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Why Are So Many Moderate Sikhs Against Khalistan


hgsingh
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I take your points California Sardar, but let me just clarify 2 points :

1) Nothing I mentioned is even geared towards the Hindus of Punjab. They already have a fire burning in their belly and that fire is for Hindustan...jai hind. Its not their fire I wish to stoke. They're already living in a Hindu country which places their religious needs above all. They have no Punjabi pride that can be nurtured into a freedom movement. As the notion of 'Punjab' means so little to them they are more than welcome to pack their bags and go and live with likeminding Hindustan nationalists.....where they can talk their hindi bindi language to their heart's content. The Punjabi pride I'm talking about is the one that inhabits the soul of nearly 100% of the Sikhs . And, lets not forget, that the ravidassias also have that Punjab pride which can easily be ignited.

2) Yes I'm aware of the geography of Ranjit Singh's Sikh Kingdom of Punjab. But that is exactly my point. We need to articulate clearly and concisely to everyone that the independence we seek applies only to what today forms the state of Punjab in India. Otherwise, when some of display maps of a free Punjab that includes the 1848 borders, we can't expect anyone to take us seriously. its like we're saying to the world "look.......look how stupid, unrealistic fantasists we are". We set ourselves up for a mighty fall whenever we show maps showing a khalistan that includes Lahore among other things.

Now...really is the time to galvanise and build on the unity of the Sikhs. Caste, now more than ever, is completely irrelevent. Just look at what we witnessed the other week. We saw the Ramgharias from the Ramgharia Gurdwara in Gurdaspur at the forefront of the protest there. We've seen the Khatris from Delhi openly saying 'khalistan zindabad' and publicly voicing that there is no justice in India for a Sikh. To borrow a cliche from Italian football managers ; This is a good moment for us.

SSA WestLondonSingh, in ur opinion wat are the borders of the future independant panjab/khalistan going to be? coz i cant even b asked 2 reply back to sum of the mugs on here sayin, that demanding haryana/himachal/Northern Rajastan is ridiculous etc blah blah... This is what was given 2 us when the british buggered off, jus coz sum behsharam census form filling hindus disgustingly wrote hindi as their first language, doesnt mean that all of a sudden that land dusnt deserve 2 b given back! i agree with u regarding hindu panjabis, ive sed it before, they r backstabbers, always have been, how many of them stood up for us during the last 30+ yrs? They jus all stood there n watch their sikh neighbours get battered n butchered, they hardly ever put their neck on the line for sikhs like apnay have done for them. The panjabi suba movement in the 60's was for PANJABIS, but they made it into a sikh v hindu thing, so then r dumb leaders decided 2 make panjab even smaller, o well

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While I fully believe in sikh sovereignty, I still believe in Khalsa Raj over Khalistan. I believe Khalsa Raj takes precedence over Khalistan (peace of land be it Punjab/himachal/rajasthan/parts of pakistan).

Looking at things from socio-political aspect, all promises were given to us and broken afterwards and betrayal we went through...We definitely deserve whatever was promised to us and acknowledge the foundation of khalistan was laid when darbar sahib was attacked.

But when we look at things from strictly prophecy point of view its Khalsa Raj we are given Hakum by guru sahiban. That should take precedence over khalistan.

Some may argue in order to have khalsa raj, you have to have Khalistan. But that's not necessarily true.

Some may argue once you have khalistan, we would automatically have Khalsa Raj...again not true.

Khalsa belongs to whole world, cannot be limited to one country.

Once we have Khalistan, we cannot assume we automatically have - Khalsa Raj.

Usually after making country, whole other baggage of problems comes along with it. I cannot even begin to imagine that community which cannot even manage gurdwara properly, will somehow manage the country and it be somehow sachkhand with naam abhyasi gursikhs doing only naam/jaap/tap/seva etc etc. Sachkhand is what you make anywhere/anyplace.

I can just imagine in new khalistan, instead of punjab police abusing local it be panthic police and their holier than thou attitude on streets.

However, with all of above being said, we should keep fighting for sikh sovereignty(recent success- The Anand Karaj ACT) and equal rights for all . Being an country inside country- India is not just Oxymoron, its quite possible.

Just like UP or Kashmir, center has very little influence in those state. The reason we let center have influence in punjab because of our spineless leaders and spineless/ stubborn public keep voting for crooks(Congress/Akaali Dal).

