Sargun Nirgun Nirankar.

[13Mirch]

Can anyone please explain to me the concepts of Sargun and Nirgun please?

[N30S1NGH]

Whole foundation and theology of Sikhism is based on concept of Sargun and Nirgun:

In Sikhism god is considered to have two forms.

One form is called nirgun(non existent original/supreme blissful Consciousness/transcendental meditative state[anubhav parkash])

Second form is consider sargun state of God which occurs when nirgun orginal state of God transcedents its attributes into three sub forms. 1) physical form- avatars ie- our guru's of this age of iron and previous ages/karak bhramgyanis and 2) shabad form of God in sikhi context- Gurmantar, Mala Mantar/Mool Mantar/Bij Mantar/Satnaam Paraporbla mantra which explains attributes of God act as an carrier for soul merge back to its source- nirgun. 3) Sargun pasara(vairat roop/whole creation) form of Vahiguroo- Creator is infused in its creation-like fragrance in the flower.

There are two main mantras in Sikhism.

1 Gurmantar- Vahiguru.

Vahi (Blissfull/Beautiful/Memerizing) Guru(attribute/person/supreme consicouness of self that brings one consciouness from darkness/ignorance to light/knowledge of God)

2. Mool Mantra- Ikongkar Satnaam Kartapurkh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Morat Ajooni Saibhang Gurparsad ||

Ikongkar- God is one. Ik indicates nirgun form, ong indicates nirgun attributes transcendent itself to sargun (creation/spiritual state/shabda) and kar reminds us of source, which goes back to nirgun form. Kar- Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun

Ikongkar = ( One God Nirgun/Sargun Interconnected/merged with one and another/not seperable)

Satnaam- His name is truth

Kartapurkh- He himself is creator.

Nirbhau- He is without fear.

Nirvair- He does not have any enemy

Akaal Moorat- He is without time, he is exist without shape or form.

Ajooni- Without birth/death

Saibhang- He is light of knowledge

Gurparsad - He can be felt by grace of guru. In Sikh context, blessing of our 11 guru's. In broader context, anyone has felt god and got salvation, with his grace one can also attain salvation and feel god.

If you really wish to go in depth, please read the translations of japji sahib where everything is explained in detailed:

http://www.sikhsanga...must-must-read/

[VanHelsingh]

Finally someone explains this concept in a way I can understand. Thanks.

[N30S1NGH]

I am glad you like it. It's all maharaj kirpa that, i managed to comprehend concept of sargun and nirgun. Hopefully, one day i can follow foot steps of our sant/bhramgyanis who have practically walk the path laid by guru sahiban.

It's amazing once one have understood concept of sargun and nirgun, you start understanding gurbani from sargun and nirgun context and everything make sense, and not take simple black and white approach of things, create further duality in already dualistic mind.

[Bijla Singh]

Without stirring up any futile debate (with no intentions to offend anybody) this is my understanding of it:

In Sikhism god is considered to have two forms

Explaining “Akal Moorat” you wrote that He is without any shape or form. In fact, God does not have two forms. He is formless i.e. has no shape, size, color, gender etc. Gurbani says: “Roop Na Rekh Na Rang Kich...” Nirgun and Sargun can be called aspects but not forms or phases.

One form is called nirgun(non existent original/supreme blissful Consciousness/transcendental meditative state[anubhav parkash])

Nirgun does not mean non-existent because God always exists. He has no beginning or end. He is forever and ever. God is always Consciousness, transcendental, immanent and in blissful state. None of His attributes change ever.

In six Indian philosophies, God is considered to have two phases: Nirgun (no attributes) and Sargun (full of attributes). However, in Gurmat such is not the case. Waheguru always remains Nirgun which means without the influence of attributes meaning that any attribute cannot overpower or influence Waheguru to cause change of state. Nirgun, in Gurbani, does not refer to physical non-existence of attributes but to non-existence of influence. This is why He is called Alep, Nirlep, Agochar, Apar, Niranjan etc. When God punishes or showers love His state of being remains the same and He does not act under the influence of these attributes. He remains Graceful and Love. In Gurbani, Sargun in context of Waheguru means treasure of attributes which is also referred to as “Guni-Nidhan” or “Guntaas”. Therefore, God always remains Nirgun and Sargun i.e. He is full of attributes but remains Nirgun (without the influence of attributes). This means that unlike Semitic God who gets angry, annoyed etc. Sikh God remains Truth (unchanging) in the state of Bliss or called Vigas, Vismaad etc.

In Gurbani, God is transcendent and immanent meaning that He is present in the creation but not limited by it. He is Omnipresent but not identical to creation and is perfect without it. Beginning or end of creation makes no impact on Him for He is Truth and always full of attributes.

