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Mat Pulo Rai, yes Raja Janak was born in Treta yug and so according to you he reached the highest state (bhramgyan) in that yug however according to Gurbani the highest state can only be reached in Kaliyug. Here, read my post from Gurmat Bibek -

Kalyug the best from the ages

ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਾਂਢੀ ਇਕ ਉਤਮ ਪਦਵੀ ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

Kali Yuga is called the Dark Age, but the most sublime state is attained in this age.

Raja Janak was from Treta Yug but as this shabad line explains that from all the four ages the highest and supreme state can only be reached in this yug! So, Raja Janak had to have met Guru Nanak Dev Jee in Kalyug to have been called a True Gurmukh, as Satguru only revealed himself in Kalyug. So, NO WAY could Raja Janak have met Guru Nanak dev Jee in the previous yuga because that would mean he reached the level of Bhramgyani (highest state) which is impossible according to this shabad line. The following will give a better understanding.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

The above shabad explains who Vaheguru came onto earth as in the yuga. Guru Nanak existed right from the beginning (as stated by Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran) and he displayed a small amount of his power through Vishnu's avtars. Through his Sargun form, Vishnu, he came on earth first as the Baavan (Dwarf), Raam and then Krishan who were imperfect. So, a Gurmukh in those ages could only go as high as Vishnu. In Kalyug, Vaheguru Jee the Nirgun/Perfect/True form revealed himself through Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Therefore, Raja Janak could have only reached a high spiritual state under Vishnu but not the true mukti state. For that he would have had to wait for Kalyug to come so that he could meet Satguru just as Bhagat Prahlaad, Sukhdev, Sri Raam and other angelic beings did (explained later).

siqgur nwnk pRgitAw imtI DuMD jg cwnx hoAw]

With the emergence of the True Guru Nanak, the mist cleared and the light scattered all around.

ijau kir sUrju inkilAw qwry Cip AMDyr ploAw]

As if at the sun rise the stars disappeared and the darkness dispelled.

isMG buky imrgwvlI BMnI jwie n DIir DroAw]

With the roar of the lion in the forest the flocks of escaping deer now cannot have endurance.

ijQY bwbw pYr Dir pUjw Awsxu Qwpix soAw]

Wherever Baba put his feet, a religious place was erected and established.

isD Awsix siB jgq dy nwnk Awd mqy jy koAw]

All the siddh-places now have been renamed on the name of Nanak.

Gir Gir AMdir Drmswl hovY kIrqnu sdw ivsoAw]

Every home has become a place of dharma where singing.

bwby qwry cwir cik nauKMif ipRQmI scw FoAw]

Baba liberated all four directions and nine divisions of earth.

gurmuiK kil ivic prgt hoAw ]27]

Gurmukh (Guru Nanak) has emerged in this Kalyug, the dark age.(27)

This pauri from Bhai Gurdas jee’s Vaaran further proves that Guru Nanak Dev jee only appeared (pargat) in this age, kalyug.

Gurmukh

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੩॥

O Nanak, he alone is known as Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord reveals Himself. ||3||

A Gurmukh is someone who finds God. This means, in the previous yuga, a Gurmukh was someone who found Vishnu (sargun form). However, the above shabad is making clear that only he/she is a True Gurmukh who finds Vaheguru – the True Form. In order to find Vaheguru we have to jap the True Naam which is only available through Satguru –

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥

Thus, the Vaheguru mantar has only been revealed in Kalyug through Guru Sahib -

ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ ॥

In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.

(from the Bhatts bania, in Guru Granth Sahib Jee, in the praise of Guru Arjun Dev Jee)

In Bhai Gurdaas Jee’s Vaaran, the line below, clearly states that only when the Gurmukh meets Satguru is his/her goal achieved. Meaning that the Gurmukh meets Vaheguru and is therefore called a True Gurmukh -

gurmiuK suK Plu jnmu siqguru pwieAw]

The life of that Gurmukh is successful who has met the True Guru.