Khalsa should leave the head ache of being trans national corporate country based on capitalism to crook politicians and just focus on individual jevan and be true sant-sipahi.

Khalistan = solution to some of the problems panth faces, one step fwd, two step backwards.

Khalsa Raj = solution to all problems as its divine hakum.

Very well said but I must add, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale said ' The Khalsa will rule when we all become Khalsa ' - Lets keep doing our Ardaas for out brothers who are trying to get back on the path properly and for ourselves as well, that Waheguru gives us the passion to keep our love and strength for Sikhi.

Why so many 'moderate' Sikhs are against Khalistan is due to two main reasons, one ignorance, the other lack of love for Sikhi.

Ignorance is to live and exist happily in the false paradise(or hell) of illusion, not sach. These people have no idea of the blessings awaiting us if we can achieve Khalistan. It reminds me of the story of Maharaja Duleep Singh. As the blue-eyed boy of Queen Victoria, unaware and ignorant that he was actually the displaced ruler of Panjab that had been shipped to UK , he once at a country club boasted to an English man that he was the happiest man in the world! However, many years later, when his mother Maharani Jind Kaur was brought to England and was secretly filling him with this truth of who he really was, he then met the same friend and said.... now I am the saddest man in the world!. Sach makes us aware of how much of hardships we suffered at the hands of the Moghuls and how with a million difficulties we slowly managed to rise up to become a nation and how that was stolen from us and how it is waiting to be restored back to us. Sach makes us aware of the strengths we possess that we could exercise to make Khalistan once it is achieved to be a great nation that will help to further the shan of Sikhi and guarantee Sikh raj. Ignorance however spawns inconfidence, confusion and low self esteem.

Lack of love for Sikhi makes us worry more about our mortgages, family, jobs , friends and work than about Sikhi. Those who love Sikhi deeply would easily recognise the value and importance of raj looking after dharam and feel the deep pain of raj having being stolen from us and will daily pray for Raj to be restored to us.Guru roop Khalsa Panth is the custodian of Sikhi together with SGGS and DSSS and hence pangs for raj to be delivered back to us.

As our love for Sikhi increases we desire Sikhi tp spread everywhere in the universe and for Sikhi to have a homeland of Khalsa Raj. In the house of Gurujee anything is possible. ''Sache sahiba kya nahi ghar tereh'' We have to pray , keep our faith and do everything it takes for Khalsa raj no matter how long it takes. Once we have the resolve it becomes a matter of when, not if.

T

Apologies, * brothers and sisters ! :)

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I feel a lot of blood was shed for Khalistan, a lot of mothers lost their sons and their pain is something we cannot comprehend. So to sit thousands of miles away and advocate any type of violent struggle is completely irresponsible. Unless you are directly on the front lines, we have no right to send our Punjabi brothers into a blood bath.

Having said that, independance should always remain in our heart, and seen as an ultimate goal. However, it is probably number 100 on the list of things that should be accomplished first. Lets start with problems we can realistically solve right now, such as drug abuse, respect for our unborn sisters, fake baba's and deras, corruption, education, employment, infrastructure etc.

Many of these issues are directly related to the current Punjab gov't, and have little to do with the central gov't. Having a few family members who are proud sikhs and employed by the Punjab police, I have had several conversations in which a lot of these problems have been explained to me. And issues such as drug abuse and its elimination is directly related to the Punjab sarkar turning a blind eye. Same can be said for the 9000 fake dera's across punjab.

Lets focus on getting our own house in order first, which would take years on its own. A great start would be competent leadership and ridding Punjab of the bloodsucker Badal.

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I very much agree with N30Singh, Sherdil and the Cali Sardar as stated below ... however, I'm gana focus my reply to West London Singh below

To the OP: If you are saying that people who don't want Khalistan are moderates, then are you calling the rest of us extremists?

Benti, to brothers and sisters: Please refrain from using tags like moderate and extremist. These words create divisions within a community. There are no moderates or extremists in Sikhi. We are all on the same team. We are all family.

Every Sikh wants Khalistan. There is not one community on this Earth that doesn't want their own homeland. Why wouldn't someone want an opportunity to take charge of their own destiny?

The two camps are divided into people who think Khalistan is attainable, and those who don't think it's attainable. It's not a question of want or don't want. It's a matter of whether or not the dream is out of reach.