Some philosophy systems consider Sargun to be the creation. Gurbani uses this term in the same context at some places but not for Waheguru. Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Vir Singh make it clear in their books that only Nirgun (full of attributes and yet without their influence) worship is accepted in Sikhi not Sargun (creation). One can read Guru Granth Sahib Vishavkosh by Ratan Singh Jaggi to read a simple basic explanation of it.

Second form is consider sargun state of God which occurs when nirgun orginal state of God transcedents its attributes into three sub forms. 1) physical form- avatars ie- our guru's of this age of iron and previous ages/karak bhramgyanis and 2) shabad form of God in sikhi context- Gurmantar, Mala Mantar/Mool Mantar/Bij Mantar/Satnaam Paraporbla mantra which explains attributes of God act as an carrier for soul merge back to its source- nirgun. 3) Sargun pasara(vairat roop/whole creation) form of Vahiguroo- Creator is infused in its creation-like fragrance in the flower.

God cannot be divided into any states or sub-states. He is One and always remains so. Your third category (whole creation) covers the first one (physical form). So your explanation is not clear. If you are using Sargun in terms of creation then Shabad does not fall in this category because Shabad does not have any beginning or end and is in union with Waheguru. I am not referring to Shabad as a script or alphabets. Shabad is the creative power of Waheguru and will never cease to exist. Baba Hari Singh Randhawa during discussion on this subject said “Shabad Di Pooja Nirgun Pooja Hai” (Worship of Shabad is the Worship of Nirgun).

Waheguru’s Jot (light) shines fully in Satguru while prophets/avtaars/messengers have limited powers granted by Him. The entire creation is present in Waheguru and Waheguru is present in it but they are not identical. Creation is simply His play which has come into existence many times and has been destroyed many times. But Waheguru has remained the same in every respect.

Nirmala scholars and others heavily influenced by Vedanta have diluted Gurmat’s viewpoint of God but keeping Gurbani as the basis, one can see clearly that the Sikh concept of God is wholly distinct and unique. Guru Rakha

[Jonny101]

That is an amazing post Bijla Singh Jee. In Jaap Sahib it says in the 3rd chand Anek hai| phir ek hai| can this refer to Sargun (anek hai) and Nirgun (phir ek hai).

Anek hai can refer to the fact that Vaheguru exists in all his creation as a result he is anek yet he is ek in nirgun form.

[Bijla Singh]

In Jaap Sahib it says in the 3rd chand Anek hai| phir ek hai| can this refer to Sargun (anek hai) and Nirgun (phir ek hai).

Yes, Anek refers to His presence in the creation. His light shines within everything. Nothing in the creation has an independent existence. This is contrary to some Indian philosophies and Semitic traditions. Wherever Gurbani states that He is everything, it refers to His Omnipresense and should never be taken literally to mean that He is identical with the creation. Guru Sahib says that being Omnipresent He does not get divided but remains One and the same.

ਖੇਲ ਖੇਲ ਅਖੇਲ ਖੇਲਨ ਅੰਤ ਕੋ ਫਿਰਿ ਏਕ ॥ 81॥

Just like Gurbani, Jaap Sahib calls God “Avdhoot”.

ਜੱਤ੍ਰ ਤੱਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਰਾਜਹੀ ਅਵਧੂਤ ਰੂਪ ਰਸਾਲ ॥ 79॥

“Avdhoot” is synonymous for Ateet, Nirlep, Niralam etc. It means that wherever God resides, He is unattached to or unbounded by it and remains Vismaad or Ik Rass. Waheguru always has attributes. Here is the proof:

ਗੁਨ ਗਨ ਉਦਾਰ ॥

and

ਗੁਨ ਗਨ ਪ੍ਰਨਾਮ ॥

Many influenced by Vedanta claim that Waheguru does not have maya in Him and by this they mean that Waheguru is devoid of maya in literal sense but Jaap Sahib refutes this notion.

ਨਮੋ ਰਾਜਸੰ ਤਾਮਸੰ ਸਾਂਤ ਰੂਪੇ ॥

One can read interpretation by Bhai Veer Singh and Pandit Narayan Singh which clearly states that Waheguru is the source and creator of all the attributes as well as maya. This is my limited understanding. May Guru Sahib bless us to understand Gurbani more clearly and purely. Guru Rakha

[chatanga]

that makes very good reading for people like myself who cant explain nirgun and sargun properly. I think this is the first thing that young Sikhs should learn about because we are always asked " what is God like? " etc by Sikhs and non Sikhs.

Nice posts Neo SIngh Ji and Bijla Singh ji.

[N30S1NGH]

Good to see you bijla singh again after long time...i hope i can take a long break like you did from online to explore and research sikhi further..please do ardas for me that i can have same passion (in actually doing doing naam simran) as i have in doing vichar or sometimes tu tu mein online. This is vechar, its never meant for debate. Below its all gyan from mahapursh audio katha/books on gurbani/gurmat- nirgun and sargun.

