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Can Sikhs Still Be Considered Martial


hgsingh
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What the heck is the solution to this? I've wracked my brains (which didn't take too long, lol) but it's the one issue I can't find a solution to. It's a huge problem prevalent in the religious (on the surface) as well as the non-religious -- basically a huge issue for mankind as a whole.

Come on. There are a hundred and one things we could do top down and grass roots that could help foster feelings of unity and loyalty to each other. Literature, media and most importantly family discussions play a part. I mean take a look at the very things that work against this, casteism in films and song, competitiveness - the unhealthy jealous kind we are good at etc. etc. Low self esteem or idolisation that makes apnay crawl up x or y's backside and back stab their own. lol All these types of things could be countered in different ways. You'd never end them, but we could do a damn sight better than we are now IMO.

Mankind in general might suffer from this problem but different groups have it in different levels. It's arguable, but I'd say our cohesion is pretty poor compared to some others out there.

Anyway, I've said way too much on the topic of the thread. I've made my points as clear as I can, I'll now try and graciously bow out.......

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What about that link I posted were sikhs can learn about sikhism be saint soldier and the military

If the gurdwaras get taken over by youth they can set it up so youth learn sikhism and how to be a saint soldier

Sikhs need to prosper but same time keep military tradition

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Before you read my comments, understand that I appreciate yours, they clearly emanate from someone who isn't simple minded and it is a pleasure to exchange with someone who has obviously given some thought to these matters and has many valid observations to make. Reading your posts has brought a few things sharply into focus for me regarding the direction in which we are heading. And although you've done an excellent job in conveying your opinion, I still disagree with many of them. So take what's written below as critical reflections. In the end, neither of us can claim to know the possible outcomes of various strategies with anything remotely approaching a strong degree of certainty.

Lets be frank, the fact that such people are dwindling leaves us open to a lot of abuse in the UK. And the cavalier way you describe the people who did have the balls to stand up, like it was minor thing says a lot. Especially when the lack of such people is very conspicuous now, as are certain problems we keep having from certain people. Problems that are deep, attacks on the very fabric/structure of our society. Which can't solely be defeated through physical means, though this has its place.

You bring into focus the different needs of our scattered Sikh communities in your post. It's true that my focus was probably on the UK and its issues. Although we are linked to our brethren back home, I still think the smart plan is to focus on solving your immediate problems and those in your vicinity rather than unrealistic overreaching. Just personally, regarding the problems in India, I don't know if all out war with India is a good idea. Lately I've felt that it would be much better for Sikhs to seek to influence other Indians with their culture, lifestyle - win them over so to speak. We know that forces over there have persistently maligned us, we need to reverse this. If there is a place where Sikh thinking (as exemplified by our Gurus, not today's Sikhs) is not only needed, but also has a natural home it is India. In short India needs to be a Sikh country, we need to spread and grow there and not confine the faith in the web of Panjab's agricultural issues.

The striking examples of all those wonderful exceptions, who bravely countered the general trend, starkly highlight one of the main underlying points about my arguments, that when you send large groups through any system/institutional set up like the army/police, the majority become drones and you're playing a dangerously unrealistic game if you think we can always rely on people like those iconic exceptions to balance things out. So whilst you might think the strategy you suggested may produce potential, independent minded/spirited warriors for our own cause - in reality, what you most likely would end up doing is creating a lemming horde. Whatever the idealistic, youthful opinion of brothers like hdsingh is, few people can resist the impact of socialisation/indoctrination - to overlook this is to be blind. Plus it is foolish to imagine that authorities watching any 'Sikh' military unit wouldn't keep a seriously close eye on what goes on amongst the ranks - they always have, and historically they've been pretty good at that stuff, especially with us. Influences which impart free thinking, belonging and loyalty to an outside group (which is what you are talking about) will be EXACTLY what authorities will be watching out for - and counteracting!

In any case, to undertake anything of significance (as you alluded to) depends largely on our cohesion and loyalty to each other and the idea of our being one community, our own patriotism if you like. But we are SO behind in this respect, that you know damn well that any big move we would make under the current situation would be beset by treachery and ambition by our own. That's what we really need to work on right now.

I guess a big difference between our thinking relates to India and whether it is time for all out war? This is where my thinking has changed of late. Seeing as the economy is rising and has so much potential, personally I feel that Sikhs should be getting poised to rinse that <banned word filter activated> out. If India thrives, our people are too shrewed not to profit from it and seeing as what most Sikhs really seem to want is a better lifestyle (lets be real here, truly religious impulses animate a minority of people's actions), I question their stomach for war. Genuinely, I feel that globally Sikhs may be on the cusp of affluence like they've never had before - whether the effect of this is positive or negative, who can tell? But if the UK is anything to go by, affluence with result in a even bigger decrease in 'martiality' (I think I made that word up...hehhehehe).