Let's say the football club you support is doing really well. They sell-out the stadium every match. Their fans are some of the most passionate fans in the league. All of a sudden, the team starts to play poorly. They start losing games. Less and less fans start coming to the games. The team becomes abysmal, and a lot of fans just give up on it. They don't see the point in investing their time and energy supporting a team that always loses. The die-hard ones keep supporting the team. They keep coming out to the games. Some clever people might even label them "extremists". Now the team signs one of the best players in the world. They start playing well. They win almost every game. Fans start coming back and supporting the team, because they believe that the team can win the championship again.

^^This mentality is seen in every movement. People won't give you their support unless you can show them that the goal is attainable. People won't actively campaign for Khalistan, unless you make them believe its attainable.

I've been trying to read all of the posts. Everyone is making good points, but what about the logistics? How do we go about obtaining Khalistan?

Some members outlined the borders of Khalistan. I think more thought should be given towards the non-Sikhs that live within those borders. I don't think non-Sikhs want their homes to end up in Khalistan.

Would there be an armed struggle? India has tanks and aircraft. How do we fight against that?

I don't think a peaceful movement would work either. Peaceful movements only work in civilized societies. The British didn't abduct Gandhi and kill him in a false encounter.

I think the only way to create Khalistan is to do more parchaar. Spread our faith. The more people that embrace Sikhi, the better. There is no reason why all of India can't become Khalistan. I've said this before, and someone very wise stated that Hindustan cannot become Khalistan overnight. I agree. It will be a long battle, but I think it is the most effective way. More Sikhs means more Sikhs in government. Instead of fighting the government, we can become the government. More missionary schools and programs are needed, but you don't have to be a missionary. You can talk about Sikhi with anyone you meet. Whether it is at a bus stop, at work, or whatever.

52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh

# 27) "Sutantar Vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahi daenaa".

- Rule independently. In the affairs of government, do not give people of other religions authority / power.

I think you make a great point about the need to galvanize support from the common man and woman in Punjab, and you also rightly point out the problem with the term "Khalistan" and how it has a stigma attached to it.

However, this whole notion that there could be a broader Punjabi movement for a separate Punjab nation that is not synonymous with the desire for a sovereign Sikh state (call it "Punjab" or "Azad Punjab" or "Khalistan" or whatever) is a pipe dream.

Hindu Punjabis are never going to want an independent Punjab. The only Punjabis left wanting an independent Punjab will be Sikhs. So however anyone chooses to define and label the movement, it will be seen as a Sikh movement for an independent Sikh state.

If you don't believe me, check what happened in the 1960s when the Sikh leadership sought to divide Punjab along linguistic (rather than religious) lines. Did the Hindu Punjabis step forward and say "hell yeah, we're Punjabi and we want a separate state where our language is preserved"? No. They chose to identify themselves as native Hindi speakers even though they spoke Punjabi. If Hindu Punjabis could not be rallied by Punjabi nationalism then, they certainly are not going to be rallied by Punjabi nationalism now given what has transpired in the last 35 years.

The possibility that there could have been a movement for an independent Punjab where being Punjabi (rather than belonging to any specific religion) formed the basis for a nation came and went in 1947. Then, a state of Punjab could have been formed where no religion formed a majority (if the boundaries were drawn right, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus would each have been less than 50%). Now, given the Sikh majority of what remains of Punjab, asking for an independent Punjab means asking for an independent Sikh state.

By the way, I just want to point out that an independent Punjab has some historical basis, but what is now the Indian state of Punjab was never its own nation. Remember, Ranjit Singh's empire was only northwest of the Sutlej River (in other words, it didn't include Malwa). A majority of what is now Indian Punjab was either ruled directly by the British, or was part of one of several semi-autonomous Sikh princely states. Before then, it was mostly controlled by the Sikh misls, but it was not united as one nation.

Anyway, I think you make some great points about how we should handle things as a community (i.e. dealing with police, etc.)

I've said it before I'll say it again. Freedom...is a universal right.

>>Absolutely correct

The desire to be free is common to all mankind. Only a Sikh that has brain deformities would want his nation to be illegaly part of a country that tricked them into being part of that nation in 1947 by telling blatant lies and since then has murdered a quarter of a million of them and spits on them, rapes them, demoralises them, subdues them, enslaves them and ..ulmitately destroys them.

