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it is harder for some people to get away form destiny than others. through karam, it is harder for some people to increase than others. some only fine this at the start.. so basically, its hard to get started.. others, it carries on when they find a way to get started...

these things are har to get away from. and the only way is to go to charan. either, of sant, or sangat. i.e. jore di seva. doing bani is good and does halp. but jore di seva, is what u need to do. its ur choice, im not teling u to do it.

it can mean that you are destined to be able to handle alot more than normal people so this is why things happen in more of a way to you.

giving up makes u stat where u are. meaning, u dont increase how u are destined to increase.

karam plays a lota part in it.

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Some are not understanding where Mat Pul Rai is coming from. This is the problem we have on internet, as its difficult to explain so something in sentences as one would like, thus leading to different

When our Gurus referred to idolatry in terms of the worship of inert stones, I wonder if they were also referencing the issue on a deeper level, i.e. the worship of Man? We see in this modern world ho

okay this is confusing now, so im going to just carry on doing what my mann thinks is right. everybody seems to have different thinking. And just hope waheguru leads me the right way, without listeni

It seva of shoes. You put them in a line (organize them), wipe shoes off with a cloth or tissue paper. and/or polish the shoes. Usually done at the gurudwara.

Then later you are supposed to wipe your forehead with the cloth or tissue paper(could be from regular paper roll) to get the dust of the sangat's feet.

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^bump. yea, its seva of shoes. each shoe in the gurdwara, you put that on you forhead. with your hands, or cloth, or whatever. hands is best. some people also wash their hands in a bata and drink that as amrit.. (charan saadh ke dhoe dhoe P O )

this is true amrit. each shoe that u take, should be taken as your gurus jore. so u get a shoe, and think, this is the jore (the shoes) of my guru. :) this is a very very powerfull thing. so simple, yet u can change ur entire life with this! try doing it for 40 days (continous or not) then u will see an amazing difference. forget everything. just look at the shoes. do ur naam simran, and do that seva. yes, u can put it in a line etc.. even u can also bring sum shoe shiner!!! : D then the person comes back and finds their shoes like brand new!!!! :glomp:

gurfateh

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It's odd you say that as my I'll be happy during the day and then will become upset or just on a 'downer' at lunch ( always around 12)

But I don't understand why this would happen. Wouldn't God be happy that we atleast pray every so often to just say thank you and ask to be led the right way?!

you know i feel like that sometimes... with me i listen to bani sometime and i feel that if i dont another day then somehtin will go wrong and it affects me constantly!

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Thanks everyone. Im a bit confused about the shoe seva. I thought in Sikhi we didn't have to do these rituals etc to get closer to God or to get a peace of mind?!

Your absolutely right, the post above which was edited was around 20 lines long about how what alias is misplaced about what Gurbani says about Charran and Thoord, my fault i didn’t rewrite it but, simply putting it, seva is to humble the mind, rubbing dirt does not help in you progression, is actually a health risk if you put in a glass and drank it, so i advice against that, if there’s any interest then I’ll do a small write up on what Gurbani says about Charan and Thoord.

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Yes please! See this is what is confusing ... I feel like every interpretation contradicts itself - it's scary to follow something thinking its right but then all along it may have been the other thing u disregarded which was right... Does God use the 'well the thought is what counts' philosophy?!

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no gurbani is misplaced. have a look at what the word deekhiya means.. and how amrit was given to the sangat at the time of guru nanak dev ji (and even at the time of guru gobind singh ji)..

most people know that most other people dont agree with doing shoe seva like that. but those that want to create their own writings in the form of a write up, feel free. doing seva like that, is as per that individuals prefference. and no writeup can change what bani says.. if somone say that charan saad ke dhoe dhoe peeo doesnt mean what it says, then u are warping bani. look at how guru nanak dev G braught naam and amrit down from heaven. and then, how this amrit was carried from guru too guru untill guru gobind singh G eternalised it.

its a fact that akj sangat, akaali sangat, budda dal sangat, taksaal sangat, all believe in charan thoor from sangat.. and ask any learned sikh, what to do when your mind aint wirking.. its not goog for "anon" guy hu is posting when one person says one thing, and another says another.. as in im saying, guru G s bani says in plain bani, what to do and what is good to do, and someone else is saying no, thas not the case, its a health hazzard. : / !

i woudl suggest to the poster, just read sukhnmani sahib. keertan sohela.. the bani that u do every day, "...santan ki dhoore" ..,

simply put, bani says what it says.. those that say, it cannot mean this, cuzza this this n this, are trying to limit bani. simples..

i would suggest to u, go to a good gurdwara, find a good nice gyani, id suggest main one soho road, and ask them, what is jore di seva. and y do we put it on our 4head..

it is not ritualistic.. in this sense, reciting ur bani nitnem is a ritual.. most dont understand it what the effect it has on you, so it becomes a ritual.

i would sugest to anojn, rad the bani, talk to sum one who you like what who knows.. posting on these forums, well.. its good. but u will get told this is right n that aint.. when, most of the time, its jus the agendas of individual people that they want to impart on you. read bani, and talk to somone that u like..

everyone who i have spoken to in numerous gurdware says, if u cant concentrate, do jore di seva. if ur mind wanders in the main hall, look at the feel of the sangat as they walk. think of the sangats jore (shoes) as your gurus jore. as, u are in guru ghar..

a person will always be limited if they are not at the feet of sangat..

sant jarnail singh ji said, scatter my ashes in front of darbaar sahib for numerous reasons. and being at the feet of the sangat, was one big reason.. talk to people who know.. no those wishing to put fwd their own agendas..

