Raise Your Voice Against The Curse Of Casteism In The Sikhs

[bally712]

'Sardar' RebelSingh...i see you are a fellow Lutonian? i must say your knowledge of gurdwara (and associated histories) in Luton is razor sharp......! Back in the day there was no gurdwara and maharaj di bir was brought to the old beech hill school every sunday, then money was raised by EVERY caste (esp members of the (democratic Indian Workers Association) and a gurdwara was purchased on the Portland Road. In the early 80s with more and more punjabis being resident of Luton the old prejudices came through - not from the old timers i stress - but more from the newly arrived and then the Chamars (or hindus as you quaintly put them) bought a place of worship in 1984. Lets bring it back to the present day, i go to both gurdwara and i'll tell you something, apart from the fojjees very few english born youth go to both gurdwaras - its a common theme. But to disparage the Ravidass gurdwara in Luton is plain wrong. There are many old time (paihleeah - as they say in punjabi) families that attend there and when its a main occasion it gets full up, just like any other gurdwara out of the main hubs of southall, slough, brum, leicester and wolves. itd be good to have a face to face conversation with you bcos youre the new generation - and the future of sikhi - and itd be good to get like minds together; just a suggestion, Chardia Kala

[RebelSingh]

'Sardar' RebelSingh...i see you are a fellow Lutonian? i must say your knowledge of gurdwara (and associated histories) in Luton is razor sharp......! Back in the day there was no gurdwara and maharaj di bir was brought to the old beech hill school every sunday, then money was raised by EVERY caste (esp members of the (democratic Indian Workers Association) and a gurdwara was purchased on the Portland Road. In the early 80s with more and more punjabis being resident of Luton the old prejudices came through - not from the old timers i stress - but more from the newly arrived and then the Chamars (or hindus as you quaintly put them) bought a place of worship in 1984. Lets bring it back to the present day, i go to both gurdwara and i'll tell you something, apart from the fojjees very few english born youth go to both gurdwaras - its a common theme. But to disparage the Ravidass gurdwara in Luton is plain wrong. There are many old time (paihleeah - as they say in punjabi) families that attend there and when its a main occasion it gets full up, just like any other gurdwara out of the main hubs of southall, slough, brum, leicester and wolves. itd be good to have a face to face conversation with you bcos youre the new generation - and the future of sikhi - and itd be good to get like minds together; just a suggestion, Chardia Kala

well my friend i didnt mean 2 cause any offence 2 any1 here, so if ur offended by watever i sed im sorry, But i didnt refer 2 the chamaars as "hindu", i sed in my post that the chamaars that i kno of, jus attend the main Guru Nanak Gurdwara, n the only ppl ive seen attending the ravidass building was hindus (panjabi 1's, i believe that i recognised). Also i dont kno if ur takin the mick out of me by sayin my knowledge is "razor sharp", but im only in my mid 20's, n i only wrote of wat i kno of lutons sangat. Also u say i disparged/be-littled the ravidass gurdwara? how is that? didnt i say that i was a kid that didnt know wat/who ravidass even was? also didnt i mention that they were doing aarti infront of Guru Granth Sahib ji, which i havnt seen at gurdwara b4, n sumthin which im sure is anti-sikh. Stop gettin offended/cryin over nuthin, i was like 12 yrs old i think at the time.

So if ur an expert in history of luton sikhs, well then gud 4 u paaji. to be honest u and i both kno that the reason the gurdwaras all over the country r no longer being packed by the new generation, is coz committees do nuthin 4 the sangat, no matter wat u sugggest, and its all in panjabi, not in english, which is wat we all want. Ps - that portland rd gurdwara cracks me up man, the panjabi school classes were soooooo cramped, like 60+ students in tight tight rooms.

[UKLondonSikh]

CALI = 60-70% of Sikhs are jatt

UK = Paji, with respect, imho this figure is not correct. If the initial census figures provided by the Britsh are discounted and not extrapolated from the 19th century we are likely to see that ... 50% of sehajdhari Sikhs have Jatt ancestry and 50% have non-Jatt backgrounds. Of course, 100% of Amritdhari Sikhs reject the whole caste system and are "casteless". Obviously in the Diaspora, the percentages don't break down 50/50 but in India, amongst non-Amritdhari's the 2011 Indian caste census will most likely confirm the 50/50 breakdown.

CALI = I am very critical of jatts, as I think they are probably the worst in the quam when it comes to maintaining rehat. How many jatts keep their kesh? How many jatts refrain from drinking? I say this being a jatt myself.

CALI = But while jatts have their shortcomings, there is another very big reason why any discussion of caste inevitably ends up with people blaming jatts for the majority of the quam's problems:

CALI = Most sikhs are jatt!!

UK = As explained above, the split is 50/50 however, it's correct to say that because the Jatt tribal ancestry is most prevalent in areas such as East Punjab, Pakistani Punjab, Haryana, Western UP + Delhi outskirts + various parts of Rajasthan that people often label KS Brar and KPS Gill and Charan Grewal + Gurinder Dhillon (of the Radha-Saomi's) for their anti-Sikh actions with a reference to their backgrounds. It's safe to say that non-Jatt groups do have their own shortcomings but are not quite as influential collectively due to their smaller individual percentages and are not quite so blatant at proclaiming their backgrounds especially in popular culture.

CALI = Jatts numerically dominate and will naturally get blamed for most of the problems. Who is to say we would be any better off if a different caste/tribe formed such a majority?

UK = You're absolutely right. In Kenya another group is numerically stronger but sadly they too have formed Gurdware with exclusionary committees. This cancer of caste is within our Qaum as a whole and we the youth in the Diaspora need to eradicate it in the spirit of 1699.