>>Respectfully Paji, i also hate the vast majority of corrupt delhi politicians who were involved in the attempt to wipe our Qaum out ... but there are those, like myself (who after the tragic events 1984 were obviously turned 100% pro-Khalistani after that) ... who now believe that things have moved on to a degree (Shaheedi of Bhai Jaspal Singh and several other examples notwithstanding) ... such that we can progress more concentrating on issues other than Khalistan in the short term (ie remaining within in the Republic of India with all states pretty much in support of the main ethos of the Anandpur Sahib resolution + subject to the centre implementing it ... as with the Anand Marriage Act). Also I think it's a bit much to say that we are "slaves" when the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the Chief Economist of India is a Sikh, the representative to the UN is a Sikh, the new head of the Indian Army will again be a Sikh and when 75% of the MP's + MLA's in Punjab are Sikh + 85% of the Punjab Police are Sikh.

The problem, as I stated many times before, is that we are not dealing with a civilised free country.

>>Totally agreed. There is no real respect for human rights in India (so let's be cautious about how we operate + defeat them from a position of strength rather than our current position of weakness in terms of drug usage, caste consciousness + other vices + demographic disadvantages)

Just think, if England was as 'democratic' as India there would hardly be a Scotsman and a Welshman alive today. In democracies, Scotsman and Welshman are allowed to hope for a free independent nation....They're allowed to think about an independent nation.....They're allowed to talk about an independent nation.....They're allowed to lobby for an independent nation....They're allowed to stand in elections on that platform and win as the candidate wanting indpendence. If England was a 'democracy' like India, James Bond (Sean Connery) would have been picked up the police years ago, hung upside down and tortured to death. Alex Salmon, the leader of the Scottish Assembly, would have been arrested, sentenced to death, taken to the capital and hung.

So....lets rmember this point, which ties in with my earlier points about the name of our nation.

>>I totally agree with you that this was how the Dehli Sarkars operated in the 80's + 90's

For the last 2 weeks, i have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that the Indians (army and police) have been examining every you tube and tv footage of the protests in Punjab. They have been identiofying each person that publicly uttered 'khalistan zindabad' and they have been hunting them down and arresting them.

>>Sadly i suspect you may be correct. However, I think Sikh media is thankfully more alert now.

I've always felt that this issue of 'semantics' is a real one. You just don't hear the word 'khalistan' coming from the mouths of Sikhs enough for it to become a reality.

>>To be honest i feel the word is over-used in 2012 ... and that we need to step up and address bigger issues relating to our Panth before even contemplating Khalistan.

Freedom movements and revolutions need momentum. I've always said that the term khalistan is the wrong one to use for our freedom. One reason, that I've already mentioned, is that it brings almost instant arrest and by default torture. Another reason, which I mentioned in a previous message, is that by using the term 'khalistan' we are failing to tap into the psyche of the common man and woman in Punjab. The common man and woman in Punjab, whilst not particularly religious, has a raging fire of Punjab pride burning in his or her belly. In order for the freedom movement to gain momentum, we need to tap into that raging fire. The mantra in Punjab and abroad, should not be 'Khalistan Khalistan'. It should be 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB'. Add in prefixes to 'Punjab' you want. But...our independent nation should be called 'Punjab'. Why ? Because thats exactly what it is. It will be the area which today is called the state of Punjab. The language of the country will be Punjabi. The people of the country are called Punjabis. It does exactly what it says on the tin : Punjab.

>>Good point ... but let's face it Punjabiyat doesn't have much to offer us ... Sikhi is the only thing of any value that Punjab has ever offered us ... and as we all know four of the Panj Pyaaray themselves were not Punjabi. Should we effectively contain ourselves in the tiny "tin" of present day Punjab ... or should we work to peacefully and constructively spread Sikhi like a virus through India ... so that the Sajjan Kumar types will never think "oh Sikhs are just 1.9% of the population let's kill them off because their dharam with its message of social justice and equality is a threat to established interests". Rather than wanting a return to fanciful maps ... let try work to ensure that there are at least more Sikhs in India than there are Muslims.

Who's the police and army gonna hunt and arrest when 99.9% of the population are publicly shouting Punjab mera des ?

