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Lol drink from my feet?? Hell no, only if you knew what my socks smelt like :p

Alias its a common assertion that Guru Shaibs gave charran Pual, but this is false, subsequently its due to this belief that fake sants sadhs and gurus get away with having there congregation do charran pual. But even if these Sadhs didnt, it wouldn’t make it not true per say that Gurus didnt do this. That’s not my argument.

What makes you think Charan di Pahul is false? Any historical doc you got to say this?

The argument for of idol worship of the Humans body or any Form made from 5 elements is forbidden.

Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj calls shastar his Pir (saints) Shastar di Puja takes places. Also Satguru says Khalsa is my pure form.

I'll explain why

Bhagat Trilochan Ji says this Body is Maya and any attachment with it is a false activity and will cause you to take rebirth.

This body can be made into maya and it can be made into Khalsa, like Satguru says.

That includes the body of the Gurus, as they gave no extra reverence to their body which was made from 5 elements, why? Because these elements are Nass Waan (ending/not forever)

Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj body was not found after Maharaj departed this earth. Also Sikhs bowed to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj. He could have very easily told the Sikhs to bow to Shabad Guru, by writing down Sri Mool Mantar, but Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj was bowed too and his body was held in reverence.

Guru Gobind went as far as saying that anyone calling me God would go to Hell

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |

mo ka dhaas thavan kaa jaano | yaa mai bhaedh n ranch pashaano | 32 |

Translation:- "Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

Regard me as a humble servant of the Lord and have no doubt about it."

You bettter check those translations because Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj says he is the Lord, as the Lord took the fifth form This is written in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj.

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Some are not understanding where Mat Pul Rai is coming from. This is the problem we have on internet, as its difficult to explain so something in sentences as one would like, thus leading to different interpretations.

One has to read between the lines in order to understand what is being, although it may look like something else. I understand what is being said.

When mat pul rai says idol worshipping he does not mean the Shastars. Its not rocket science, he means humans. Instead of going into deep explanations and making Sikhi sound complicated, its simple that we should not worship people.

Thus the trend of fake people who call them sants. There are sants and mahapursh. But he is not denying that, he is simply saying the fake ones that exist. Why the on earth would anybody want to drink their feets dirty water when they can take amrit or may have taken amrit. What is there higher than taking amrit?

Therefore sants, mahapursh are here to help and guide us and give them the respect for that, but they are not god, even they say that and always guide one to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, whom are our Maharaj ji, the real ones from whom we should be getting our blessings from. This is why Guru Gobind Singh ji left us with Maharaj ji and not a human to bow down to, so we dont get misled and that we worship Waheguru, and work towards taking amrit.

Well that's my thinking anyways.

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When our Gurus referred to idolatry in terms of the worship of inert stones, I wonder if they were also referencing the issue on a deeper level, i.e. the worship of Man? We see in this modern world how people fall over themselves to worship individuals, i.e. either "religious" figures or entertainers such as actors, singers, etc. We only have to look at India to see the kind of mad devotion that someone like A. Bachchan inspires in people. Away from India, the western world is obsessed with celebrity and a need to place people on pedestals and elevate them to undeserved heights.

In terms of our community and our faith, we can see how, for example, our elders have given encouragement to various babeh and "Gurus" over the years. Not content to view someone as a simple holy man with a spiritual outlook and leave it at that, these fanatical followers begin to believe their particular baba is God. If we were a bit more discerning or even suspicious of anyone who claimed to have a connection to God, we wouldn't be in half the mess we're currently mired in. But anyway a bit OT.

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Some are not understanding where Mat Pul Rai is coming from. This is the problem we have on internet, as its difficult to explain so something in sentences as one would like, thus leading to different interpretations.

One has to read between the lines in order to understand what is being, although it may look like something else. I understand what is being said.

When mat pul rai says idol worshipping he does not mean the Shastars. Its not rocket science, he means humans. Instead of going into deep explanations and making Sikhi sound complicated, its simple that we should not worship people.