I agree with a lot of your points. By describing the UK vigilante groups in the way that I did, I was not looking to disrespect them or their efforts for the community. However, I was simply trying to categorise them on the 'martial scale'. Merely pointing out that they are tough guys from the streets rather than a trained organised unit. I also was not demeaning their role or their importance for the community regarding battling Pakistani gangs or having a physical presence on the streets. Obviously, their existence and activity opens up a whole new debate about what is the best strategy to tackle some of the challenges that our community faces in the UK.

This raises questions such as, are vigilante groups the answer to the grooming problem? How does it portray our community in the media? What effects does their existence have on community relations and what impact does it have on ordinary Sikhs living their lives? Are we barking up the right tree by turning the grooming issue into a communal problem? The point that you raised about Sikhs having stomach for all-out war in India, is also relevant in the UK. Will these groups start off a race war that our community cannot win and is doomed to lose? People have different opinions on these individuals. Some regard them to be heroes and others regard them as trouble makers.

I am not claming to have the answer to all of these questions but it is important to ask them before we reach a consensus. Clearly, the role of vigilante groups must be discussed in the context of solving wider issues that affect the Uk Sikh community.

I agree with you that we as UK residents should get our own house in order first before we think about solving problems in India.

Regarding India, I totally agree that all-out war with India is a bad thing for the Sikhs as we are not ready for it and would come out of it badly. We suffered tremendously last time and we would suffer even worse this time. Again this opens up a whole new debate about what the agenda should be for Sikhs in India.

For me, I believe that Sikhs should consolidate their position in India in order to safeguard their rights. This means that we need to prioritise economic growth in Punjab. We need a greater level of Sikh parchaar in Punjab to increase the number of Sikhs. We need stronger Sikh institutions such as schools etc.... we basically need more power full stop. If we are going to safeguard our rights, then it has to be on back of smart diplomacy, smart strategy, greater vision and a desire to integrate with the Indian systems, rebuild our networks and channels and use the system to our advantage. I believe that we need to put Khalistan and Human Rights issues on a slight back burner as its not really getting anywhere and these are a barrier to progress. The same rhetoric has been spiralled for 30 years round and round like a goldfish bowl and it has not gone anywhere. Im not saying that these campaigns should stop, they can continue at a lesser pace so that other campaigns can develop.

After all, no one is going to give the Sikhs a homeland on a plate. It is a long term strategy that can only be achieved if the community is strong and we have overcome issues of cohesion, infighting and loyalty that, as you have already mentioned, we are already battling. We also need greater numbers, greater political influence, greater economic might and stronger institutions - none of which can be developed if we go to war with India. In fact, we need the total opposite.

The point about the armed forces - we will have to agree to disagree. I see the armed forces as an investment for the future. It is a resource that we should try to infiltrate, influence and tap in to in order to fulfil our own agenda. Sure, the establishment and government will also be working hard to retain their influence over it as well and monitoring it very carefully, but to me, this is just part of the battle. It is a power game like all the others - who can exert their influence over it the most, that is the question.

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I don't think he said people should hang around with gangsters. But one thing is for sure, your frame of mind or thinking will be shaped by the kind fo sangat you have. If you hang around couch potatoes who watch star trek all day, then that is what you will become(i.e. couch potato). If you hang around real mards who are hardened in the ways of the street you will not be easily bullied. It's still shocking to see UK Sikhs are being bullied by Paki Punjabis. Such a phenomenon is unheard of in any other part of the world. In all immigrant communities from South Asia in the west, Sikhs usually have the reputation of being strong, tough. But after living in the UK for 3 generations, many UK Sikhs have become weak(sorry but it's true) who easily get bullied by paki punjabis who historically have always been dominated by the Sikhs.

EDIT: I changed the original word I wrote with weak since the original word may offend many people.

ERM Johnny, u do realise that its MIRPURI Kashmiris who u r talkin bowt, NOT Pak Panjabis, Pak Panjabis already learnt their lesson @ partition, where they started the communal killing of sikhs, yet it was them who went crying to the UN of the muslim massacres by sikhs. The Mirpuris r criminals by culture, thats y they get away with anything in their own household, yet sikhs and pak panjabis respect each other n r similar in expectations of their kids (getting good job/education etc). Ever noticed how all the radio/tv presenters of pak origin r always pathan/panjabi, hardly any mirpuris (apart from 1).

u live in uk ur whole life n u havnt figured out its mirpuris NOT panajbi paks

Jonny it happends in canada and america to

9 11 look what american sikhss

LOL no it doesnt, sikhs never get bullied by pak panjabis/pathans, raaas only certain sikh sangat canadians say dis.

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