Explaining “Akal Moorat” you wrote that He is without any shape or form. In fact, God does not have two forms. He is formless i.e. has no shape, size, color, gender etc.Gurbani says: “Roop Na Rekh Na Rang Kich...” Nirgun and Sargun can be called aspects but not forms or phases.

Akaal Moraat is visheshan or indication of Nirgun Paratma. Nirgun paratama rightly so, is without any shape or form. In sikh theology, the reason- Vahiguroo is considered have two forms is because of sargun and nirgun da milaap in mool mantar and jaap sahib, sri akaal ustat sahib.

In the japji sahib katha done by taksali mahapursh both gyani thakur singh ji katha and sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale (steek of japji sahib ) have mentioned ikongkar (sargun and nirgun da milaap). Just look at the transition in "ikongkar" - it starts with ik(nirgun) ong(sargun) then kar - kar(sargun and nirgun milaap) sargun reminds us of source, which goes back to nirgun form. Kar- Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun (Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun)

The reason i mentioned nirgun and sargun are forms, its because when there was no universe, it was only nirgun in its nirvakalp samadhi, shabad gyan. But when nirgun transcedented most of its attributes via shabada (ong), sargun paratma(avtars), sargun pasara(vairaat), shabada with attributes of nirgun was created.

The fact its nirgun attributes are being transcedented..i don't think aspect word does justice.

Gurbani does full milaap of nirgun and sargun. So there is no duality and its advait, its one. There are many gurbani shabads which talk about nirgun and saroop of vahiguroo (be it atamgyan/bhramgyan, upma of vairaat, nirgun vahiguroo- jaap sahib), shabad explaining both nirgun and sargun roop of ikongkar. If nirgun is ocean, sargun is water in the ocean..there is no difference. Nirgun and Sargun are both part of each other:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥

breham dheesai breham suneeai eaek eaek vakhaaneeai ||

ਆਤਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥

aatham pasaaraa karanehaaraa prabh binaa nehee jaaneeai ||

Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap, Aaapie Kiya Nanaka Apaie Fer Jaap ||

Nirgun Tae Sargun Thiya (From Nirgun vahiguroo, sargun came).

Ek moorat(i) anek darsan koon roop anek|| (Jaap)

Thou, the One Entity, appearest as Many creating innumerable forms.

Khel khel akhel khelan ant ko phir(i) ek||81||

After playing the world-drama, when Thou wilt stop the play, Thou wilt be the same One again.81.

Anek hain|| Phir ek hain||43|| (Jaap Sahib)

Sri Akaal Ustat

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਆਗ ਉਠੈ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

जैसे एक आग ते कनूका कोटि आग उठै निआरे निआरे हुइ कै फेरि आग मै मिलाहिंगे ॥

Just as millions of sparks are created from the fire; although they are different entities, they merge in the same fire.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਤੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਤ ਹੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਫੇਰ ਧੂਰਿ ਹਿ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ

जैसे एक धूरि ते अनेक धूरि पूरत है धूरि के कनूका फेर धूरि हि समाहिंगे

Just as from of waves are created on the surface of the big rivers and all the waves are called water.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਨਦ ਤੇ ਤੰਰਗ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਜਤ ਹੈਂ ਪਾਨਿ ਕੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਬੈ ਪਾਨਿ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

जैसे एक नद ते तंरग कोटि उपजत हैं पानि के तरंग सबै पानि ही कहाहिंगे ॥

Similarly the animate and inanimate objects come out of the Supreme Lord; having been created from the same Lord, they merge in the same Lord. 17.87.

//One form is called nirgun(non existent original/supreme blissful Consciousness/transcendental meditative state[anubhav parkash]//

Nirgun does not mean non-existent because God always exists. He has no beginning or end. He is forever and ever. God is always Consciousness, transcendental, immanent and in blissful state. None of His attributes change ever.

In six Indian philosophies, God is considered to have two phases: Nirgun (no attributes) and Sargun (full of attributes). However, in Gurmat such is not the case.Waheguru always remains Nirgun which means without the influence of attributes meaning that any attribute cannot overpower or influence Waheguru to cause change of state.Nirgun, in Gurbani, does not refer to physical non-existence of attributes but to non-existence of influence. This is why He is called Alep, Nirlep, Agochar, Apar, Niranjan etc.When God punishes or showers love His state of being remains the same and He does not act under the influence of these attributes. He remains Graceful and Love. In Gurbani,Sargun in context of Waheguru means treasure of attributes which is also referred to as “Guni-Nidhan” or “Guntaas”. Therefore, God always remains Nirgun and Sargun i.e. He isfull of attributes but remains Nirgun (without the influence of attributes). This means that unlike Semitic God who gets angry, annoyed etc. Sikh God remains Truth (unchanging)in the state of Bliss or called Vigas, Vismaad etc.

In Gurbani, God is transcendent and immanent meaning that He is present in the creation but not limited by it. He is Omnipresent but not identical to creation and is perfectwithout it. Beginning or end of creation makes no impact on Him for He is Truth and always full of attributes.