Thus the trend of fake people who call them sants. There are sants and mahapursh. But he is not denying that, he is simply saying the fake ones that exist. Why the on earth would anybody want to drink their feets dirty water when they can take amrit or may have taken amrit. What is there higher than taking amrit?

Therefore sants, mahapursh are here to help and guide us and give them the respect for that, but they are not god, even they say that and always guide one to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, whom are our Maharaj ji, the real ones from whom we should be getting our blessings from. This is why Guru Gobind Singh ji left us with Maharaj ji and not a human to bow down to, so we dont get misled and that we worship Waheguru, and work towards taking amrit.

Well that's my thinking anyways.

This is exactly what i mean

When our Gurus referred to idolatry in terms of the worship of inert stones, I wonder if they were also referencing the issue on a deeper level, i.e. the worship of Man? We see in this modern world how people fall over themselves to worship individuals, i.e. either "religious" figures or entertainers such as actors, singers, etc. We only have to look at India to see the kind of mad devotion that someone like A. Bachchan inspires in people. Away from India, the western world is obsessed with celebrity and a need to place people on pedestals and elevate them to undeserved heights.

In terms of our community and our faith, we can see how, for example, our elders have given encouragement to various babeh and "Gurus" over the years. Not content to view someone as a simple holy man with a spiritual outlook and leave it at that, these fanatical followers begin to believe their particular baba is God. If we were a bit more discerning or even suspicious of anyone who claimed to have a connection to God, we wouldn't be in half the mess we're currently mired in. But anyway a bit OT.

Thats true, But Guru Shaibs have said there are Balahaar to anyone who has Met God, and are worthy of worship/seva, called sant ke seva but that Sant, Mahapurkh would never allow his/her worship to be done, much like Sant Kartar Singh walked out of the Gurdwara, when they started doing Jakaras when he walked in, when he was asked why did you walk out, he replied No man should be praised in the court of the Lord. So we should be wary of anyone who allows them selves to be bowed down to.

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Thats true, But Guru Shaibs have said there are Balahaar to anyone who has Met God, and are worthy of worship/seva, called sant ke seva but that Sant, Mahapurkh would never allow his/her worship to be done, much like Sant Kartar Singh walked out of the Gurdwara, when they started doing Jakaras when he walked in, when he was asked why did you walk out, he replied No man should be praised in the court of the Lord. So we should be wary of anyone who allows them selves to be bowed down to.

Wow, if only all sants and holy men followed the example of Sant Kartar Singh.

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When mat pul rai says idol worshipping he does not mean the Shastars. Its not rocket science, he means humans. Instead of going into deep explanations and making Sikhi sound complicated, its simple that we should not worship people.

This is what he said:

The argument for of idol worship of the Humans body or any Form made from 5 elements is forbidden.

The premises need to come to the conclusion. On many untrue premises he tried to make a conclusion. Especially denying Charan di pahul. You might not see this as rocket science, but others do. People like to be selective when making arguments....ignoring the info that dissolves their views.

If someone wants to say don't worship fake Sant's then you can do this by having supporting premises that come to this conclusion. In Sikhi the premises and the outcome are important, but the premise's are more important than the outcome.

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This is blatent ninda to say Guru ji didn't give charan pahul. It doesn't need to be mentioned in gurbani, because gurbani is mainly focused on internal and uniting jeev with akal.

You've obviously been brainwashed, I figured out which group and person you follow, and you confirmed this by PM. I think it's only fair that I leave it upto you if you wish to share this with the rest of cyber sangat. Look at akj and other sampradas, so many differences, but they all - these jathas, taksaals, smarada ALL believe guru sahib gave charan pahul, only one easily brainwashed would believe otherwise if told by a new "sant" or "gurmukh" or whatever. I sent you a couple of long pms talking in detail about certain avasthas, one example was unhad shabad. I showed you how sounds like bells and drums etc are yogmat anhad shabads and nothing to do with gurmat. You had no answer for this because your group believes these to be real anhad shabads. I still had respect for your group because you spend time doing naam simran, but distorting history such as this, that's unacceptable!

