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Why Are So Many Moderate Sikhs Against Khalistan


hgsingh
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To the OP: If you are saying that people who don't want Khalistan are moderates, then are you calling the rest of us extremists?

Benti, to brothers and sisters: Please refrain from using tags like moderate and extremist. These words create divisions within a community. There are no moderates or extremists in Sikhi. We are all on the same team. We are all family.

Every Sikh wants Khalistan. There is not one community on this Earth that doesn't want their own homeland. Why wouldn't someone want an opportunity to take charge of their own destiny?

The two camps are divided into people who think Khalistan is attainable, and those who don't think it's attainable. It's not a question of want or don't want. It's a matter of whether or not the dream is out of reach.

Let's say the football club you support is doing really well. They sell-out the stadium every match. Their fans are some of the most passionate fans in the league. All of a sudden, the team starts to play poorly. They start losing games. Less and less fans start coming to the games. The team becomes abysmal, and a lot of fans just give up on it. They don't see the point in investing their time and energy supporting a team that always loses. The die-hard ones keep supporting the team. They keep coming out to the games. Some clever people might even label them "extremists". Now the team signs one of the best players in the world. They start playing well. They win almost every game. Fans start coming back and supporting the team, because they believe that the team can win the championship again.

^^This mentality is seen in every movement. People won't give you their support unless you can show them that the goal is attainable. People won't actively campaign for Khalistan, unless you make them believe its attainable.

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To the OP: If you are saying that people who don't want Khalistan are moderates, then are you calling the rest of us extremists?

Benti, to brothers and sisters: Please refrain from using tags like moderate and extremist. These words create divisions within a community. There are no moderates or extremists in Sikhi. We are all on the same team. We are all family.

Every Sikh wants Khalistan. There is not one community on this Earth that doesn't want their own homeland. Why wouldn't someone want an opportunity to take charge of their own destiny?

The two camps are divided into people who think Khalistan is attainable, and those who don't think it's attainable. It's not a question of want or don't want. It's a matter of whether or not the dream is out of reach.

Let's say the football club you support is doing really well. They sell-out the stadium every match. Their fans are some of the most passionate fans in the league. All of a sudden, the team starts to play poorly. They start losing games. Less and less fans start coming to the games. The team becomes abysmal, and a lot of fans just give up on it. They don't see the point in investing their time and energy supporting a team that always loses. The die-hard ones keep supporting the team. They keep coming out to the games. Some clever people might even label them "extremists". Now the team signs one of the best players in the world. They start playing well. They win almost every game. Fans start coming back and supporting the team, because they believe that the team can win the championship again.

^^This mentality is seen in every movement. People won't give you their support unless you can show them that the goal is attainable. People won't actively campaign for Khalistan, unless you make them believe its attainable.

well said

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The Sikhs that don't know an independent state is needed are living in a fantasy world. They want to believe Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj's time during wars there was no innocent Sikhs being killed by the enemy. They want to believe in fantasies that wars are only between good and bad people, where the bad peole are killed and no good person dies. Such delusions only lead to further denial of reality.

If you want Khalsistan, then start with the basics, do a lot of bhagti, increase your knowledge about the world, and teach others with respect about the hardships that people of PUnjab are facing in Punjab.

These arguments about Khalistan won't have an army to defend itself and we have no leaders....is complete nonsense. To veers and sisters who pose such questions. Did you ever ask how Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj took care of you in your mother's womb. The fire of maya was there too (don't believe me...read Sri Anand Sahib), but i never hear any of you asking how Maharaj protected you from the fire of maya in your mother's womb. You walk around with your blind folds on....asking dead bodies to help you. Don't be diluded you are in another womb and Maharaj is taking care of everything. Satguru has given us instruction on what to do.....why cry now......did you cry in your mother's womb?

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Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi

Bro these r not my points but these r contents of Rehatnama dictated by Guru Gobind Singh ji and use of word Sirgum by Guru Nanak dev ji .Those mona sikhs r welcome who r out of ignorance went the other way or swayed by others Bhai Rajnona has given the direction but others who has bad intention have adopted dehdharis or cuts hair just to call them modern take the example of a girl being a sikh who demeaned sikhi in reality show of MTV in roadies should not have any place in our fraternityand these kind of people have no regard for sikh saheeds.

