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Guest SinghJi
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Thanks for clearing that up guys. So, just a bit more questions to go in a little in-depth, what about those who were not born in a Sikh family and therefore do not know anything about Sikhi or Naam, is it possible through their actions and choices, they can become reborn as a Sikh?

Khalsa Ji

Baba NAND Singh's biography says that Baba Ji in the previous life were the Nawab of Lucknow (non-Sikh) but owing to their humanitarian and compassionate nature they were born next time as a Gurmukh.

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If an Amritdhari who observes Amritvela and the other "rules" of being one who has taken Amrit (i.e. not eating meat, non-consumption of alcohol....), basically doing all the 'Do's' and keeping away from the 'Don'ts' from across the spectrum, BUT then has a track record of ruining people's lives with certain...practices, is that Amritdhari protected from the consequences of their actions because they've taken Amrit?

Other people seem to get their comeuppance in a matter of months or even a few years, but this individual is free to wreak havoc with people and there are absolutely NO consequences for that person for more than a decade now!

My heart tells me Amrit is not blind in this way but after reading about the power of Khandhe Di Paulh I'm beginning to wonder whether it does provide protection for even someone so despicable.

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If an Amritdhari who observes Amritvela and the other "rules" of being one who has taken Amrit (i.e. not eating meat, non-consumption of alcohol....), basically doing all the 'Do's' and keeping away from the 'Don'ts' from across the spectrum, BUT then has a track record of ruining people's lives with certain...practices, is that Amritdhari protected from the consequences of their actions because they've taken Amrit?

Other people seem to be get their comeuppance in a matter of months or even a few years, but this individual is free to wreak havoc with people and there are absolutely NO consequences for that person for more than a decade now!

My heart tells me Amrit is not blind in this way but after reading about the power of Khandhe Di Paulh I'm beginning to wonder whether it does provide protection for even someone so despicable.

Khalsa Ji

Taking Amrit does not mean that one can get away with immoral or deceitful behaviour. With regards to the come uppance there are people in the world who commit evil yet are healthy and prosperous , there are others who are angel like yet have illnesses and bad luck at times. It's all to do with what we have sown in the past.

Taking Amrit is like taking admission into a school , one has to follow the teachings of the Guru. Taking Amrit is not the free ticket to do whatever one wishes , taking Amrit is enrolling into the school of Gursikhi. Whether one chooses to learn and work hard towards Gursikhi is a personal choice.

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Question 1:

http://sikhitothemax....asp?ShabadID=4

I don't think we should get into the debate whether or not only Amritdharis can attain liberation/mukti or not at all. The main thing is we need to recite Waheguru's name with love and for every Sikh we should take Amrit because Guru Sahib gave us this priceless gift.

The best answer to whether only Khalsa can attain mukti is given by this Singh:

Everyone watch the video and understand what he means.

Here's a good explanation I just saw in regards to Waheguru Simran

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2. If a person smokes, drinks, chases girls, cuts hair, eats meat, etc....but still does good deeds and remembers God, can they achieve liberation/salvation?

It's not the act of smoking, drinking chasing girls, cutting hair or eating meat that is bad. It's the effects of these things that is bad. Smoking leads to health effects that render your body useless and thus you can not concentrate of Waheguru. Chasing girls is a distraction that when goes unchecked renders the boy (or even girl because it applies just as much to girls) distracted from what the meaning of life is - merging back with Waheguru. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji was asked why Sikhs keep their hair by an angrej, Sant Ji replied why do you cut your hair? If we live in the paana of Waheguru then all will keep their hair. It's an identity of a Sikh and most importantly submits to the will of Waheguru - the way of the Universe. As for eating meat, Guru Sahib Ji says in bani that arguing over meat is foolish. For this look at Rehit Maryada of the Sikhs and see why Sikhs don't eat meat.

What we forget is no one essentially is all good or all bad but to become pure and see Waheguru and merge into that Light we need to clean the dirt of the world with Gurbani.

3. For those who believe in hell/heaven (Christians, Muslims), do they also suffer from the 8.4 million rebirths or do they end up in heaven or hell after death?

I don't know about this but Sant Jarnail Singh Ji said for people of different religions to be good Christians/Muslims. I think the problem is when people start to blindly promote their religion without understanding what their Prophets originally tried to do - betterment of man kind.