>>True. An independent Punjab would be unstoppable if 100% of the people (or even 100% of the Sikhs) supported it. However, as you know, political support for Khalistan is actually a minority amongst Sikhs living in Punjab as evidenced by SS Mann's party not even getting a single MLA out of 117 seats. That's a pretty comprehensive rejection of Khalistan.

Like I said...when we state the term 'Khalistan' it conjures up images into peoples heads of a fantasy land. A fantasy land thats never been before so why should it be now. An independent 'Punjab' nation, on the other hand, has historical fact behind it. It was before and so why should it not be again ? It has legitimacy behind it. It makes it harder for our enemies to dismiss it as 'fantasy talk'.

>>History is exactly that - the past. Our aim should be to focus on the (bigger) issues that matter now + which will shape the future imho.

We Sikhs have had the same poor tactics for decades now. All we're achieving is death and slavery. We need to evaluate our tactics.

>>I agree. I think focussing our efforts on Khalistan ... when our dushmaan are even trying to splinter away from Sikhi the 15% or so strong component of Sikhs who call themselves Ravidassia ... is playing right into our enemies hands. Let's beat them on the simple stuff first. When we achieve that we'd be half way there. They are scared of Sikhi because if 50 million Jatavs (Ravidassia of Uttar Pradesh etc) like Mayawati of the BSP Party (not that I respect her as an individual or anything!) who revere Guru Ravidass Ji just as much as we do as Sikhs ... were to join Sikhi ... they would never manage to stop the onward path of Sikhi. If they splinter us from within they kill two birds with one stone. All 200 million plus Dalits of India are natural born Sikhs ... but the enemies of the Panth have the "divide+conquer" stuff down to a fine art.

Lets learn from the UK students last year. These beer swilling party animals sat down and actually analysed the crown control tactics used by Scotland Yard. The little students outsmarted Scotland Yard with good organisation and awareness of tactics. This is a problem we Sikhs have always had. Lets take the recent demonstrations in Punjab for example. In any other demo and police charge I have seen on the news from around the world, whenever a protestor is grabbed by a policeman, the protestors always rush in en masse and free their comrade. This is the common feature everywhere on earth except.........Punjab. Fat policemen with nothing more than a stick were grabbing hold of Sikhs.....but the other Sikhs were running away. Surely, with a bit of planning and tactics, the Sikhs of Punjab can always agree to never abandon a fellow Sikh. Not only would it free their fellow sikh but it ensures that the Punjab police would always be too scared of grabbing a sikh in the first place.

>>True (but let's not forget that 85% of those fat cops are mostly Sikh ... at least nominally)

Anyway, in conclusion, we need to re-evaluate our tactics. Right now, we need to tap into the emotions of the common man and woman in Punjab. That common man and woman, has a burning love of a free Punjab burning in their belly. Up untill now we've done nothing to keep that fire burning...because we've kept talk on a mystical concept that means nothing to their psyche : Khalistan.

Lets get some momentum going by keeping talk on the demand for freedom for 'Punjab'. A nation called 'Punjab'.

>>I think let's address the drugs + zaath/paath issues. I don't think anybody's democratic right to campaign for an independent Punjab should be stopped in any way ... but I really feel that it's a dangerous distraction from bigger problems and causes polarisation. Before Indira's evil campaign against our Qaum ... all so-called Hindu-Punjabi's would visit a Gurdwara at least once a year if not much more often in fact ... in my eyes anyone that bows before Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is a Sikh ... we need to stop polarisation from Hindu's and remember that if the first generations of Sikhs were composed of erstwhile Hindus+Muslims ... why cannot future generations be drawn towards Sikhi in increasing numbers as education increases amongst the Indian population? Surely 1 God + equality of all is a better message than the multitude of gods + goddessess along with Manu Smriti which advocates caste discrimination openly.

This battle for freedom will be won and lost over the media. Their size, their tanks and missiles mean nothing in this battle. The battle will be won by those who can best manipulate the media. We have no exuse to lose this battle.

>>I would add to this that demographics is a crucial challenge. Forget about sava lakh from the times of the Guru's ... in 2012 ... odds of 50 to 1 do matter ... so why not focus on getting Sikhs to a demographic critical mass first via good works that help the poor + downtrodden of India. Those people might be included on censuses as Hindu's ... but I firmly believe them to be natural-born Sikhs. Neither can we expect everyone to have full kes overnight ... there need to be a critical mass of honest sehajdhari's within which Khalsay genuinely dedicated to Sarbat dha Bhalla (Amritdhari individuals) can flourish

From now on NEVER EVER fall into the Indian trap of seeing the Pakistanis and muslims as our enemies.

