrQI kdy n hoveI jn kI Ardwis ]

birathhee kadhae n hovee jan kee aradhaas ||

The prayer of the Lord's humble servant is never offered in vain

Guroo Sahib Jee Said instead Mata Jee could Remain in Their Presence as part of the immediate family/household though that is all that it would ever be– eventually Mata Jee Became the Mother of Khalsa Panth – a HUGE Blessing for Them and ESPECIALLY Us.

As for the comment about how the slideshow contains scenes of nudity; first of all the slideshow does not necessarily have to be shown in the Darbaar Sahib or in a Sangat setting – Guroo Sahib’s Kirpa we have numerous locations where Sikhi camps/classes can be held for this ONE slideshow – with a mature approach to this ever engulfing subject – “risks/sacrifices” should be made. If needs be the slideshow can be shown separately to Singhs and Singhneeyaa; parents can be shown separately etc.

A humble beantee is that there is no point in ‘nit-picking’ or discarding such effort over such superficial aspects. There is a huge threat of our brothers and sisters who are raised in a westernised household who have no idea about their religion, culture, history and values – who are at the threshold of losing their own being, Sikhi, family and life. Surely this effort towards avoiding such a situation is one step closer to saving some young vulnerable girl?

I agree with you – the purpose of such resources are intended for those families who are yet to take hold of Guroo Sahib’s Charan.

With it being a technological era – this slideshow or similar sources could possibly be forwarded through Blackberries/IPhones – Guroo Sahib Kirpa Karn Kae we need to reach out to our brothers and sisters without coming across too overbearing.

Regardless whether we have positive or negative comments about the slideshow - that isn't the point - the point is this a very valuable source of information that needs to be distributed to our community - after that they have the choice to make a judgement and choose how they live their life.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Jee.

Totally Agree with Bhai Shiab, very well written

[KhalistaniGunMan]

'Sikh Girls Targetted : Intelligent and Well Evidenced Slideshow' ? I don't think so. To me its simply a hate filled bigoted slideshow designed to hurt. Put yourself in the position of one of the 99% of muslims in this country, who are simply very religious and get on with teir lives without hurting others. What has he or she done to you that they deserve this abuse of their religious teachings ? Think what opinion he or she must now have for Sikhs ?

stop burying your head in the sand..have you even met radicalised islamist youth in this country?..

[West London Singh]

stop burying your head in the sand..have you even met radicalised islamist youth in this country?..

My eyes have seen both the 1% that hate me because I'm a Sikh and the 99% that are wonderfull human beings who show me, my family and my faith upmost respect. I'm not about to go on a 'rubbishing islam' mission that will hurt the feelings of the good majority just because I'm slightly peeved with the mental minority. That, in itself, is showing us Sikhs as having a mental majority.

[punjab5]

stop burying your head in the sand..have you even met radicalised islamist youth in this country?..

I am afraid that SAS are similar in that they are radicalised 'Sikhs', who blame all Muslims for all the faults in the Sikh community.

Would it not have been better to engage in conversation with respected Muslim Organisations, making them aware Sikh community feelings on this issue and working with them to identify the culprits and isolate them, that is the 'radical islamist youth'.

[Singhstah]

Bhai Gurdas has written " Eka nari..." . If this was to mean one woman, wouldnt it have made more sense to write "Ek nari..."

What does the "a" after the ek denote?

Also why this injunction on males only? Bhai Gurdas has written about eh character of a Sikh, but why exclusivley male Sikh?

In regards to the quote from Bhai Gurdas Ji Di vaara;

ਏਕਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਜਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਧੀ ਭੈਣ ਵਖਾਣੈ।

aykaa naaree jatee hoi par naaree dhee bhain vakhaanai.