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Guest BandaBahadur

1. Can a non-amritdhari achieve liberation and become one with God? If so, why become amritdhari and wear the 5K's?

No, Gurbani states that we have to have Naam to be liberated and Gurbani states Naam can only be given by Guru Sahib ie the panj pyari through amrit.

2. If a person smokes, drinks, chases girls, cuts hair, eats meat, etc....but still does good deeds and remembers God, can they achieve liberation/salvation?

These are cardinal sins (extreme attachment to Maya) and other sins are gossiping, slandering, lying etc, so it means you are not a good person. It means you are far away from God. Good deeds are weak without japping naam, so no we cannot be liberated the way you have stated.

3. For those who believe in hell/heaven (Christians, Muslims), do they also suffer from the 8.4 million rebirths or do they end up in heaven or hell after death?

All religions under Maya such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc can go to heaven, but sometimes they go both hell and heaven depending on their bad and good deeds. Buddhism are capable of reaching higher than Islam and Christianity, but a Hindu who meditates on their god's name intensely can become a siddha like a buddha and reach a similar spiritual stage. Both have been mentioned of being able to reach Gyan Khand which is above Maya. Depending on how great their simran is, they can reach as high as Karam Khand, which means they have become true lovers of Vaheguru. HOWEVER, THEY CANNOT SAACHKHAND without going through Guru Sahib. Only that person who becomes a Gursikh is able to reach the highest spiritual level, which is Bhramgyan (becoming one with God and reaching Saachkhand level). Through japping Naam we learn this. It can also be learnt by studying Bhai Gurdas Jee's vaaran, Guru Granth Sahib jee and Dasam Granth.

I don't understand your statements. You say only one who is Gursikh is able to achieve the highest spiritual level. The Khalsa was created in 1699, does this mean that before this date no one achieved the highest spiritual level?

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Banda Bahadur, I am not the only one stating that, Guru Nanak/Guru Gobind Singh - Guru Granth Sahib jee is stating that too.

Read this topic - http://gurmatbibek.c...ead.php?3,19645

My account name on the above forum is B.Singh. Besides me, Kulbir Singh also proves that only a Gursikh can reach Saachkhand using quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Jee and Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran. Read the beginning to the end of that debate.

Again, no one can reach Saachkhand without going through Guru Nanak Dev Jee. They can reach other spiritual levels but not the highest. Not even the Bhagat's reached Saachkhand without Guru Sahib; they reached Karam Khand until Guru Sahib let them through into Saachkhand. Guru Nanak in the form of Guru Arjun Dev Jee blessed them to enter Saachkhand.

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Guest gursikh

I agree with Kaal, also read this article from http://www.tapoban.o...read.php?1,5814

Salvation Before Guru Nanak

By Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh in “Gurmat”, September 1959

One friend has raised the doubt that if Satnaam (the true naam) has only been given by Guru Sahib and if humans can only be saved and liberated by Satnaam, how were humans liberated before the arrival of Guru Nanak Sahib jee?

It has been proven [in other books] through Gurmat principles that true salvation is only possible through Satnaam.

In reply to this, with the beat of a drum and in a thundering voice I say not once but hundreds of thousands of times that true salvation for humans and true liberation is only possible through Satnaam and this Satnaam has only been revealed by Satguru Nanak Sahib.

Sri Guru Nanak Dashmesh jee in his bani, Bachitar Natak has made it very clear that all those Avtars, Prophets etc. who came to this earth were sent by Akal Purakh for the salvation of humanity however, Guru Sahib has said about them:

ਸਭਅਪਨੀਅਪਨੀਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਕਾਹੂਨਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend God.

Also,

ਜੇਪ੍ਰਭੁਪਰਮਪੁਰਖਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨਤਿਨਅਪਨੇਰਾਹਚਲਾਏ ॥

All the great men created by me started their own paths.

And also,

ਜਿਨਿਜਿਨਿਤਨਿਕਸਿੱਧਕੋਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨਤਿਨਅਪਨਾਰਾਹੁਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own path.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰਨਕਿਨਹੂੰਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮਉਚਾਰਤੇਭਯੋਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥

None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad, saying “I” (with ego)16.