>>I strongly disagree with you on that. True that Bhai Mardana Ji was the first Sikh. However, let's not forget that the Muslim Jatt's killed off 300,000 Sikhs in 1947. Ie a hundred times worse than Rajiv + Sajjan Kumar etc planned in Delhi. In 1947 that was 10% of the Sikh population at the time ... ie the equivalent of if 1.5million Sikhs were butchered by Indira.

All of us here know that the reason we have made so little dents into the Indian machine over the last few years is because the Indians have cleverly manipulated us to fight their dirty war by proxy against the pakistanis. Lets get this straight...The pakistanis never were our enemies and never will be our enemies.

>>Hindu Punjabi's may have denied their mother tongue in 1966, but they will still give their daughters in marriage to Sikhs. Pakistani Punjabi's hate us a lot more and would never give their daughters in marriage to a Sikh. Pakistan's ISI does however see merit in using Sikhs to create an internal security issue so that they can work on how to eliminate the Sikhs of Kashmir in due course.

We Sikhs need to be on very friendly terms with the enemies of our enemy.

>>Yes the saying is that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" etc BUT...

i.e.....Pakistan and China.

>>BUT these two countries make India's human rights record look good. Do you really think Sikhs could hold the positions and wealth they do in India if Pakistan had won Punjab like they coveted in 1947? Do we really want to make deals with those who have great reverence for Aurangzeb and the evil regime that is trying to eradicate the Tibetan nation?

Be on friendly terms with the nations that would love to see India implode from within.

Ever heard of the 'Great Game' ? History tells it as the great game of polictics....and political manouvering. It was played between Russia, France and Britian. But guess who held the best cards in this great game ? Us. The Sikhs of Punjab. The object of the great game was to see who could gain control of the natural riches of persia. Russia, France and Britain realised that nobody could get a foothold without the support of the Sikhs. Great men from the 3 nations then would visit the Sikhs in Punjab and try and buy favours. The Sikhs would cleverly play with the minds of all 3 nations.

We Sikhs have proven ourselves historicaly of being able to play this game of media and diplomacy. We have before and we will again.

A free PUNJAB !!

>>Paji I salute your clear-cut hamdardhi to see our Qaum + Panth safe from our enemies ... but I respectfully disagree with you as to what our priorities should be in 2012. I genuinely believe that instead of raising say 10k for azad Punjab ... that the very same 10k can be much more beneficially deployed making the Sikh youth in Punjab mazbooth in their Sikhi to be able to withstand the temptations of drugs ... and to help the gareeb+downtrodden throughout India (regardless of their faith) and globally ... and combatting the proliferation of fake dera's + Sangat disunity amongst Sikhs through different Gurdwaras. Let's not give up the fight against oppression ... let's just fight it in a more intelligent, subtle and more results-orientated way. Obviously some say it's not possible to include Haryana in a new independent nation whilst others believe it can be despite 95% of the Jatts of Haryana like Sajjan Kumar being Hindu ... but do you perhaps see that we as Sikhs have the ability to aim for all of India in a longer term sense instead of restricting the message to 50,000 sq/km + thereby polarising the other 1.2billion to think that they can never join us?

>>Rabh Rakha WLS Paji + bhul chuk maaf ... i respect your position ... i hope you see that we are still very much on the same team to see our Panth flourish ... and I hate all the evil indian politicians + their goons who have escaped justice in India all these years just as much as you. I don't particularly give a stuff about the institutions of the central government in Delhi that have no respect for human rights for a wide spectrum of the Indian population (which is not limited to Sikhs ... as I really believe Sikhs are actually better off than hundreds of millions of innocent Hindu's in the wretchedly unjust state of India as it currently exists)

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SSA WestLondonSingh, in ur opinion wat are the borders of the future independant panjab/khalistan going to be? coz i cant even b asked 2 reply back to sum of the mugs on here sayin, that demanding haryana/himachal/Northern Rajastan is ridiculous etc blah blah... This is what was given 2 us when the british buggered off, jus coz sum behsharam census form filling hindus disgustingly wrote hindi as their first language, doesnt mean that all of a sudden that land dusnt deserve 2 b given back! i agree with u regarding hindu panjabis, ive sed it before, they r backstabbers, always have been, how many of them stood up for us during the last 30+ yrs? They jus all stood there n watch their sikh neighbours get battered n butchered, they hardly ever put their neck on the line for sikhs like apnay have done for them. The panjabi suba movement in the 60's was for PANJABIS, but they made it into a sikh v hindu thing, so then r dumb leaders decided 2 make panjab even smaller, o well

On what basis could we demand Haryana or Himachal Pradesh? That was not "given to us" when the British left. That's what was left of the original Punjab Province, which included a great deal of land that was not naturally part of Punjab (i.e. Punjabi was not the native language). That wasn't intended to be anything resembling a Sikh homeland. What do you think the purpose of the Punjabi Suba movement in the 60s was? It was to create a state where Punjabi was the official language. If all of Haryana and Himachal Pradesh fit that description, why the necessity to even have the movement in the first place? We could have just stayed put with "what was given to us". There are a few areas of Himachal Pradesh, Haryana and Rajasthan (mostly bordering Punjab) that have large Sikh populations and would naturally fit into the definition of Punjab. But they are rather small areas. The borders of any future Sikh state are essentially Indian Punjab.

Are you aware that Haryana is 90% Hindu and Himachal Pradesh is 95% Hindu?

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Ek0sikh, you say that this is a general opinion where as these are facts and figures I have read from many educated people, so yes they are my opinion. I don't suppose I can ask you how many Sikh Men, Women and Children you think we were raped, totured, disappeared and killed by the indian authorities in the 80s and 90s. I think, after discoveries by Jaswant Singh Khalra which was just for one area in a short space of time, it's close to .25 million. And I think that those Sikhs were raped, tortured, disappeared by the Indain Authorities, or the Indian Authorities Black cats and third agency dressed up a Sikhs. A Khalistani of any hue would not kill Sikhs!

So are you prepared to give your 'opinion' or not ?? i.e are you prepared to say, in your opinion, from what you have read, how many Sikhs you think were raped, tortured, disappeared and murdered by the Indain Authorities, including the Indian Authorities' Black cats and third agency dressed up a Sikhs? I just want a number from you nothing more, so, for example, you could believe 200 Hindus were killed by Sikhs, 400 Hindus were killed by the Indian Authorities, and 2000 Siksh were killed by Sikhs, and 250,000 Sikhs were killed by the indian Authorities, and their Police, Army, Black Cats, and third agency. Question A - Just give the number of Sikhs you believe were killed by the Indian Authorities!

Remember one thing, Sikhs we being killed by the Indian Authorities first i.e. 1978 to 1984 so Question B- How long did you expect the Sikhs not to fight back for? How long?

Question A - Just need a number of Sikhs, you think, were killed by Indian Authorities in the 80s & 90s?

Question B - Just need the number of years, you think, the Sikhs should not have fought back?

Sikhs were not killed in THOUSANDS before those years. They got butchered in thousands after these major historic events.who did most damage to the innocent sikhs (not with ak47's)? I hope that you understand that our LEADERSHIP (same point as Balait_da_Sher) took wrong decisions and got us killed in thousands .....

Sikhs got killed in thousands after attacks on Darbar sahib. Indira made a blunder but some mistakes were made from our side as well.

general opinion which i have heard and kind of settles down in me as well -----Same kind of people are shouting Khalistan and will save themselves but get others killed....(maybe more those 12-15 thousand as said by Khalra commission).

If you think Indian govt killed those 15 thousand sikhs then think again as many "moderate"(sorry i have to use this word) believe Delhi wanted an excuse to overrun people and our holiest shrine and OUR people gave them that EXCUSE. whom should we blame?

the repercussions were severe like a nuclear explosion and we are still suffering.

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In my opinion, Sikhs are Being oppressed and denied our homeland because collectively, we are ignoring Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. People dont read it, gurdwaras don't have it, people like darshan ragi say it is not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Without Sri Dasam Granth sahib, nothing will happen.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji brings us closer to Waheguruji. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib destroys our enemies

But I digress. This is another issue

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just coming back to the original question. One thing that didnt help in the orginal movment was the burning or demolishing of liquor stalls/tobaacco kiosks, and such. Becasue of this people got the notion that in Khalistan Sikhi would be forced on them, and this was a bad move for the movement.

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