एका नारी जती होइ पर नारी धी भैण वखाणै ।

Having one woman as wife he (the Sikh) is a celebate and considers any other's wife as his daughter or a sister.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੩

I have checked with Bhai Kulbir Singh who is extremely knowledgeable in Gurbani grammer, who has clarified that 'eka' still means one, by showing quotes from Gurbani where 'Eka' has been used to mean one:

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ॥

ਏਕਾ ਟੇਕ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਚੀਤ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਮੀਤ ॥1॥

Just because the line from Bhai Gurdas stated a male should only have one wife, this does not mean that women can have multiple husbands. It is this same quote from which we get the principle of men looking at all women other than their wife as mother, daughter or sister, and although the wording is only written from a male perspective, it is also used in the exact same way to instruct women to look at men other than their husbands as fathers, brothers and sons. In the same way we take the principle from this that a Sikh, be it a man or a woman, is to have only one spouse. To try to make it gender specific just because of the wording is really clutching at straws. Plenty of gurbani is written from a male perspective but it is unanimously accepted that the meaning of such shabads applies to both men and women. For example, in bhagat dhanna ji's shabad in arti, bhagat sahib ji requests a wife, it would be ridiculous to say that this shabad cannot apply to a woman because of such wording, or that only men have been given the right to do ardas for a spouse and not women.

If you say that Guru Gobind Singh Ji is God himself, then you are going against Gurbani.

2ndly , Guru is the prime example for Sikhs. Whatever Guru Ji did/said is our sikhya. Your argument is one that many Muslims say about Mohammed, who had 11 wives, even thought they are only allowed 4 at one time max. Muslims say that Mohammed was the perfcet man, yet he didnt obey his own God.

If we are in any situation good or bad, then who better to look to for guidance than our own perfect Guru.To say that we can do this thing because Guru Ji did it, but not this thing becasue even though Guru Ji did it, we dont wear a kalgi, or sit on a takht doesnt really add up to me.

Guru ji being God is a totally seperate subject, if you didn't like that one point, I have given other points to show actions Guru Ji himself did but Sikhs must not do, eg wearing a kalgi. We have indisputable examples of things Guru Ji did which Guru Ji has not allowed for Sikhs.

Yes we should look to Guru Ji for guidance, but the way to do this is not to look at everything Guru Ji did and imitate it, but to see which hukams guru ji has given to us and in the act of following those hukams see how guru ji practiced them. Everything Guru Sahib did is not for a Sikh to do, but everything a Sikh is meant to do, Guru Sahib did do to show us how.

For example, there is a sakhi of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Bhai Mardana needing to cross over a river, Guru Sahib told Bhai Mardana to jap vaheguru gurmantar, and in doing so bhai mardana ji was able to start walking across it, while doing so guru sahib started chanting something else which bhai mardana then started to chant, at this bhai mardana ji began to sink, when he started to jap vaheguru upon guru sahib telling him to do so again, he came back up and was able to cross over.

To sum up, Bhai Gurdas Ji Di vaara clearly spell out that a Sikh has only one spouse. Whether or not Guru Sahib had more than one spouse, even if he did it was not for any worldly reason that an ordinary human would do so but for very good reasons known to him, but this does not give us the right to do so.

[chatanga]

In regards to the quote from Bhai Gurdas Ji Di vaara;

ਏਕਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਜਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਧੀ ਭੈਣ ਵਖਾਣੈ।

aykaa naaree jatee hoi par naaree dhee bhain vakhaanai.

एका नारी जती होइ पर नारी धी भैण वखाणै ।

Having one woman as wife he (the Sikh) is a celebate and considers any other's wife as his daughter or a sister.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੩

Ek Nari means one woman. Eka Nari does not.

[Singhstah]

Ek Nari means one woman. Eka Nari does not.

How does it not mean one woman? Why don't you tell us what you think it means? Gurbani quotes have been provided which show that the word 'Eka' is used to mean exactly the same thing as 'Ek'.

[genie]

Can some learned members tell us how many wives did Guru Har Rai and Guru Hargobind have ?