ਪਰਮਤੱਤਕਿਨਹੂੰਨਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪਆਪਭੀਤਰਿਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥

Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

Finally,

ਸਭਤੇਅਪਨਾਨਾਮੁਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁਕਾਹੂੰਨਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥

He caused all to utter his name and did not enshrine (driR) Satnaam of the Lord to anyone.

So this is clear from the words of Sri Nanak Dashmesh that ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁਕਾਹੂੰਨਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ .

Before Satguru Nanak, Satnaam was not given and enshrined (driR) by anyone. How could they give it since this Satnaam was not obtained from the Dargah (court) of Akaal Purakh by anyone except Guru Nanak?

How could they obtain it since no one (none of the earlier prophets) cared about the true salvation of humanity? They were all just concerned about themselves. They became full of themselves because of the fact that they had heard a celestial voice tell them to help save humanity. [The voice] said that they were appointed leaders of men and with this they became egotistical. Only Guru Nanak-Dashmesh jee were saved from this egotistical way. Ah! With what amazing humility does Sri Guru Dashmesh jee say,

ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਬਾਚਇਸਕੀਟਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥

The Words of Akaal Purakh to this insect:

And Akaal Purakh’s hukam is as such:

ਮੈਅਪਨਾਸੁਤਤੋਹਿਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥਪ੍ਰਚੁਰਕਰਬੇਕਹੁਸਾਜਾ ॥

I have appointed you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the Panth

ਜਾਹਿਤਹਾਂਤੈਧਰਮੁਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿਕਰਨਤੇਲੋਕਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥

"You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and stop the people from foolish actions".29.

Look at the humility in Sri Dashmesh jee’s answer to this hukam of Akaal Purakh:

ਠਾਢਭਯੋਮੈਜੋਰਿਕਰਬਚਨਕਹਾਸਿਰਨਿਆਇ ॥

I stood up with folded hands and bowing down my head, I said:

ਪੰਥਚਲੈਤਬਜਗਤਮੈਜਬਤੁਮਕਰਹੁਸਹਾਇ ॥੩੦॥

"The Panth shall prevail in the world, when you give your assistance."30.

Satguru Nanak jee came, being sent from Akaal Purakh with the orders from Dargah, and whenever he came to perform the selfless task of offering salvation of the countless universes, Guru Baba did not do anything of his own will. He went to Sachkhand and took the orders from there and accepting Akaal Purakh as his Guru, took the Guru Deekhyaa (initiation). He took the true initiation deekhyaa and every time [he came], kept taking it.

Yes, he obtained the Gurmukh divine gift of nau-nidh naam gareebee.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਪਾਈ ਦਾਤ ਇਲਾਹੀ

Yes, ਬਾਬਾ ਪੈਧਾ ਸਚ ਖੰਡ ਨੌਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਪਾਈ॥

Baba[Guru Nanak] reached Sachkhand wherefrom he received Naam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.

He set this example and continued to set it.

After obtained the true gift of Satnaam from the Lord’s Court, Guru Baba, Satguru Nanak Sachay Paatshaah distributed Satnaam to the human world. Not only on this land of Bharat (Hindustan) but in all directions of the world he sent out Satnaam.

ਗੜ੍ਹ ਬਗਦਾਦ ਨਿਵਾਇਕੈ ਮਕਾ ਮਦੀਨਾ ਸਭ ਨਿਵਾਯਾ॥

After making Baghdad, the citadel (of pirs) bow, Mecca, Madina, and, all were humbled.

ਸਿਧ ਚੌਰਾਸੀਹ ਮੰਡਲੀ ਖਟ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜਣਾਯਾ॥

He (Baba Nanak) exposed the eighty four siddhs and the hypocrisies of the six schools of Indian philosophy.

ਪਾਤਾਲਾਂ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਲਖ ਜਿੱਤੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਜਗਤ ਸਬਾਯਾ॥

Hundreds of thousands of underworlds, the skies, earths and the whole world were conquered.

ਜਿਤੀ ਨਵਖੰਡ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਸਤਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਫਿਰਾਯਾ॥

Subjugating all the nine divisions of earth he established the cycle of Satnaam.

ਦੇਵਦਾਨੋ ਰਾਕਸ ਦੈਂਤ ਸਭ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤ ਸਭ ਚਰਨੀ ਲਾਯਾ॥

All the gods, demons, raksasa, daitys, Chitragupt et al. bowed at his feet.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣ ਅਪੱਛਰਾਂ ਰਾਗ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਮੰਗਲ ਗਾਯਾ॥

Indra and his nymphs sang auspicious songs in his praise.

ਭਯਾ ਅਨੰਦ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਲਿ ਤਾਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਯਾ॥

The whole world came into bliss as Guru Nanak came to save those in Kaljug

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਨਿਵਾਯਾ॥

The Hindus and Muslims were all made to bow.

Not only this world, but hundreds of thousands of Universes and galaxies and planets were won by Satnaam. Yes! Guru Baba spun the chakar of Satnaam in hundreds of thousands of planets like ours and saved countless universes with the support of Satnaam.

Yes! It is true! He being ਕੋਟਿਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਕੋਠਾਕੁਰੁਸੁਆਮੀਸਰਬਜੀਆਕਾਦਾਤਾਰੇ ॥ Master of millions of universes, the Giver of all beings. He is the resident of countless universes and giver to countless beings.

He is the giver of the gift of ਜੀਅਦਾਨੁਦੇਭਗਤੀਲਾਇਨਿ The gift of life and he is the one who attaches to Bhagti.

Scientists have discovered only now that in sky, in the stars we see, there are countless planets like ours and countless suns like our sun. It was regarding this that 500 years ago Satguru Nanak Dev said boldly

ਕੇਤੇਇੰਦਚੰਦਸੂਰਕੇਤੇਕੇਤੇਮੰਡਲਦੇਸ ॥

So many Indras, so many moons and suns, so many worlds and lands.

Not only did he say this boldly, he made countless Gursikhs aware of the amazing giaan in Giaan Khand.

He showed the reality and scene of ਕੇਤੇਇੰਦਚੰਦਸੂਰਕੇਤੇਕੇਤੇਮੰਡਲਦੇਸ ॥ in clear form.

The research of scientists is yet very little and still not developed but Satguru Nanak showed Pir Dastgir’s son in the blink of an eye, all the hundreds and thousands of universes and galaxies. In the blink of an eye he took him on a trip through the galaxies and universes. To prove the truth of the vastness of creation to Pir Dastgir, who only believed in Islam’s 7 upper and nether regions, and to make him board the boat of true faith and belief, Guru Sahib did all this:

ਨਾਲ ਲੀਤਾ ਬੇਟਾ ਪੀਰ ਦਾ ਅਖੀਂ ਮੀਟ ਗਿਆ ਹਵਾਈ॥

Guru Nanak Dev taking along with him the son of the pir, melted into thin air.

ਲਖ ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਪਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਅਖ ਫੁਰਕ ਵਿਚ ਸਭ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ॥

And in a wink of eye showed him the hundreds of thousands of upper and lower worlds.

And also,

ਭਰ ਕਚਕੌਲ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਾਦ ਦਾ ਧੁਰੋਂ ਪਤਾਲੋਂ ਲਈ ਕੜਾਹੀ॥

From the nether world he brought a cauldron full of parshaad and handed some over to the Pir

From this it is clear and proven that before offering salvation to this world, Satguru Nanak had spread the order and cycle of Satnaam in countless universes and galaxies and saved them. And Guru Baba’s Sangat in the nether worlds was enjoying Karah Parshad just like the sangat here does [it was from this sangat that Guru Sahib brought the karah parshad back for Pir Dastgir].

The lord of the entire creation cares about and is concerned for all his creation. And just like this, he is concerned about the goings on in each epoch.

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@Kaal and people who think that no one reached Vaheguru or Sachkand before Guru Nanak is wrong, God sent many GurMukhs before he sent Guru Nanak Dev Jee who cemented the Daram of Such and left us with Dhan Guru Granth Shiab

I only have to give 1 example out of 10+ thats Raja Janak he was Brahm Giaani (my source is Sant Isher Singh), according to Guru Arjan Dev Jee, Brahm Giiani is one who has Merged With VaheGuru, there isnt a higher Avasta than this.

If anyone wants more examples and where it says within Gurbani that people had reached Sach Kandh before Guru Nanak Dev Jee, ill happily reply.

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