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Well Alias, im definitely not in it for my own agenda, im not trying to start my own cult if thats what you mean :) wonder what i would call it.. but in all seriousness, if you don’t believe in the explanations which I have been taught thats your choice.

I used to be around Bhai Rama Singh Jee when i was young and had the opportunity to do Jorai di seva with Bhai Shaib, also my brother was commissioned to make the illustrations of Bhai shaibs dreams within the book.

Now how they told us to do Joria de seva was to 1st believe there are Guru Shiabs Joria, clean the outside (not the sole) and inside of the shoe, then Rub that dust on your forehead and at the same time doing simran.

As I said the Seva is to humble one’s self and to come to the understanding that we are the dust of all around us, but Guru Shiab says one can’t be taught the lessons of Spirituality filled with ego, so clean the toilets or the dishes or hover, whatever picks you’re fancy. Now this covers seva, not what Thoor and Charran within Gurbani means.

Gurbani is the khooj (understanding) of Gods game and what God gifts his Beloved

Charran in a spiritual context means Naam, Sehj Dhun, Unhadh Bani.

Now gurshaibs have said that by listening to Naam you obtain Amrit from within Dasam Duaar

gur parasaadh anmrith ras cheenaiaa oue paavehi mokh dhuaarae |2|

By Guru's Grace, they are aware of this ambrosial essence; they find the Gate of Salvation. ||2||

When they say

gur kae charan dhoe dhoe peevaa |1|

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1||

They mean by listening to Naam and doing simran I drink Amrit Raas over and over

-Sub section

Unhadh Bani is called Guru by Guru Nanak dev ji when they were asked who your Guru is by the Sadhs Guru Nanak Dev Jee answered

sabadh guroo surath dhun chaelaa |

The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.

The reason he calls Unhadh Shabad Guru is because this is the Sound which came out of Vaheguru Mokh, at the beginning of creation. And its this sound which we call Naam and through this we detach from this body and travel back to where God resides.

thaeraa mukh suhaavaa jeeo sehaj dhun baanee |

Your mouth is so Beautiful, and the Sound is your bani. (God has no mouth it’s just a metaphor for where the sound comes from, Unhadh means Unstruck meaning no cords)

Ok These are verse from gurbani that talk about Charran

gur kae charan man mehi dhiaae |

Meditate within your mind on the Guru's Feet.

charan kamal kar bohith karathae sehasaa dhookh n biaapai |

Let the Lord's Lotus Feet be your Boat, so that pain and skepticism shall not touch you.

Within these Pangtia the word feet is used, but guru shaibs has no physical feet, the last pangti is saying to let the Feet (charan) be your boat, gurbani is saying about what the Boat in spiritual terms means

sathigur bohith har naav hai kith bidh charriaa jaae |

The Boat of the True Guru is the Name of the Lord. How can we climb on board?

That Naam has different names with in Gurbani, Charran, Unhadh, Shejh Dhun, Kinkiri Shabadh and Guru

When gurbani tells us to make charran our asra (sanctuary/support) it’s talking about Naam

gur saranaaee sukh lehehi anadhin naam dhiaae |1| rehaao |

In the Sanctuary of the Guru, peace is found, meditating on the Naam night and day. ||1||Pause||

naanak naam dhiaaeeai sabhanaa jeeaa kaa aadhaar |4|7|40|

O Nanak, meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the Support of all beings. ||4||7||40||

Edit..

I just wanted to add that this covers Seva of the hands and feet, but not the Mind, this is called Seva of Guru jee, if anyone was wondering what "Gur Kee seva is"

gur kee saevaa kar piraa jeeo har naam dhiaaeae |

Serve the Guru, O my dear soul; meditate on the Lord's Name.

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hehe! love the cult thing! : ) iv oredy got one, its on fb! : P!

and beautiful pangtia G.

everything you say, i agree with.

to add, when guru G said gur ke charan dhoe dhoe preeva, yes, it means akaal purakh. but what about when saad sangat becomes your guru? if u talk to mahapurash, or talk to people who hav spent time with mahapurash, few will say that 'xyz' mahapurash said that saad sangat is their guru. and whoever understands god, is satguru. satpurakh jin jaanya...

washing the feet of the 5 pyaare, and drinking that as charan amrit, is a practice still carried out by asthaans today. and if so many mahapurakh do this, then who are we to say the washing of feet and drinking of that water is wrong? or not right?