See the problem with english, its pretty limited..for lack of better word i use non-existent because for naked eye- nirgun is similiar to non existent as their surti cannot feel...the vibration of paratma which is always there it just not attuned to it.I think better word to describe it as - anubhav parkash of nirgun- sat chit anand svaroop.As i mentioned earlier above with nirgun and sargun ekta wale shabads. Nirgun and sargun are same.

Sargun is reflection of Nirgun just like how picture in mirror is an reflection of self.. because nirgun transcedented its attributes when this whole universe was created..creation came from creator regardless of devta's shortcoming.

If sun is nirgun, its lights and its ray is sargun. If one tries to hide the light/its ray or alter the light or rays make prism reflection out of it, that does not change the"fact" light/ray of sun animating from its direct source(sun).

Nirgun will show its attributes via sargun, when sargun merged back to its source (nirgun). There is no attribute to show but that does not mean nirgun does not have attributes,that just means there is nothing to show that point, if everything merged back to nirgun paratma (everything sargun pasara, avtars, shabads, attributes), there is nothing..don't confuse nothing with shuniya...its not shuniya - its not annihilation, merging with mahanand sagar can never be annihalation. Please read previous discussion with kulbir singh - http://www.tapoban.o...p?1,4508,page=1

Even labels anubhav parkash and sat chit anand svaroop applies to nirgun vahiguroo as long as sargun exist, as soon as sargun merges back to its sources (everything sargun pasara, avtars, shabads, attributes) its nirvakalp samadhi..we cannot describe, there is no surti left to describe nirgun. That's why bhramgyanis have best tried to describe closely nirgun - "Nirvakalap samadhi" "Shabad Gyan" "Anubhav Parkash".

Some philosophy systems consider Sargun to be the creation. Gurbani uses this term in the same context at some places but not for Waheguru. Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Vir Singh make it clear in their books that only Nirgun (full of attributes and yet without their influence) worship is accepted in Sikhi not Sargun (creation). One can read Guru Granth Sahib Vishavkosh by Ratan Singh Jaggi to read a simple basic explanation of it.

Sorry, i can only refer to our previous discussion on this matter:

Readers can make up their mind from there.

http://www.sikhaware...-when-they-die/

ਜਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਥਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਬਨੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੧॥੫੧॥

जले हरी ॥ थले हरी ॥ उरे हरी ॥ बने हरी ॥१॥५१॥

The Lord is in water. The Lord is on land. The Lord is in the heart. The Lord is in the forests.1.51.

ਗਿਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਫੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਛਿਤੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਨਭੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥੫੨॥

गिरे हरी ॥ गुफे हरी ॥ छिते हरी ॥ नभे हरी ॥२॥५२॥

The Lord is in he mountains. The Lord is in the cave. The Lord is in he earth. The Lord is in the sky. 2.52.

ਈਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਿਮੀ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥੫੩॥

ईहां हरी ॥ उहां हरी ॥ जिमी हरी ॥ जमा हरी ॥३॥५३॥

The Lord is in here. The Lord is there. The Lord is in the earth. The Lord is in the sky. 3.53.

ਅਲੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦੋਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖ ਹਰੀ ॥੪॥੫੪॥

अलेख हरी ॥ अभेख हरी ॥ अदोख हरी ॥ अद्वैख हरी ॥४॥५४॥

The Lord is Ac countless. The Lord is guiseless. The Lord is blemishless. The Lord is sans duality.

Here in Sri Akaal Ustat sahib- Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj gives example of vahiguroo in sargun vairaat roop. Right after that gurbani couplets, guru maharaj gives updesh importance of nirgun, as one must NOT get stuck in sargun only, as maharaj's birthi while reciting this couplet which is sargun goes from sargun into nirgun vahiguroo then again maharaj birthi naturally go back to sargun vairaat saroop dhyaan to show us again going back to nirgun parbhram for 16,000 times of tuhi tuhi. This is classic beautiful example of how birthi gets subtle/subtle from sargun goes into nirgun..anyway enjoy this..!

ਜਲਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਥਲਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਨਦਿਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਨਦਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੩॥੬੩॥

जलस तुहीं ॥ थलस तुहीं ॥ नदिस तुहीं ॥ नदस तुहीं ॥१३॥६३॥

O Lord! Thou art water. O Lord! Thou art dry land.O Lord! Thou art the stream. O Lord ! Thou art the Ocean. 13.63

ਬ੍ਰਿਛਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਪਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਛਿਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਉਰਧਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੪॥੬੪॥

ब्रिछस तुहीं ॥ पतस तुहीं ॥ छितस तुहीं ॥ उरधस तुहीं ॥१४॥६४॥

O Lord! Thou art the tree. O Lord! Thou art the leaf. O Lord ! Thou art the earth. O Lord ! Thou art the sky. 14. 64.

ਭਜਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥ ਭਜਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥ ਰਟਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥ ਠਟਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥੧੫॥੬੫॥

भजस तुअं ॥ भजस तुअं ॥ रटस तुअं ॥ ठटस तुअं ॥१५॥६५॥

O Lord! I meditate on Thee. O Lord! I meditate on Thee.O Lord! I repeat Thy Name. O Lord ! I worship Thee. 15.65.

ਜਿਮੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਮਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਮਕਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੬॥੬੬॥

जिमी तुहीं ॥ जमा तुहीं ॥ मकी तुहीं ॥ मका तुहीं ॥१६॥६६॥

O Lord! Thou art the earth. O Lord! Thou art the sky.O Lord ! Thou art the Owner of the house. O Lord! Thou art the house Thyself. 16.66.

ਅਭੂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਅਭੈ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਅਛੂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਅਛੈ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੭॥੬੭॥

अभू तुहीं ॥ अभै तुहीं ॥ अछू तुहीं ॥ अछै तुहीं ॥१७॥६७॥

O Lord! Thou art birthless. O Lord Thou art Fearless.O Lord ! Thou art Untouchabe. O Lord ! Thou art Invincible.17.67.

ਜਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਗਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਮਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੮॥੬੮॥

जतस तुहीं ॥ ब्रतस तुहीं ॥ गतस तुहीं ॥ मतस तुहीं ॥१८॥६८॥

O Lord! Thou art the celibacy. O Lord! Thou art the means for a virtuous deed. O Lord! Thou art the salvation. O Lord! Thou art the Redemption. 18.68.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੯॥੬੯॥

तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥१९॥६९॥

O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything Thou art the salvation. O Lord ! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. 19.69.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੨੦॥੭੦॥

तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥२०॥७०॥

O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything art Thou, Eveything Thou art. O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. 20.70.

ਬਿਸਨੁਪਦ ਪੁੰਨੀਆ ਗੀਤ ਸਾਨੀ ਤਰਹ ਦੂਜੀ ॥

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰੂਪ ਹਰੀ ਕੇ, ਉਪਾਸਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਕੋ ॥

The Sargun and Nirgun are two forms of Hari, for devotes these two types of worship are acceptable

ਭਗਤਿ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਭਗਤਾ, ਉਪਾਸਕ ਉਭਯ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ॥

Bhagat = Sargun da upashak, Gyani = Nirgun da upashak, both of these two types of devotes are Pareshvar's shardaloo's (faithful)

(page 423, vol 2 of the sarbloh granth tika)

//Second form is consider sargun state of God which occurs when nirgun orginal state of God transcedents its attributes into three sub forms. 1) physical form- avatars ie- ourguru's of this age of iron and previous ages/karak bhramgyanis and 2) shabad form of God in sikhi context- Gurmantar, Mala Mantar/Mool Mantar/Bij Mantar/Satnaam Paraporblamantra which explains attributes of God act as an carrier for soul merge back to its source- nirgun. 3) Sargun pasara(vairat roop/whole creation) form of Vahiguroo- Creator isinfused in its creation-like fragrance in the flower.//

God cannot be divided into any states or sub-states. He is One and always remains so. Your third category (whole creation) covers the first one (physical form). So your explanation is not clear. If you are using Sargun in terms of creation then Shabad does not fall in this category because Shabad does not have any beginning or end and is in union with Waheguru. I am not referring to Shabad as a script or alphabets. Shabad is the creative power of Waheguru and will never cease to exist. Baba Hari Singh Randhawa

during discussion on this subject said “Shabad Di Pooja Nirgun Pooja Hai” (Worship of Shabad is the Worship of Nirgun).Waheguru’s Jot (light) shines fully in Satguru while prophets/avtaars/messengers have limited powers granted by Him. The entire creation is present in Waheguru and Waheguru ispresent in it but they are not identical. Creation is simply His play which has come into existence many times and has been destroyed many times. But Waheguru has remained the same in every respect.

Nirmala scholars and others heavily influenced by Vedanta have diluted Gurmat’s viewpoint of God but keeping Gurbani as the basis, one can see clearly that the Sikh concept of God is wholly distinct and unique. Guru Rakha

Off course it cannot be divided into states or sub states- For lack of better word i used sub states but the reality is- attributes of nirgun paratma are part of nirgun paratma. It's not part of "SATAN". Whole purpose of gurbani is to make our dualistic mind to non dualitistic(advait)

Creator is infused in its creation:

Ey netaroh mereho Har tum meh jot dhari har bin avar n dekhaho koyi||

Har bin avar n dekhaho koyi nadari Har nihaliya||

Eh viss sansar tum dekhdey ehu Harka roop hay Har roop nadari aya||

Gurparsaadi bujhiya ja vekha Ha ikk hay Har bin avar n koyi||

Kahay Nanak eh nettar andh se Satgur miliye dib drishti hoyi||36|| (Anand Sahib)

This is very important:

In gurbani, updesh its given to both surti at different stages/gurbani supports meta reality

For Jaigaso (so bairaag and focus on nirgun paratma via shabad/sargun avtars stays)-

Gurbani has given perception and updesh that this sansar is mithiya, everything is mithiya and sargun pasara is mere play.

Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela||

There are also may shabads which talks about how this whole world is mithiya and maya.

For more advance seekers and Bhramgyani avastha:

This sansar is hari roop- sargun and nirgun are binded as beads are binded in rosary. Everything came from nirgun- only one- In bhramgyan there is no duality- its all one roop.,Advait roop (non duality).

So which one is satya?

They are both sat at different levels of surti. At jaigaso level, perception of this sansar is mithiya is sat. At advance seeker and Bhramgyan level, perception of this sansar roop being hari roop is sat.You see, our surti in nature is sargun saroop, whole journey is to transcedent our sargun saroop surti to nirgun paratma (advait).

Think of it, as We are in bicycle, body is our surti/atma- two wheels are shabad and sargun vahiguroo(vairaat roop). They are connected but independent at the same time.

Shabad and sargun saroop of vahiguroo (shud satogun) are two wheels which will take us to nirgun.

To start with journey on bicycle, most of riders require assistance of both wheels to ride as our surti itself is sargun, as our surti transcedent/reaches half stage/final stage start becoming becoming more more nirgun that surti only need to ride on one wheel (shabad-gyan).

However at half away or even close to finish stage sometimes rider require assistance of both wheels (shabad and sargun vahiguroo-kirpa), sometimes rider gets lost and sway from track then sargun saroop vahiguroo himself does kirpa on this jeava to give him darshan/mukth avastha and join jaigaso surti with nirgun.

As sri sarbloh granth says:

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰੂਪ ਹਰੀ ਕੇ, ਉਪਾਸਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਕੋ ॥

The Sargun and Nirgun are two forms of Hari, for devotes these two types of worship are acceptable

ਭਗਤਿ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਭਗਤਾ, ਉਪਾਸਕ ਉਭਯ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ॥

Bhagat = Sargun da upashak, Gyani = Nirgun da upashak, both of these two types of devotes are Pareshvar's shardaloo's (faithful)

Sargun bhagti- namaskar to sri guru granth sahib ji, namaskar to all our gurus, namaskar to creation, namaskar to vairaat saroop, namaksar to shastar, namaskar to nishan sahib, namaskar to musical instrument, reading gurbani, doing simran- following shabad with surti, vairaat sargun pasara.

Nirgun bhagti- surti transcedenting automatically towards nirgun, no effort from surti- gyan of shabad/gyan of atma.

To get further reconfirmation, i will be asking baba hari singh randhaywale this very important question-

- Out of 100% for better understanding, how many % of gurmat based on advait (man tu jot saroop hai) and how many % of gurmat based on grace (gurparsad)??

Shabad is the creative power of Waheguru and will never cease to exist. Baba Hari Singh Randhawa during discussion on this subject said “Shabad Di Pooja Nirgun Pooja Hai”(Worship of Shabad is the Worship of Nirgun).

This is very important as well (this is very subtle and important disctincation)

In nirgun, there is only gyan of shabad not shabad itself.

Baba Hari Singh Randhawale rightly said- Shabad Di Pooja Nirgun Pooja Hai” (Worship of Shabad is the Worship of Nirgun).

Worship of shabad at earlier stage/beginning stages is simran( sargun asthohol and sukham roop) and sargun surti transcedenting itself to nirgun birthi) and worship of shabad at bhramgyan stage - gyan of that shabad

Shabad is sargun and shabad gyan is nirgun. Simran stages itself starts from sargun, transcedents slowly towards nirgun.

Even resosance of shabad - dhuni is sargun in shuksham form. However, gyan(anubhav parkash) from that dhuni is nirgun.

At bhramgyan- Birthi/Surti negates akhar shabad/dhuni- sargun vahiguroo shabad, however gyan of that shabad which indicates attributes of Vahiguroo-gyan doesnt get destroyed, birthi/surti resides in gyan of shabad.

Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi |

Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa ||

Please listen to this very informative audio discourse with gurbani references by sant isher singh ji rara sahib which shed more light on this subject-

dhyaan of sakar/sargun at the starting and shabad, dhunis, parkash, dasam dvar are all staying below nirgun parbhram only thing stays in nirgun - gyan of the shabad, anubhav parkash and nirvkalap samadhi.

http://www.sikhroots...an-a-katha.html

Nirmala scholars and others heavily influenced by Vedanta have diluted Gurmat’s viewpoint of God but keeping Gurbani as the basis, one can see clearly that the Sikh concept of God is wholly distinct and unique. Guru Rakha

Please listen to baba hari singh ji randhawale on this point.