Festival Abhaijit

Here is the link to the full shabad of this festival: [www.sikhitothemax.com]

Gurbani mentions names of many devotees of God from the previous yuga because in Kalyug they were liberated by Guru Sahib. Bhagat Prahlaad is called a gurmukh too in Gurbani but he is only liberated by Guru Raam Das Jee according to Gurbani. In this shabad, it describes the event/festival of Abhaijit which Guru Sahib went to with his Sikhs.

ਦੇਖਣਿ ਆਏ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸਭਿ ਆਇਆ ॥

The angelic beings and silent sages from all the three worlds came to see Him.

ਜਿਨ ਪਰਸਿਆ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਪੂਰਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਨਾਸ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥

Those who are touched by the Guru, the True Guru - all their sins and mistakes were erased and dispelled.

Suraa (angelic like beings) came from all three worlds, which include the sat pataals (where Prahlaad, king Bali etc live) and the sat Akaash (seven heavens), to see Guru Sahib so that they could be blessed.

Continuing (I corrected the translation below) -

ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਪੁਛਿ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਸਹੀ ॥

The Guru, the True Guru, the Guru is the Lord of the Universe. Go ahead and consult the Simritees, which have been corrected by Guru Sahib.

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਭਨੀ ਸਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੁਕਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਮਿ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥

The Simritees and the Shaastras have been corrected by Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib made Suk Dayv, Prahlaad and Raam Chandar meditate on the Lord of the Universe (vaheguru).

ਦੇਹੀ ਨਗਰਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੰਚ ਚੋਰ ਵਟਵਾਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਥਾਉ ਥੇਹੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥

The five thieves and the highway robbers dwell in the fortress of the body-village; the Guru has destroyed their home and place.

ਕੀਰਤਨ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਨਿਤ ਪੁੰਨ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਲਹੀ ॥

The Puraanas continually praise the giving of charity, but devotional worship of the Lord is only obtained through the Word of Guru Nanak.

This part of the shabad has affirmed important points; one is that Prahlaad, Sukhdev and Raamchandar were given the True Name (Vaheguru) by Guru Sahib to meditate on and the second is that True Bhagti of Vaheguru is only obtained through GURU NANAK!

To conclude, we have found that he/she can only be called a True Gurmukh who goes through Satguru to be truly liberated (muktee) and find Vaheguru. Secondly, Satguru is only found in Kalyug. Therefore, raja janak only obtained Vaheguru and became a True Gurmukh in Kalyug.

I respect all bhagats but jyot bigaas has many levels; meaning that, the higher one is, the better the understanding will be of Gurbani and Truth. You must have misunderstood Sant Ishar Singh ji, because Raja Janak is in Saachkhand now but he only made it there in Kalyug and through Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Bhai Gurdas Jee in his Vaaran praises Guru Sahib -

sau ivc vrqY isK sMq iekoqr sO siqgur AibnwsI]

If the Sikh is hundred times, the eternal True Guru is hundred and one times.

sdw sdIv dIbwx ijsu AsiQr sdw n AwvY jwsI]

His court is ever steadfast and he never undergoes the cycle of transmigration.

iek mn ijnHYN iDAwieAw kwtI glhu iqsY jm PwsI]

He who mediates upon Him with single minded Devotion, gets his noose of Yama, cut asunder.

ieko iek vrqdw Sbd suriq siqgurU jxwsI]

That one Lord alone pervades everywhere, and only by merging consciousness in the word that True Guru can be known.

ibnu drsnu guru mUriq BRmqw iPry lK jUin caurwsI]

Without the glimpse of the manifest Guru (the word of Guru), the Jiv wanders in eighty four lacs of species of life.

ibnu dIiKAw gurdyv dI mir jnmy ivic nrk pvwsI]

Without the teachings of Guru, the Jiv goes on taking birth and dying and is ultimately thrown in hell.

inrgux srgux siqgurU ivrlw ko gur sbd smwsI]

The True Guru (Lord) is without attributes and yet possesses all the qualities. A rare one absorbs himself in the word of Guru.

ibnu guru Et n hor ko scI Et n kdy ibnwsI]

There is no shelter without Guru’s and this True refuge never gets destroyed.

gurW gurU siqguru purKu Awid AMiq iQr gurU rhwsI]

The True Guru (Lord), Guru of all Gurus, is the immutable Guru from beginning to end.

ko ivrlw gurmuiK shij smwsI ]21]

Any rare Gurmukh gets merged in the equipoise.(21)

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I respect all bhagats but jyot bigaas has many levels; meaning that, the higher one is, the better the understanding will be of Gurbani and Truth. You must have misunderstood Sant Ishar Singh ji, because Raja Janak is in Saachkhand now but he only made it there in Kalyug and through Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Bhai Gurdas Jee in his Vaaran praises Guru Sahib -

Lets say i didn't misunderstand sant jee and i was right, would that be enough for you to believe that People before Guru Nanak reached Sachkand, or after hearing Sant jees audio would you still doubt it.

Im willing to do the opposite.

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Lets say i didn't misunderstand sant jee and i was right, would that be enough for you to believe that People before Guru Nanak reached Sachkand, or after hearing Sant jees audio would you still doubt it.

Im willing to do the opposite.

Khalsa Ji

Sant Isher Singh Ji were asked what happens to those people who live a good clean wholesome life free from vices similar to a Gurmukh but who have not taken Khandey Di Pauhal. Sant Ji said that these people owing to their good life will be born into a Sikh family after their death and will meet Amritdhari Gurmukhs as a result of which these people will realise the need for Amrit.

Khalsa Ji one can get into Shivpuri , Inderpur , Svarg etc....by doing good deeds but the ultimate aim of the manukha janam is Jeevan Mukti which cannot be obtained without following the protocol of Khandey di pauhal. Sant Ji have stated this in their Kirtans.

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It's incorrect to think that others before Guru Ji could not get mukht because to meet God you need love and it some how doesn't make sense because guru ji makes it clear that 'sach keo sun leho sabeh jin prem kio thin he prabh payao' . So through love one gets mukhti and love somehow did not increase after guru ji appeared.

Raja Janak was Mukht before Guru Nanak took physical form. The below makes it clear.

Raja Janak was able to free all those from hell with 1 GhaRi of his bhagthi. How many of us can do that?

Someone with that amount of bhagthi cannot be said to be low, I would chop of my head and place it at the feet of Gurmukhs like him.

The prasang by Bhai Gurdaas Jee is as follows: ਭਗਤੁ ਵਡਾ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚਿ ਉਦਾਸੀ||

King Janak was a great saint who amidst Maya remained indifferent to it.

ਦੇਵ ਲੋਕ ਨੋ ਚਲਿਆ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਭਾ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ||

Along with gans and gandharvs (celestial musicians) he went to the abode of the Gods.

ਜਮਪੁਰਿਗਇਆ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਸੁਣਿ ਵਿਲਲਾਵਨਿ ਜੀਅਨ ਰਕ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ||

From there, he, hearing the cries of inhabitants of hell, went to them.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਆਖਿਓਨੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦ ਖਲਾਸੀ||

He asked the God of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

ਕਰੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਧਰਮਰਾਇ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ॥

Hearing this, the God of death told him he was a mere servant of the eternal Lord (and without His orders he could not liberate them).

ਗਹਿਣੇ ਧਰਿਓਨੁ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਉ ਪਾਪਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਜਾਸੀ॥

Janak offered a part of his Devotion and remembrance of the name of the Lord. All the sins of hell were found not equal even to the counterweight of balance

ਪਾਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪੁ ਨ ਪੁਜਨੀ, ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਉ ਅਤੁਲ, ਨ ਤੁਲਾਸੀ॥

In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the Gurmukh

ਨਰਕਹੁ ਛੁਟੇ ਜੀਆ ਜੰਤ, ਕਟੀ ਗਲਹੁੰ ਸਿਲਕ ਜਮ ਫਾਸੀ॥

All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੀ ਦਾਸੀ ॥5॥

Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.(5)

Do you believe Bhai Gurdaas Ji was a Gurmukh? If so, then you would not doubt his word. He has clearly stated that Raja Janak was a great saint who was able to separate himself from maya. A saint is one who has conquered maya, and in the first thukh by Bhai Gurdas Ji, he has stated how Raja Janak was able to remain indifferent amongst it.

Only someone with any spiritual authority is able to do such a thing within the afterlife. It is not as if I would be able to go to the next world and command Daramraj to release all them within hell. Whose kamayee would be able to save them from going to hell? Let alone save every single being within hell using only 1 GhaRi!

Bhai Gurdas ji then goes on to say:

'In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the Gurmukh'

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Firstly, Gursikhs can do exactly what Raja Janak did but more as they can liberate souls from hells from other universes as well. In fact, Gursikhs are able to give a sinner permanent liberation. For instance, Baba Deep Singh gave shaheedee to whoever he killed and made them immortal. Gursikhs are greater than Raja Janak and this shabad proves it –

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਊਤਮ ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕ

(Within the Sants (Gursikhs) of Hari, there is Har Har Gurmat Naam and for this reason, they are superior to Janak and likes of Janak).

Secondly, if Raja Janak obtained True Mukti at the time of his death then why does it state in the same shabad that ‘Consciousness’ gave that –

ਦੇਵ ਲੋਕ ਨੋ ਚਲਿਆ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਭਾ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ||

Along with gans and gandharvs (celestial musicians) he went to the abode of the Gods.

Gans and Gandharvs live in Indrapuri and dev lok is another name for Indrapuri. So, basically, Raja Janak was on his way to live in INDARPURI NOT SAACHKHAND.

Thirdly, you have to understand the concept of Vaheguru Mantar compared to other sargun/kirtan names of Vaheguru’s sargun form, Vishnu.

Kirtam Naam and Sat Naam

Before Guru Nanak Dev Ji, many names of God were exposed to the world. These names are called Kirtam Naam. Meaning, these names are of particular qualities of his Sargun forms, not of the Nirgun form- Akaal Purakh. Reciting any of these names will get the devotee to a particular stage but not to Akaal (Nirgun Form).

ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ

With my tongue I chant the Names given to You.

ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ

'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name.

Sheshnaag (Vishnu’s Serpent with many heads) recites a particular Kirtam Naam (such as Ram, Har, Allah etc) with each head of his but still, as the tuk below states; he still cannot find God’s limits:

ਸਹਸ ਫਨੀ ਜਪਿਓ ਸੇਖਨਾਗੈ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਆ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ

The serpent king chants and meditates on the Lord with his thousands of heads, but even by these chants, he cannot find the Lord's limits.

As a result, the Bhagat’s Bhagti on Kirtam naam could not have let them go as far as Saachkhand. The Bhagats Bhagti on Kirtam naam only allowed them to decrease their Haumai to a small amount. So it only allowed them to go as far as Karam Khand. Only through Satguru and Satnaam their haumai was eliminated completely and hence they entered Saachkhand. Haumai is the barrier between us and Vaheguru.

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਰੇ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

O my mind, by chanting Naam, they got delivered. Dhru, Prahlaad, son of servant (Bidar) swam through Gurmukh Naam.

And

ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਉਧਰੇ ॥

ਨਾਮਾ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਭਿ ਦੋਖ ਗਏ ਚਮਰੇ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਉਧਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਟਰੇ ॥2॥

In Kalyug too Naam the supreme Substance, delivered Bhagat Jan. Naamdev, Jaideo, Kabir and Trilochan got delivered and all sins of Chamaar Ravidaas jee were washed away. All those who got into Gurmukh Naam, got delivered and all their sins were washed away.

The above states that only through reciting GURMUKH NAAM, not any naam, the Bhagats were liberated. Guru Sahib here is being precise by saying Gurmukh Naam. In Sidh Gost, the siddhas asked Guru Sahib who is liberated and Guru Sahib answered that only the Gurmukh is. Gurmukh means the ways of the Guru and the true Guru (Satguru) for this Yug and all yugs is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which means only following the path of the Guru we can be liberated.

joiq rUip hir Awip gurU nwnku khwXau ]

The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

qw qy AMgdu BXau qq isau qqu imlwXau ]

From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence.

AMgid ikrpw Dwir Amru siqguru iQru kIAau ]

Guru Angad showed His Mercy, and established Amar Daas as the True Guru.

Lastly, Read this shabad –

siqjug siqgur vwsdyv vwvw ivsnw nwmu jpwvY]

In Satyug, Vishnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vaheguru reminds of Vishnu.

duAwPir siqgur hrIikRsn hwhw hir hir nwm ijpwvY]

The True Guru of Dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vaheguru reminds of Hari.

qRyqy siqgur rwm jI rwrw rwm jpy suK pwvY]

In the Treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vaheguru tells that remembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

kiljug nwnk gur goivMd ggw goivMd nwm AlwvY]

In Kalyug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vaheguru gets Govind recited.

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiex ivic jwie smwvY]

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

cwry ACr iek kir vwihgurU jpu mMqR jpwvY]

When joining four letters Vaheguru is remembered,

jhW qy aupijAw iPir qhW smwvY ]49]1]

The Jiv merges again in its origin.(49)(1)

(http://www.sikhitoth...p?ShabadID=5589)

The last line proves that only MEDITATION ON VAHEGURU MANTAR ALLOWS OUR SOULS (JIV) TO MERGE INTO ITS ORIGIN (VAHEGURU)! THE ONLY WAY TO OBTAIN VAHEGURU MANTAR IS THROUGH SATGURU NANAK!

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Mat Pulo Rai and Consciousness, my Naam experience is similar to Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jees. So I believe, from experience, that all devotees of God went through Guru Nanak for their Haumai to be completely eliminated and thus gain True Love for Vaheguru, which allowed them to enter Saachkhand. If Sant Ishar Singh Jee definitely meant that then I have to doubt Sant Ji. Even though, he is a great Gurmukh but I have to doubt he understood the Greatness of Guru Nanak and Gurbani. Again, Jyot Bigaas has many levels, so the higher one is the better the understanding is. However, I believe even if a Gurmukh has not become Bhramgyan while alive Guru Sahib still lets them go Saachkhand when they leave their body.

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Mat Pulo Rai and Consciousness, my Naam experience is similar to Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jees. So I believe, from experience, that all devotees of God went through Guru Nanak for their Haumai to be completely eliminated and thus gain True Love for Vaheguru, which allowed them to enter Saachkhand. If Sant Ishar Singh Jee definitely meant that then I have to doubt Sant Ji. Even though, he is a great Gurmukh but I have to doubt he understood the Greatness of Guru Nanak and Gurbani. Again, Jyot Bigaas has many levels, so the higher one is the better the understanding is. However, I believe even if a Gurmukh has not become Bhramgyan while alive Guru Sahib still lets them go Saachkhand when they leave their body.

Thats all i wanted to know, Bhai shaib thanks for clearing that up, I always said people may have differing views, and i respect each and everyone, but i will have to say that when Sant Isher Singh Jee says that Rana Janak was merged thats the truth I believe.

Fateh Jee

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Can't wait to see the (dead) faces of the Christians, Muslims and Jews as they have to settle for "Heaven", lol. I'd love to see their reaction when they're told they have to be reborn especially when they don't even believe in the concept of rebirth!!! Imagine their disbelief when they're told that their "Heaven" isn't all it's cracked up to be, lol. They'll be merked big-time!

Expect to hear a lot of "What was the point of THAT?", i.e. in reference to the life-time they just completed. :biggrin2:

Hopefully I won't be the one merked if someone tries to send me to Narak. I ain't going to tolerate that! I'll kick up a fuss and demand to see the manager! If a Singh turns up I'll be okay but if St. Paul appears I'm done for because he's probably racist. :nono:

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Firstly, Gursikhs can do exactly what Raja Janak did but more as they can liberate souls from hells from other universes as well.

Please provide evidence of this in gurbani? Also where does it say in gurbani that Raja janak could not liberate others from other universes?

In fact, Gursikhs are able to give a sinner permanent liberation. For instance, Baba Deep Singh gave shaheedee to whoever he killed and made them immortal.

How do you know Raja Janak could not do this?

Gursikhs are greater than Raja Janak and this shabad proves it –

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਊਤਮ ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕ

(Within the Sants (Gursikhs) of Hari, there is Har Har Gurmat Naam and for this reason, they are superior to Janak and likes of Janak).

^The above is kulbir Singh jis interpretation of the tuk but I disagree. You have randomly taken har and used it to say that raja janak did not receive gurmat naam. Also your interpretation is incorrect because you added in ‘Har Har Gurmat Naam’ as that is not mentioned in the tuk but assumed. The error you make is that gurmat naam is only waheguru assuming har above is related to gurmat naam when it can mean any of God’s names or even har. When other tuks in gurbani use har many times. Also in the last part of the above tuk ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕcan not be interpretated as ‘likes of janak’ because they are 2 different words also it doesn’t mention ‘Raja’ janak so you can’t be really sure it’s talking about raja janak. Clearly the naam given to Raja janak was gurmat according to him because his guru Ashtavakra gave him naam. Gurmat – Knowledge from Guru in raja janaks case guru Ashtavakra. Evidently for Raja Janak to be gurmukh (as Bhai gurdas states) his guru Ashtavakra must have been a pooran guru.

hir jn hir hir nwim smwxy duKu jnm mrx Bv KMfw hy ]

har jan har har naam samaanae dhukh janam maran bhav kha(n)ddaa hae ||

The humble servants of the Lord are absorbed in the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. The pain of birth and the fear of death are eradicated.

The shabad is one e.g. that har is used throughout gurbani a lot to show one who is liberated but you can’t just assume that it only means gurmat naam i.e. waheguru not anything else.

Secondly, if Raja Janak obtained True Mukti at the time of his death then why does it state in the same shabad that ‘Consciousness’ gave that –

Just to clarify that I did not write that post but I found on gurmat bibek written by someone else, which I kind of agreed with but did not read fully… Plus I do not believe he was dead (plus it is not mentioned in the tuk) when he went to free people from hell. He could have done this by his suksham sareer ‘astral body’ as hell and heaven realms are only a part of the astral world.

ਦੇਵ ਲੋਕ ਨੋ ਚਲਿਆ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਭਾ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ||

Along with gans and gandharvs (celestial musicians) he went to the abode of the Gods.

Gans and Gandharvs live in Indrapuri and dev lok is another name for Indrapuri. So, basically, Raja Janak was on his way to live in INDARPURI NOT SAACHKHAND.

Yes, sachkand is not a mental or astral state so clearly when a gurmukh (brahmgiani) chooses to go to places like heaven, which are astral realms (still a form of maya) they are seen as God and the angels (i.e celestial beings) follow them seeking liberation. So this interpretation of mine can clarify this point of yours. Also a brahmgiani (raja janak) is always alive even without the body ‘brahmgiani sadh jeevai nahi marta’ he could go which ever place he like just like how guru nanak can choose to go to heaven to free others as well even if he wants to now. Doesn’t make guru nanak bound to that heaven does it.. So in the same way it is not wise to assume that raja janak is only in indapuri.

Also another e.g. is when Sant Basant singh went to daram raj’s court whilst alive to save one of his devotees from hell. Here what raja janak did to the papis in hell.

ਨਰਕਹੁ ਛੁਟੇ ਜੀਆ ਜੰਤ, ਕਟੀ ਗਲਹੁੰ ਸਿਲਕ ਜਮ ਫਾਸੀ॥

All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੀ ਦਾਸੀ ॥5॥

Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.(5)

Thirdly, you have to understand the concept of Vaheguru Mantar compared to other sargun/kirtan names of Vaheguru’s sargun form, Vishnu.

My view of sargun and nirgun are different than yours. Please read what n30 singh has wrote about them. I agree with him.

Whole foundation and theology of Sikhism is based on concept of Sargun and Nirgun:

In Sikhism god is considered to have two forms.

One form is called nirgun(non existent original/supreme blissful Consciousness/transcendental meditative state[anubhav parkash])

Second form is consider sargun state of God which occurs when nirgun orginal state of God transcedented its attributes into three sub forms. 1) physical form- avatars ie- our guru's of this age of iron and previous ages/karak bhramgyanis and 2) shabad form of God in sikhi context- Gurmantar, Mala Mantar/Mool Mantar/Bij Mantar/Satnaam Paraporbla mantra which explains attributes of God act as an carrier for soul merge back to its source- nirgun. 3) Sargun pasara(vairat roop/whole creation) form of Vahiguroo- Creator is infused in its creation-like fragrance in the flower.

There are two main mantras in Sikhism.

1 Gurmantar- Vahiguru.

Vahi (Blissfull/Beautiful/Memerizing) Guru(attribute/person/supreme consicouness of self that brings one consciouness from darkness/ignorance to light/knowledge of God)

2. Mool Mantra- Ikongkar Satnaam Kartapurkh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Morat Ajooni Saibhang Gurparsad ||

Ikongkar- God is one. Ik indicates nirgun form, ong indicates nirgun attributes transcendent itself to sargun (creation/spiritual state/shabda) and kar reminds us of source, which goes back to nirgun form. Kar- Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun

Ikongkar = ( One God Nirgun/Sargun Interconnected/merged with one and another/not seperable)

Satnaam- His name is truth

Kartapurkh- He himself is creator.

Nirbhau- He is without fear.

Nirvair- He does not have any enemy

Akaal Moorat- He is without time, he is exist without shape or form.

Ajooni- Without birth/death

Saibhang- He is light of knowledge

Gurparsad - He can be felt by grace of guru. In Sikh context, blessing of our 11 guru's. In broader context, anyone has felt god and got salvation, with his grace one can also attain salvation and feel god.

Kirtam Naam and Sat Naam

Before Guru Nanak Dev Ji, many names of God were exposed to the world. These names are called Kirtam Naam. Meaning, these names are of particular qualities of his Sargun forms, not of the Nirgun form- Akaal Purakh. Reciting any of these names will get the devotee to a particular stage but not to Akaal (Nirgun Form).

Please read above about sargun and nirgun. Every shabad even waheguru, raam, har etc that are recited in the mind or out loud is a sargun form of waheguru. So I totally disagree with what you say. Plus kirtam naam means attributes of god like wonderful, amazing etc. Gurmat naam - is mantar/technique given by pooran guru/brahmgiani. (But for Sikhs naam given from Guru ji)

Nirgun can’t be described or even thought about and mantar still comes under sargun. Also God does not do monopoly over what name you recite - the same goal is achieved, which by japing any mantar transcendence of mind can happen into nirgun. It’s all about prem and sharda.

Sheshnaag (Vishnu’s Serpent with many heads) recites a particular Kirtam Naam with each head of his but still, as the tuk below states; he still cannot find God’s limits:

ਸਹਸ ਫਨੀ ਜਪਿਓ ਸੇਖਨਾਗੈ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਆ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ

The serpent king chants and meditates on the Lord with his thousands of heads, but even by these chants, he cannot find the Lord's limits.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji also mentions in gurbani that no one can find God’s limits. Only God knows his own greatness – Even guru Gobind singh ji in jaap sahib says he can’t describe all of God’s qualities hence cannot know limits.

As a result, the Bhagat’s Bhagti on Kirtam naam could not have let them go as far as Saachkhand. The Bhagats Bhagti on Kirtam naam only allowed them to decrease their Haumai to a small amount. So it only allowed them to go as far as Karam Khand. Only through Satguru and Satnaam their haumai was eliminated completely and hence they entered Saachkhand. Haumai is the barrier between us and Vaheguru.

From what I wrote above I disagree with you here but I agree about the ego has to go.

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਰੇ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

O my mind, by chanting Naam, they got delivered. Dhru, Prahlaad, son of servant (Bidar) swam through Gurmukh Naam.

And

ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਉਧਰੇ ॥

ਨਾਮਾ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਭਿ ਦੋਖ ਗਏ ਚਮਰੇ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਉਧਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਟਰੇ ॥2॥

In Kalyug too Naam the supreme Substance, delivered Bhagat Jan. Naamdev, Jaideo, Kabir and Trilochan got delivered and all sins of Chamaar Ravidaas jee were washed away. All those who got into Gurmukh Naam, got delivered and all their sins were washed away.

Here I believe their Gurmukh naam received from Guru bhagat ramanand got them mukht because their guru was pooran.

Lastly, Read this shabad –

siqjug siqgur vwsdyv vwvw ivsnw nwmu jpwvY]

In Satyug, Vishnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vaheguru reminds of Vishnu.

duAwPir siqgur hrIikRsn hwhw hir hir nwm ijpwvY]

The True Guru of Dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vaheguru reminds of Hari.

qRyqy siqgur rwm jI rwrw rwm jpy suK pwvY]

In the Treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vaheguru tells that remembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

kiljug nwnk gur goivMd ggw goivMd nwm AlwvY]

In Kalyug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vaheguru gets Govind recited.

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiex ivic jwie smwvY]

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

cwry ACr iek kir vwihgurU jpu mMqR jpwvY]

When joining four letters Vaheguru is remembered,

jhW qy aupijAw iPir qhW smwvY ]49]1]

The Jiv merges again in its origin.(49)(1)

(http://www.sikhitoth...p?ShabadID=5589)

The last line proves that only MEDITATION ON VAHEGURU MANTAR ALLOWS OUR SOULS (JIV) TO MERGE INTO ITS ORIGIN (VAHEGURU)!

Yes waheguru will merge one back but it doesn’t mean the others mantars will not work and it doesn’t say they won’t work. Bhai Gurdaas ji was in love with Guru Ji and the mantar received by Guru ji i.e. waheguru was the greatest mantar of them all for him. But same goes for other bhagats that received gurmantar from their gurus – for them that mantar is the greatest. But in Kaljug bhai Gurdaas ji does emphasise that ‘waheguru’ is the gurmantar however he does not say other mantars will not work. Maybe the process of japing waheguru maybe quicker but I cannot say for sure. All I can say is it’s all about love. Read this is from this thread http://www.sikhsanga...ad/page__st__10

saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.

Sachaa refers to truth who is vahiguroo exist in four kal (aad/ever lasting age, jugud/past, hai bhi/present, hosi bhi/future).

Sahib refers to vahiguroo in sargun form(human form) after when god transcedents its attributes into creation.

saach naa-ay means vahiguroo names is also truth.

bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar means even though vahiguroo has soo many languages or types of languages Vahiguroo can undestand yet one can only please him by one language which is language of love.

Gyani ji shares this sakhi of ramanand ji who was guru of bhagat kabir ji. There was one person who used to follow ramanand ji get spiritual discourse from him. One morning, when ramanand ji was going to take shower, this person fell on his feet asked ramanand ji please bless me with naam of God. Ramamand ji said, is this time to give naam? There is time for such discourses. He insisted and said, this is only time i can get to talk to you then there are always people around you. Ramamand ji, in bit of anger said- Bhaja Luta Maranga means run away i ll hit you with iron vessel. This person was extremely innocent and ran away and consider this phrase by ramanand ji as a mantar. He started meditating on phrase with lot of prem(love) and sharda(faith) he had already. When he became fully enlightened (brahmgiani), his popularity start increasing and he met ramanand ji and he asked - where did you get the mantar? He said, when i met you and you spoke- Bhaja Luta Maranga .. i have meditated on this. Ramananda ji start laughing and said that wasnt mantar. He replied, that's what i meditated upon considering that was mantar.

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Kaal Ji I understand where you are coming from and your knowledge is very similar to what Bhai Randhir Singh Ji believes in but I humbly disagree. That is only one interpretation you portray, which I do not accept because just like you my experiences of naam have been very different. But in gurbani gurmukh only means a brahmgiani/God/Sant/guru. Can you please point out places where it means someone less than a brahmgiani?

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