each guru that was given the seva, that was a deciple of their guru, drank water off their gurus feet. i.e. bhai lehana ji. each of our gurus done that. firstly, i say, who are to to question that. secondly, i also say, that level of avastha is very high and hard to get to.. so, doing shoe seva, yes thas fine, i agree with u about that.. (i dont see any hard in underneath the sole tho! thas where the naam-amrit is! flows from the bottom of the foot...but nyway.. to each their own.) but restricting the level to which you do jore di seva, and take charan pahul, is only going to restrict the person involved. besides, as iv oready mentioned, our gurus did just what u say is not right to do. i.e. the drinking of water off of gurus feet.

i do agree with you.. i dont see anything wrong in what you have said.. but i see it as more than 'just' that.

please forgiv me.. if not, i myt have to wash n drink ur feet bro! :p

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Lol drink from my feet?? Hell no, only if you knew what my socks smelt like :p

Alias its a common assertion that Guru Shaibs gave charran Pual, but this is false, subsequently its due to this belief that fake sants sadhs and gurus get away with having there congregation do charran pual. But even if these Sadhs didnt, it wouldn’t make it not true per say that Gurus didnt do this. That’s not my argument.

The argument for of idol worship of the Humans body or any Form made from 5 elements is forbidden.

I'll explain why

Bhagat Trilochan Ji says this Body is Maya and any attachment with it is a false activity and will cause you to take rebirth.

goojaree |

Goojaree:

anth kaal jo lashamee simarai aisee chinthaa mehi jae marai |

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

sarap jon val val aoutharai |1|

shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

aree baaee gobidh naam math beesarai | rehaao |

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

anth kaal jo eisathree simarai aisee chinthaa mehi jae marai |

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

baesavaa jon val val aoutharai |2|

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

anth kaal jo larrikae simarai aisee chinthaa mehi jae marai |

At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

sookar jon val val aoutharai |3|

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

anth kaal jo mandhar simarai aisee chinthaa mehi jae marai |

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

praeth jon val val aoutharai |4|

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||

anth kaal naaraaein simarai aisee chinthaa mehi jae marai |

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

badhath thilochan thae nar mukathaa peethanbar vaa kae ridhai basai |5|2|

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

That includes the body of the Gurus, as they gave no extra reverence to their body which was made from 5 elements, why? Because these elements are Nass Waan (ending/not forever)

eaehu sareer sabh mool hai maaeiaa |

This body's source/origin is Maya

dhoojai bhaae bharam bhulaaeiaa |

in love with duality, it is deluded by doubt.

The underlying Message by Guru Jee is detach from All Maya, sukham (spiritual maya) and element based.

Guru Gobind went as far as saying that anyone calling me God would go to Hell

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |

mo ka dhaas thavan kaa jaano | yaa mai bhaedh n ranch pashaano | 32 |

Translation:- "Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

Regard me as a humble servant of the Lord and have no doubt about it."

All this body is, is temporary vessel for the Mind and other Sukam Jeevs (spiritual beings ie Punj choor ect)

Guru Nanak Dev Jee started Sikhi of with 1 (ik oankaar) this is called our Mool (Origin)

mool jaan galaa karae haan laaeae haan |

Speak with those who know the Primal Lord, and renounce your evil ways.

mool n bujhai aapanaa vasath rehee ghar baar |

He does not understand his own origins; the merchandise remains within the door of his own house.

As for Sadh sangat your right about the Reverence of them within Sat Gurus writings, they are called the Beloved ones.

ko aan milaavai aj mai pir mael milaaveae |

If only someone would come today and unite me in Union with my Beloved.

ho jeeo karee this vitto cho khanneeai jo mai piree dhikhaaveae |

I would cut my living body into four pieces for anyone who shows me my Beloved.

But the more you read about Sant kee Mahima the more you will see what the person doing Ustat is asking for, its Darshan, and being gifted Naam. (I haven’t done justice to the greatness of his Beloved, but I hope this shows there reverence within Guru Bani)

Now I'll cover how Guru Shaibs gave Amrit before Guru Gobind left the duty to 5 Piaaria

They gave Amrit from inside by making that person do Shabad Abiaas.

anmrith ras sach anmrith bolee gur poorai anmrith leechai jeeo |3|

The True Essence is Ambrosial Nectar; through the Ambrosial Words of the Perfect Guru, this Amrit is obtained. ||3||

sathigur saev anmrith ras chaakhae |3|

Serving the True Guru, they drink in the Amrit, the Ambrosial Nectar. ||3||

What is Guru Ke Seva

gur kee saevaa kar piraa jeeo har naam dhiaaeae |

Serve the Guru, O my dear soul; meditate on the Lord's Name.

If we call our selfs the Followers of the Immaculate Guru, and we want to be pleasing to them

saa saevaa keethee safal hai jith sathigur kaa man mannae |

Fruitful and rewarding is that service, which is pleasing to the Guru's Mind.

What is that Service

jo saas giraas dhiaaeae maeraa har har so gurasikh guroo man bhaavai |

One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.

Alias, the message of Guru sahib from the day they started preaching was to detach from Maya and give no reverence to the living world as it is Naas Waan (ending) that included his and our physical body, they always attached Gods children to their Mool (origin) which is Vaheguru, and never themselves. As this is the only Eternal Pursuit.

sathagur sach prabh niramalaa sabadh milaavaa hoe |1| rehaao |

The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||

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