I have also tried to clarify as well

http://www.sikhsanga...post__p__536106

[Bijla Singh]

Singh, for me personally, you post gets confusing. Though I understand what you trying to say and it does get difficult to explain it but I have clarified some of your points for general readers to better understand this concept. I considered it necessary for the topic being deep, profound and thought provoking.

Akaal Moraat is visheshan or indication of Nirgun Paratma.

Akaal and Moorat are not adjectives but describe nature of Waheguru. He is beyond time and has a personality. He is an existing living being but beyond time. So you are partly correct that these attributes refer to Nirgun.

Just look at the transition in "ikongkar" - it starts with ik(nirgun) ong(sargun) then kar - kar(sargun and nirgun milaap) sargun reminds us of source, which goes back to nirgun form. Kar- Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun (Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun)

That is one way of looking at it. I am more inclined to Prof. Sahib Singh and Bhai Veer Singh. Ik (numeral) refers to His unity and Oneness, Oang refers to His Brahmn saroop and Kaar refers to Him being Ik Raas or unchanging. This is why I stated that He does not have any phase or form which refers to changing cycles whereas aspect does not. The gist is that One God who is Waheguru is Nirgun and Sargun.

The reason i mentioned nirgun and sargun are forms, its because when there was no universe, it was only nirgun in its nirvakalp samadhi, shabad gyan. But when nirgun transcedented most of its attributes via shabada (ong), sargun paratma(avtars), sargun pasara(vairaat), shabada with attributes of nirgun was created.

The fact its nirgun attributes are being transcedented..i don't think aspect word does justice.

In the opening verses of Gurbani, Waheguru is described as Sat (unchanging) from the beginning of the creation to the end and beyond. This means that whether the creation is there or not, Waheguru remains the same. Therefore, when there is no creation, it is inherent in Him which means God then still is full of attributes and hence Sargun. The change occurs in creation. God cannot be Nirgun only but if you mean Nirgun yet full of attributes then I agree. Sargun aspect means a way of God to reveal Himself. Words form and phase imply that He created something of Himself which was not there before and hence a change occurred. I think you are using the term transcendent wrongly. It means going beyond limits. The correct term you might be thinking of is manifest i.e. He reveals His attributes.

You have provided some quotes from Gurbani which I agree with completely. There is only One God and always remains so. He is like an ocean from which issues forth waves, or a Sun with rays, a seed with qualities of tree inherent in it etc. All these examples are not perfect obviously because nothing can be compared to God but the fact remains that no change occurs in God even when creation starts or ends. He remains One. Whether waves rise high or remain quiet, makes no difference to the water/ocean. Similarly, after the creation ends, all Sargun (creation) qualities merge back in Him and after that He still remains Sargun. Sargun (attributes) do not disappear in oblivion.

I think better word to describe it as - anubhav parkash of nirgun- sat chit anand svaroop.As i mentioned earlier above with nirgun and sargun ekta wale shabads. Nirgun and sargun are same.

He is Anbhav Parkash or Saibanh(g) which refers to Him being Self-Existent. If you mean Sat Chit Anand of Gurmat who is full of Love and attributes then I agree. Vedant version of Sat Chit Anand is not accepted in Gurmat. When you say Nirgun and Sargun are same I see two interpretations. First is: God is Nirgun (without influence of) Sargun (being full of attributes). Second is: creation and God are identical. I think you mean the former. I would disagree with latter because creation is not identical with the Creator. Creator transcends the creation and is perfect without it. If you mean same in terms of union or God being Omnipresent, I agree with you.

Sargun is reflection of Nirgun just like how picture in mirror is an reflection of self.. because nirgun transcedented its attributes when this whole universe was created..creation came from creator regardless of devta's shortcoming.

If sun is nirgun, its lights and its ray is sargun. If one tries to hide the light/its ray or alter the light or rays make prism reflection out of it, that does not change the"fact" light/ray of sun animating from its direct source(sun).

Nirgun will show its attributes via sargun, when sargun merged back to its source (nirgun). There is no attribute to show but that does not mean nirgun does not have attributes,that just means there is nothing to show that point, if everything merged back to nirgun paratma (everything sargun pasara, avtars, shabads, attributes), there is nothing..don't confuse nothing with shuniya...its not shuniya - its not annihilation, merging with mahanand sagar can never be annihalation. Please read previous discussion with kulbir singh

With minor disagreement over choice of words, I agree with your implied meanings. I understand Sunn or Shuniya in Gurmat does not mean nothingness. For others, read Bhai Veer Singh’s interpretation of Mool Mantar.

Your quote from Akaal Ustat proves that God is Omnipresent and creation does not have independent existence. Tuhi Tuhi refers to His light shining forth from everything. It also means that all the attributes in the world have only One source, God. Gurbani has many shabads in the same manner explaining God remaining One and the same yet being everywhere. Gurbani calls it “Sarab Nivasi Sada Alepa” meaning that being everywhere He remains without its influences i.e. Nirgun full of attributes. Gurbani says:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਈ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (223)

Word Niranjan means without the influence of maya.