I am a regular viewer of Roadies .. which season are u talking about ?? (season 1 to 9 ??)

and what was the name of sikh girl ?

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Did they die in vain? Depends on which way you look at it. If you mean did their sacrifice result in Khalistan, well then clearly not. What about the innocent people who died that didnt care about Khalistan or any other cause and just went about their daily lives? Did they die in vain? Yes they did since I'm sure that they would have prefered to have lived, rather than being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

This veer needs to read Zafarnama before speaking about topics that are related to Raj Karega Khalsa. Before this veers get's up to defend his post he should listen to Sant ji's speaches where he mentions Khalistan. I hope he doesn't take this as an offence, but this veer has read too many textbooks. One Gursikh asked another person how much he was educated. The person respond with saying i have a masters. The Gursikh says to him that you have nothing!!!! Don't be quick to defend, but understand what the Gursikh was telling the man with the masters.

When Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj went to war with the Mughals he did not ask the innocent people whether they want to stay oppressed or be liberated where you might lose your life. If you say stay oppressed then Satguru wouldn't fight and let the oppression continue....this never happened. Many people that fear for their life will choose to live in oppressed society than die standing up against the oppression. These innocent people that lost there lives during the wars of Satguru's time and they had nothing to do with the battles never died in vain. This veer and I had a discussion on perspectives awhile back and i was trying to deliver home to him that Gurmat is the only perspective accepted by Akal Purakh. It's good to know both sides, but when we speak of right and wrong, then we speak of Gurmat and this is the only correct perspective. However this veer is still reading too many textbooks. When anyone stands up against oppression in Gurmat, then no life is lost in vain. If you read Zafarnama then it's clear why not, but if you go on a witch hunt, then your mind will only see witches all around.

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>>To RebelSingh ... in November 1984 i as a child became pro-Khalistan. However in 2012 with Dr Manmohan Singh as Prime Minister of India, Sikhs at highest levels for India re the UN + Indian Army, a majortity of Sikh MP's + MLA's in Punjab at present ... i believe to work on Khalsa Raj as a concept is more important ... having said that if the current state of Punjab became Khalistan peacefully then I don't really think many Sikhs would oppose that (on the assumption that corruption, drug use and caste hegemony lessened in such a scenario + that a more just society was ushered in thereafter in Punjab).

Well the common thing is coz they dont understand the following things (in my crappy opinion):

1)Panjab/Sikhs were/was/is of a seperate country before british annexed it (and we wud like it back)

>>Absolutely correct, I don't think anybody will argue with you too much on the first part that's not in brackets

2)They dont understand the lies told 2 sikhs by nehru/gandhi, and how sikhs cudda had khalistan in 47', but were sold out by "our" leaders

>>Nehru may have lied, i'm not so sure Gandhi did in the sense of opposing Sikhs. Certainly Sikhs were sold out by our leaders to an extent ... but at the same time ... when Sikhs were a minority in Punjab ... our leaders playing hand was a bit weak due to population demographics ... but look that was 1947 ... let's look to 2012 and beyond (rather than strictly through the prism of 1984 ... which of course doesn't mean we should forget 84 or not continue to strive for justice/support for the victims)

3)They dont understand panjab has been bullied and discriminated since 47'

>>I think an overwhelming majority of Sikhs do understand that. I even think a majority of decent Hindu's acknowledge that

4)They dont know that Indian Govt was planning 2 invade Harmandir Sahib TWO yrs b4 it happened, n jus think that bhindrawale was a "terrorist" coz he had weapons inside there (So did Guru Hargobind)!

>>I think most Sikhs realise that Sikhs were "set up" from the get go by Indira on the whole Bluestar+Khalistan idea itself. An overwhelming majority of Sikhs never took Khalistan (coined by Congress) seriously until the unfortunate events of 84

5)They think it wont survive, coz it doesnt have coastal/sea ports (NEITHER DID MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH, IDIOTS), but there r various khalistan maps drawn up (look below)

>>Sea access is not necassary for a nation to function, several landlocked countries prove that ... however, let's get real with the maps ... the only place Khalistan can realistically be achieved (peacefully+democratically) is in areas of Sikh majority ... that would mean that a new Khalistan would in all likelihood not even include all of the current territory in the state of Punjab.

6)THIS IS FUNNIEST ONE - It WONT have a military 2 cope with pakistans invasion! LOL!! i aint even gonna go here, such is the dumb nature of the question! (But read the statement below)

http://storerooom.wo...e-mighty-sikhs/

>>Yep i'll ignore that point as well (though it does sadden me that Pakistan has a population around 7 times larger than the state of Punjab ... and a land area eighteen bigger than Punjab state)

7)They think ALL non believers (hindus/christians/muslims) will be removed from our lands! When in history (apart from partition) did we EVER EVER ethincally cleanse ppl out of our hoods'?

>>Very true. I'm not pro-Khalistan but I always support the right for my Sikh brothers that support the concept along peaceful lines to have the freedom to voice their opinion. To malign Khalistan by saying minorities would be ethnically cleansed is like judging Sikhs on the standards set by other folks in Delhi etc in 1984

8) Khalistan wud be poor economically coz india will "refuse" 2 trade with us?!? Well 400m ppl in india live below poverty line, is it me, or wud khalistan (with its beautiful food producin lands) actually call the shots on the price, not its starvin neighbours.

>>Agreed, I think mr rizzo (sorry i got your handle wrong bro :-) had brilliant points and with whom i mostly agree ... but Punjab would certainly be economical viable.

http://www.sikhiwiki...f_Khalistan.jpg - This is the most likely Map of khalistan (Panjab/haryana/Himachal/Northern parts rajastan)

>>Himachal + Haryana will never willingly agree to be part of Khalistan. I mean Nankana Sahib is hardly gana be inside any Khalistan so no point including the Sikh-hating Jatts like Sajjan Kumar inside Khalistan maps. Those maps are totally fanciful+unrealistic

http://republicofkha...RONT%20copy.jpg - This is one that i like, but unlikely (includes jammu/gang doab?/western Gujarat/Rajastan)

(I apologise if i dont come across intellectual, im jus a person whos still learning)

>>In conclusion bro, I believe we need to eradicate drug use amongst the young, eliminate the concept of caste within Sikh minds + look at turning all of India into a spiritual-leaning Khalistan as a pre-cursor to Global Khalsa Raj. Now I don't mean a Sikh Empire bigger than the British one ... but a world where there is justice and equality for all ... in such a world the Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message would flourish most.

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This veer needs to read Zafarnama before speaking about topics that are related to Raj Karega Khalsa. Before this veers get's up to defend his post he should listen to Sant ji's speaches where he mentions Khalistan. I hope he doesn't take this as an offence, but this veer has read too many textbooks. One Gursikh asked another person how much he was educated. The person respond with saying i have a masters. The Gursikh says to him that you have nothing!!!! Don't be quick to defend, but understand what the Gursikh was telling the man with the masters.

When Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj went to war with the Mughals he did not ask the innocent people whether they want to stay oppressed or be liberated where you might lose your life. If you say stay oppressed then Satguru wouldn't fight and let the oppression continue....this never happened. Many people that fear for their life will choose to live in oppressed society than die standing up against the oppression. These innocent people that lost there lives during the wars of Satguru's time and they had nothing to do with the battles never died in vain. This veer and I had a discussion on perspectives awhile back and i was trying to deliver home to him that Gurmat is the only perspective accepted by Akal Purakh. It's good to know both sides, but when we speak of right and wrong, then we speak of Gurmat and this is the only correct perspective. However this veer is still reading too many textbooks. When anyone stands up against oppression in Gurmat, then no life is lost in vain. If you read Zafarnama then it's clear why not, but if you go on a witch hunt, then your mind will only see witches all around.

This veer above is clearly a Gursikh and tries to follow Sikhi to a T. However, as a Gursikh, he will also know that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj did not only teach about principles... in this case the principle being that oppression should be fought against even if great sacrifices must be made, including life, in order to achieve this. He will also know that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj taught about practicality as well. When asked to show miracles in the Mughal court, Guru ji, drew his sword and said that the greatest miracle is the sword (kirpan) itself, because this is the symbol of direct action, by which, ones destiny can be controlled and changed... Kings can be overthrown and Governments can be changed. Guru ji showed practicality, in that will/intention alone does not suffice, and that the necessary tools or mechanisms are required to bring about change.

The above veer, who doesnt like to read textbooks, but I am sure is aware of the life Guru Gobind Singh ji, will be aware of the infinite so called 'worldly qualities' of Guru ji. He was a great General, musician, poet, diplomat, politican, saint, historian etc etc.

Perhaps veer ji could spare a few moments to think about the military genius of Guru ji and what steps he took to ensure victory for the Khalsa in countless battles. Even when Sikhs had to vacate Anandpur Sahib, how the application of sound strategy ensured that Sikhs were not wiped out. If veer ji could spare a few moments from his bhagti and read, 'Leadership in its finest mould, Guru Gobind Singh - R.N. Batra', alot of detail has gone into showing Guru ji's leadership from a military perspective and how the battles were actually won.

We agree on one point... the Sikhi principle of liberating oneself and others from the shackles of tyranny. How we go about this process, however, is what this debate is all about. Now you'll have to forgive me if I sound like a bit of a coward and a bit too 'worldly' for you but if you offered me two different strategies by which to campaign for Khalsa raj - The first one lacked planning, coordination, resulted in huge loss of life, both of our fighters and also innocent people, resulted in huge economic destruction and never actually succeeded in bringing about Khalsa Raj in the first place (which is basically what happened from 1984-1995) or you offered me a second strategy which took alot longer, was better planned and coordinated with considerably lesser loss of life and resulted increased economic growth and actually suceeded in obtaining Khalsa raj, I would try and choose the second option.

Are you telling me that if I was a better Gursikh, did more bhagti and listen to Bhindranwala's speeches that I would be more inclined to follow the first option?

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Soory to interupt this important discussion but just to say I am happy that everyone is using the beautiful word ''veer'' in addressing each other in this discussion. add 'jee'' too after veer to make it veerjee, sounds even better hehe. Not only is what we talk important but how we talk and refer to each other. ...carry on.....

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Ek0sikh is saying, if some Sikhs ask for Khalistan rather than live as slaves under the Brahmin/central government controlled Police and Army in the Punjab, the central govt brahmins are black mailing us even today, in that, Ek0Sikh is saying that they will rape and kill innocent Sikh Girls, Sikh Boys, Sikh Women and Murder Sikh Men, AGAIN!. Like the rest of us EkOsikh admits that india raped and murdered Sikh Children, Women and Men (.25 million) back in the 80s and 90s because they wanted the Sikhs to remain as their slaves. Ekosikh is just saying that the indian/Brahmin government are still rappist and murderers in waiting and that we should be very careful and get much more organised before we try and fight our way out of this exploitation and slavery as otherwise he fully believes that the indian govt/brahmins will kill even more innocent Sikhs!

Let me make this clear- Ek0sikh didn't say this. but this is the general opinion these days except few hardliners who reiterate demand for khalistan.

quotes from comman man in punjab-

" we started with few issues but now we have more issues because one thing led to the other! both sides are guilty of taking wrong decisions which led to comman man suffering whether he was a farmer or a shopkeeper."

"i don't want to open my doors in the middle of the night to someone who claims to be fighting for me and get in trouble"

"Divisive thoughts are emerging from outside india only.99% people in punjab don't care about anything except leading a peaceful life." said by an senior adminstrator.

"completely blame Bhindranwale for using sikhs holiest shrine to battle against Indian forces hurting sentiments across the globe then led to Killing of Indira and then led to mass killings in delhi and punjab? if Darbar sahib was not involved in this whole tussle then do you think someone would have killed Indira leading to delhi riots?"

"Khalistan can survive without any help as we have our own agricultural land. what about travelling by air? would India allow us to do that through their boundary? what if they shot our planes? would we start a war with India?"

"people who can't fit in the social or political structure and are desperate want a seperate nation."

"Punjab has seen lots of development but there are still many issues. people have re-elected Badals as they have seen or done some good things for their area. you can't buy every vote. Panthic parties failed to even secure there deposits. what else shall i say?"

"Khalisatan movement was led or controlled badly. there are lots of examples of violations of maryada in many villages or cities. what if different groups emerge again and start bloodshed? if khalistan is in trouble form withine then who will we ask for help? India? or pakistan?"

"Sikhs are a minority and want peace with everyone. we have hindus and muslims living amongst us. they don't want to apply for visas to go to PATNA SAHIB or Nanded sahib like they do for nankana sahib and get treated badly by the authorities?"

many more to come......

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