Next you'll say khanda bate di amrit was created after guru gobind singh ji. To get FULL udhaar and reach top most avastha, one has to become sikh of guru sahib through amrit. Read first ang of guru granth sahib and you’ll see “gurprasad” only with guru’s grace does one fully realise waheguru. In Guru Nanak's (and following guru sahibaan) time charan pahul was given, then guru sahib would place their hand on head (this shows if it’s ok for guru sahib to place hand on head then it’s also ok for guru roop punj pyare to do the same, but that’s a different topic), some gursikhs instantly became brahmgyani! others had to do their own kmayee, it was upto guru sahib how much kirpa he did during amrit shakuona. Guru Gobind Singh just changed the marada, because gurugadi next was going to larivaar saroop Guru Granth Sahib ji.

This is a childish argument about not worshipping punj tat, whatever that thing where Satguru’s jot resides that becomes pure amrit and worthy of bowing down to, whether it was in body form or now in granth form. Guru sahib would dip his toe in bowl of water, and that was enough to turn water into amrit. Then guru sahib would do drirta of naam by however much kirpaa he wanted to do. Some would get to stage of automatic simran, while some would reach top most avastha straightaway.

Now about charan in gurbani, I "suggest" you read "charan kamal ji mauj" by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, even though I know you wont. So I'll explain a little here. Having darshan of charan means 1st proper darshan of waheguru. Gursikhs should know that waheguru is beyond punj tat (so no phyiscal feet), so having darshan of god's feet is a magnificent prakaash. Reaching this avastha means you have chance of meeting waheguru fully. When guru sahib does kirpa and allows gursikh to see charans of waheguru then anand at that time becomes unbearable. The prakash is this bright:

ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਰ ਉਜਾਰਾ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਭਰਮੁ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ॥੧॥

Chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the light of millions of suns shines forth, and the darkness of doubt is dispelled. ||1||

In sikh deras, which do not follow gumart, you cannot see praakaash of this magnitude, normally prakaash in deras is more dull and nowhere near as bright.

About SEEING charan:

ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਸੀ ਦਰਸ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਪੇਖਉ ਥਾਨ ਸਬਾਏ

I thirst for His Feet, and I long for the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; I look for Him everywhere.

Guru Sahib describing the beauty of charan kamal in sukhmani sahib:

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਅਨੂਪ

His Lotus Feet are incomparably beautiful.

When gurbani talks about washing charan and drinking in them, practically this means after jot vigaas has happened and you can see prakash of akal purkahs/guru’s charan within, then washing the feet is doing swaas swaas simran and drinking the amrit while the anand keeps on increasing.

Also remember many times saadh, sant in gurbani refers to guru sahib.

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@Mat Pulo Rai, when u say five elements what do you mean? Do you mean fire, air, ether, earth and water? Or five evils? or something else?

All the universe is made from the 5 elements, so everything.

The Mool of Maya is Such and the Mool of the 5 elements is Maya. So everything you can see is Maya, Guru is above Maya and cannot be reached by Kaal/Maya, this is called Joth/Unhadh

Remember Guru Shiabs Joth traveled from one body to another, and that same Jooth is with in Sat Guru now, hence we give sat kaar to the form that Guru has taken, but not in idol worshipped.

I think people are misinterpreting me, Of cource you belive Guru Granth Shaib is your Sat Guru, as the Light (Joth) of Vaheguru is within the Bani, but if people believe that Guru Shaibs told us to idol worship them in physical form, your wrong, the love for Vaheguru is of the Mun and Vaheguru, the body has no relevance apart from being a vessel, guru shaibs is saying detach from Maya and come back to your true home which is above Maya. Cant be any clearer than this.

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