Gurbani has given perception and updesh that this sansar is mithiya, everything is mithiya and sargun pasara is mere play.

Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela||

There are also may shabads which talks about how this whole world is mithiya and maya.

Singh, it is not clear as to what you mean by mitheya and maya. In terms of Vedant, the world is mitheya i.e. an illusion but Gurmat calls it real for the God is present in it. In Gurmat, mitheya refers to temporariness. The world is not eternal and will end at one point. Maya in Gurmat is anything that makes one forget God. Creation in Gurmat is under the influence of maya (rajo tamo sato) but not maya itself like in Vedant. This is why I believe that Shabad/Gurbani is not Sargun (creation) but Nirgun (without influence of maya). A true Sikh attached to Gurbani practicing Shabad is worshipping Nirgun and will result in union with Nirgun (God). Worship of Sargun (creation) is futile and will not result in union with the Creator.

Shabad and sargun saroop of vahiguroo (shud satogun) are two wheels which will take us to nirgun.

I like the use of term “Shud-Satogun” or pure saintliness attributes. Bhai Randhir Singh also states that sato-gunn of maya are not the same (in power and essence) as God’s pure attributes. In the above statement, if you mean Sargun in terms of attributes (which I think you do) and not in creation, I agree.

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰੂਪ ਹਰੀ ਕੇ, ਉਪਾਸਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਕੋ ॥

The Sargun and Nirgun are two forms of Hari, for devotes these two types of worship are acceptable

I disagree with the English translation. It does not show anywhere in the line that worship is of two types. The correct translation would be: Sargun and Nirgun both aspects are of the same God whose worship (bhakti) for devotees is most beautiful (Neeko). I didn’t translate Roop literally to forms because such results in different meaning which implies a change. In Punjabi, Roop can be used for personality or a being but form in English refers to an independent physical structure.

ਭਗਤਿ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਭਗਤਾ, ਉਪਾਸਕ ਉਭਯ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ॥

Through bhakti of God (ਭਗਤਿ) one becomes Gyani (attains true knowledge of God) and while being Gyani remains a true devotee, such a devotee through bhakti of Hari (God) becomes known or popular. In other word, Sachay Marag Chaldeyan Ustat Karay Jahaan.

In nirgun, there is only gyan of shabad not shabad itself.

Since God is the only Creator, Shabad is inherent in Him. He created the creation from “Eko Kavao” or Shabad. Gurbani also says:

ਉਤਪਤਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ (117)

ਏਕੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਲੋਈ ॥ ਏਕਸੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥7॥ (223)

Since, creation has come forth from The One and the Shabad, it proves that Shabad and God are One and were so prior to creation. Here Shabad refers to His creative power which is one with Him. Keep in mind that since the creation came from Shabad, it proves that Shabad is not Sargun (creation). This is why worship of Shabad is worship of Nirgun. Further, Shabad is not influenced by maya, hence, Nirgun. In addition, when a true Sikh becomes one with God, he becomes free of maya and attains “Sad Jeevan”. This state is called “Udaas” or Sehaj Padd or Turiya Avastha. This makes a Sikh free from any type of bondage. He is merged in Nirgun at that point while being full of virtues and god-like attributes. This is why Shabad practice is Nirgun worship.

Worship of shabad at earlier stage/beginning stages is simran( sargun asthohol and sukham roop) and sargun surti transcedenting itself to nirgun birthi) and worship of shabad at bhramgyan stage - gyan of that shabad

This is contrary to Gurmat. Worship of Shabad is worship of Nirgun regardless of anyone’s surti birti. The change occurs in the devotee whose spiritual state rises above and beyond maya over time but the one being worshipped does not change.

Shabad is sargun and shabad gyan is nirgun. Simran stages itself starts from sargun, transcedents slowly towards nirgun.

When God said “Eko Kavao”, it was not Gyan only. Gyan is dependent on Shabad and cannot exist independently for without Shabad gyan is useless. Alphabets, letters, scripts etc used to pen down the Shabad is Sargun but Shabad itself is Nirgun. Previously quoted Gurbani Shabads prove that Shabad was inherent in God and existing prior to creation. I think this is a separate topic in itself and has been discussed by us many times previously so no need to do it again. We can agree to disagree on this.

To summarize, with some disagreements on Nirgun/Sargun, I agree with you on the most part. This is understandable because it is simply Akath Katha and no words can describe Waheguru fully and more we get close to Him, more Vismaad occurs and one realizes that such an experience can only be felt but not described in any sense. This is why Gursikhs say that the only way to learn Sikhi is to live it by experience. Overall, fruitful discussion and I hope it was beneficial to others. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh