Can Sikhs Still Be Considered Martial

[dalsingh101]

I think a lot of us would admit that militarily and physically Sikhs aren't what they used to be. We've become 'tamed' to an extent. Sikhs may be more assertive than most other Indians, but then Indians usually set the bar quite low in this department. Today, people are more likely to perceive a Sikh neighbour as a friendly, harmless fellow rather than a fighter.

Truth is that most Sikhs today are more concerned with things other than fighting. Plus we haven't even got a strong culture of physical training anymore like say Californians have, though this is slowly changing.

Personally I think the warrior or martial thing stems from a particular psychology/worldview which then influences how a person lives, where they value their independence over all else and prepare, physically and mentally, for conflicts and this becomes a way of life. Pathaans are an excellent example of this. I think, push comes to shove, most apnay dream of status, wealth and comfort over all else these days. Make of it what you will.

[fightingsingh]

Sikhs are just the same as any other community. The majority of our members are civilians (non-martial) and we have a proportion of our population who are involved in the military and may be considered 'martial' - this is no different to any other community.

Then you have non-military/police personnel who you may regard as 'martial' but are actually civilians. They could include practicing martial artists or pro fighters. Others could be people that work in front line security such as doormen, security guards and bodyguards. Others could be political and religious activists. Most of them are not necessarily trained fighters. In this group I would include Kharkus of the 80s. They would also include activists associated with certain jathebandian such as some followers of Taksal or followers of Baljeet Singh Daduwal for example. Also groups who campaign against beadbi such as the Respect for SGGS campaign. Then you have street gangs like Shere Punjab fighting against Muslims and stopping exploitation of Sikh girls etc.

After that, you are really scraping the barrel with the last group, who I would simply describe as thugs. Individuals who basically just like to brawl and are not scared of doing so. I would place sharabi punjabis that fight in bars and clubs in this category lol.

The above is my breakdown of what I regard to be martial in this day and age. Clearly, we as a community are not fighting for survival like we were 200 years ago against the Mughals etc. We have diversified our professions from being purely warriors to undertaking a variety of professions. Most people nowadays have no real reason or motivation to be martial unless they are in the military or categorised in one of the groups that I have mentioned above.

It is hardly surprising that Sikhs are not as martial as they used to be. Neither is any other community. They all have the same kind of cross-section that we do.

Pathans are living in a war zone and their pattern of existence is no different to how it has been for hundreds of years. Hence you have a greater level of firearm ownership amongst them. They live in a tribal environment so it is necessary for ordinary civilians to protect themselves as such. Thats not to say that they are any better at fighting than anyone else. Its just that things have not moved on for them. They are still trying to meet basic needs and survive on daily basis.

The difference with Sikhs is that 'martial' is strongly embedded in our faith and our teachings but not so much in other faiths. However, it is unrealistic to expect every Sikh to be a dangerous warrior when the stimulus to do so simply does not exist in the way that it did 200-300 years ago.

[hgsingh]

Sikhs are to be saint soldiers

So either they should be training in combat or military

What stops sikhs from being profesionals and joining the military

Sikhs got soft and get slapped around

[dalsingh101]

Interesting theory above that seems to boil down to communities becoming 'martial' when circumstances compel them to be, which is a fair point and explains a lot.

It also strikes at the notion that some peoples are innately 'martial' and this manifests itself naturally where ever they may be.

If the above theory is right then we can expect our community to become more and more 'demartialised' as we integrate into more stable environments over generations, unless of course the sh1te hits the fan.

So in essence the martial element of our faith becomes a relic or symbolic in times of prolonged peace.

Oh well, at least we have a nice philosophy to explore in such times.

I guess the only true test of how 'martial' we still are would come if things around us fell apart and we found ourselves in dangerous anarchy.

That being said, I know a fair few of us probably probably feel that a short of emasculation of Sikh males taking place alongside with our increasing worldly successes.

The big question is whether a people can quickly push themselves back into 'militant' mode at relatively short notice after a long period of inactivity on this front, if the 'you know what' ever hit the fan quite suddenly?

We live in interesting times, and I don't think many communities development and progress has left so many traces from its earliest conception like ours has - we are like a living social experiment.

Even if we can't expect people to be dangerous warriors like a few centuries ago, letting them slip into outright goofy, nerd territory like so many brothers seem to do these days is pretty lame. and invites trouble from more virile communities. lol

[VanHelsingh]

Even if we can't expect people to be dangerous warriors like a few centuries ago, letting them slip into outright goofy, nerd territory like so many brothers seem to do these days is pretty lame. and invites trouble from more virile communities. lol

So when was the time you last displayed your virility, dalsingh? Please, this a family forum so nothing saucy.

[dalsingh101]

ਮੈਂ ਹੋਗੀ ਆਂ, ਹੋਗੀ!!!

ਹੋਗੀ ਨਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਨੀ ਪੰਗਾ ਲੈ ਸਕਦਾ!!

ਨੋ ਬੋਡੀ!!

What you after Kaljugi, juicy details on the Internet.......lol

You know what I'm getting at dude! I know 'geek chic' is 'in' but come on.

[fightingsingh]

Interesting theory above that seems to boil down to communities becoming 'martial' when circumstances compel them to be, which is a fair point and explains a lot.

It also strikes at the notion that some peoples are innately 'martial' and this manifests itself naturally where ever they may be.

If the above theory is right then we can expect our community to become more and more 'demartialised' as we integrate into more stable environments over generations, unless of course the sh1te hits the fan.

So in essence the martial element of our faith becomes a relic or symbolic in times of prolonged peace.

Oh well, at least we have a nice philosophy to explore in such times.

I guess the only true test of how 'martial' we still are would come if things around us fell apart and we found ourselves in dangerous anarchy.

That being said, I know a fair few of us probably probably feel that a short of emasculation of Sikh males taking place alongside with our increasing worldly successes.

The big question is whether a people can quickly push themselves back into 'militant' mode at relatively short notice after a long period of inactivity on this front, if the 'you know what' ever hit the fan quite suddenly?

We live in interesting times, and I don't think many communities development and progress has left so many traces from its earliest conception like ours has - we are like a living social experiment.

Even if we can't expect people to be dangerous warriors like a few centuries ago, letting them slip into outright goofy, nerd territory like so many brothers seem to do these days is pretty lame. and invites trouble from more virile communities. lol

Some very good points here.

'In peace prepare for war. In war prepare to peace.' - Sun Tzu

The problem with our community as a whole is that during peace we dont prepare for war. We are slow to react to events. History has shown that when a sufficient stimulus has been applied to us, we do respond, albeit very slowly. If you look at 1947 partition, it took Sikhs about 6 months to a year to react to Muslim attacks and organise themselves into jathas and protect the community. When they finally got their act together they did ok but too much damage had already been done.

In 1984, after the Darbar Sahib attack and Delhi riots, it took Sikhs two years to get something together. It wasnt until 1986, that the Panthic Commitee was formed and the Kharku movement was properly organised and put into action.

A smaller example relates to racist attacks on Sikhs from the NF in the UK in the 70s and 80s. Again, it took our community years of racist abuse and attacks before people started to get their act together.

'It also strikes at the notion that some peoples are innately 'martial' and this manifests itself naturally where ever they may be.'

Yes to the above, it almost certainly does. I dont believe that we should take our 'martial heritage' for granted. Noone is born a great warrior. It does not surprise me to see 'emasculated Sikh males' nowadays. People only become 'tough' if they are exposed to certain stimuli, namely conflict/violence. Some people get it through military training, others through martial arts and others still just by living in a rough neighbourhood - there are many ways. However, one thing is for certain, you dont become 'tough' just because your ancestors were 'tough'. If you havent been exposed to the same stimuli you just wont be the same person.

The context of 'martialness' that we are talking about now is Community Safety. It relates to how will our community respond when the shyte hits the fan. It is a complex and multi-faceted strategy. It involves everything from quick information exchange and getting people together quickly to what statements will our leaders be issuing in the press to calm tensions and how we will use our links with the police, politicians and counsellors to step in asap. As an example, in the 84 riots, the Sikh community in Mumbai paid off the Hindu Extremist Groups (Shiv Sena etc) to ensure that Sikhs were not killed there. Community safety strategies have as much to do with calming things down and easing tensions as they do with mobilising groups to smash peoples heads in.

Unfortunately, we dont take these kind of things seriously. Iv tried talking about this to people in Gurdwaras etc and they just look at you as if you just stumbled off a banana boat. Its no surprise that when the shyte does hit the fan, Sikhs hit the streets in blind rage and waving naked kirpans, only to end up getting battered and running off. What more can you expect from angry civilians who have never thrown a punch let alone stabbed anyone with a sword. Then we all moan and cry about how Sikhs have lost their martial spirit and things are not how they used to be.

The key is organisation and prior planning. We seem to have this in-built superiority complex that we are a martial race so we dont need to plan for anything. Having said that, I was impressed to see how Sikhs managed to mobilise during the UK riots last summer. There were regular facebook updates and texts going around and people were able to get together quickly around the Gurdwaras and respond quickly to threats. This kind of thing is a step in the right direction, certainly in the UK.

Regarding exposure to violence/conflict - this is very difficult for most people. Especially for a community that is becoming increasing affluent and middle class. But there are still ways - martial arts, combatives, TA, cadets, contact sports, seeking out certain jobs that bring on conflict such as door/security work and police work (or police specials). But this is geared more towards the individual that is seeking out experiences that will make them more 'martial'.

I doubt that much will change. We seem to be going through the same patterns over and over again. Its genocide after genocide with us. Nobody wants to think about how to plan about stopping the nxt one.

[hgsingh]

many sikhs fear joining the military yet say they will fight if sikhs are attacked how can they fight

if their to scared to train

[GuptUnknown]

many sikhs fear joining the military yet say they will fight if sikhs are attacked how can they fight

if their to scared to train

. Just a question veer ji, can i ask your age? Also are you in the military? If so please desrcibe your expierences

[hgsingh]

. Just a question veer ji, can i ask your age? Also are you in the military? If so please desrcibe your expierences

to young to join right now