CALI = Anyway, whatever shortcomings jatts have, they embraced Sikhi in larger numbers than any other group. Without jatts embracing Sikhi, Sikhi would not have much of a presence anywhere.

UK = Paji if people embrace Sikhi but still believe in caste superiority there is no point in those folks being Sikh. They might as well return to Hinduism + Islam where they are free to marry within their own caste and keep the bloodline pure by marrying their own cousins etc. Historically there have been millions of Amritdhari GurSikhs who ancestry wise may have been from a Jatt tribal background before they took Amrit but whose actions and lives as Khalsay gave collective pride to all Sikhs. The same goes for the Amritdhari GurSikhs of other backgrounds. Hence, Sikhi will always have a presence throughout the world because to be Sikh is to automatically de-link oneself from any notion of pride in one's background.

REBEL = tbh paaji, i dont think any chamaars go 2 it, they jus go 2 the Guru Nanak Gurdwara, coz evrytime i walk past the ravidass place, its not very packed, and its just got hindus in it.

UK = That's the thing Rebel ... if at the Ravidassia Bhawan ... they bow down before SGGS Ji Maharaj ... they are clearly Sikh (regardless of certain cultural practises which Indira + Congress worked hard at accentuating).

REBEL = One time wen i was a kid me n my cousin out of curiosity went inside, coz i didnt even kno wat ravidassi was/meant.

UK = i think every Sikh naujawaan ought to know that by default we Sikhs are all true Ravidassia's in the sense that we bow down before Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words daily ... as our enemies are trying to separate an integral arm of the Sikh Panth away from us. Look into Ramdasia history as well Rebel and you will see how close Sikhs are to the people we are nowadays quick to (incorrectly) class as Hindu's.

BALLY = 'Sardar' RebelSingh...i see you are a fellow Lutonian? i must say your knowledge of gurdwara (and associated histories) in Luton is razor sharp......! Back in the day there was no gurdwara and maharaj di bir was brought to the old beech hill school every sunday, then money was raised by EVERY caste (esp members of the (democratic Indian Workers Association) and a gurdwara was purchased on the Portland Road.

UK = That's how Sikhi was back in the early times Bally. Every pind in Punjab had a single saanjha Gurdwara. And look at the anti-thesis of Begumpura that we have created in Punjab nowadays. What's worse is that even in the Diaspora in 2012 the Sangat is not 100% united in every single locality.

BALLY = In the early 80s with more and more punjabis being resident of Luton the old prejudices came through - not from the old timers i stress - but more from the newly arrived and then the Chamars (or hindus as you quaintly put them) bought a place of worship in 1984.

UK = Note the timing as well Bally. In order to weaken the Panth, Indira seized on the idiotic vestiges of belief in jaath-paath within the community and exploited that to the maximum. Dera Sachkhand Ballan are now trying to finish what Indira and her casteist friends started.

BALLY = Lets bring it back to the present day, i go to both gurdwara and i'll tell you something, apart from the fojjees very few english born youth go to both gurdwaras - its a common theme.

UK = Bally how can we encourage them when we don't even have a saanjha Gurughar? Only youth from Luton such as yourself and Rebel can do what's right before God's view and what's right according to our beloved contributors to the SGGS Ji Maharaj. In every town where we have bakhre Gurdware let's form united youth committee's to work for the welfare of ALL within our Panth as a pre-cursor to having a single Gurdwara per locality and work hard at increasing links between youth of different Gurdware. Increased interaction is the key. A bigger anti-Sikh phenomenon than Swindon that we need to fight aggressively is matrimonials which exclude turban wearers or insist upon a Jatt or Ravidassia or Ramgarhia groom etc, etc.

BALLY = But to disparage the Ravidass gurdwara in Luton is plain wrong. There are many old time (paihleeah - as they say in punjabi) families that attend there and when its a main occasion it gets full up, just like any other gurdwara out of the main hubs of southall, slough, brum, leicester and wolves. itd be good to have a face to face conversation with you bcos youre the new generation - and the future of sikhi - and itd be good to get like minds together; just a suggestion, Chardia Kala

UK = Naah Bally what it is, I'm sure Rebel didn't mean to disparage the Ravidassia Gurdwara itself but perhaps only some of the cultural practices he may be unfamiliar with. I'm sure if you and him were to meet up you'd see someone who is passionately against caste discrimination and I know Rebel is proud of the massive contribution that those with ancestry similar to Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj have contributed to Sikhi whether it be the dedication of Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha to the time of Banda Singh Bahadur when Sikhs of the same ancestry such as yourself played a crucial role in pushing the Mughals back. In short, all we need to do is return to the mindset of 1699 rather than the present and stop the mentality in Doaba where fools are putting "Putt Jattan De" and "Putt Chamara De" on their cars as if by doing that they are somehow contributing to Sarbat da Bhala

[JSinghnz]

You are obviously referring to jatts here.

I am very critical of jatts, as I think they are probably the worst in the quam when it comes to maintaining rehat. How many jatts keep their kesh? How many jatts refrain from drinking? I say this being a jatt myself.

But while jatts have their shortcomings, there is another very big reason why any discussion of caste inevitably ends up with people blaming jatts for the majority of the quam's problems:

Most sikhs are jatt!!

Jatts numerically dominate and will naturally get blamed for most of the problems. Who is to say we would be any better off if a different caste/tribe formed such a majority?

Anyway, whatever shortcomings jatts have, they embraced Sikhi in larger numbers than any other group. Without jatts embracing Sikhi, Sikhi would not have much of a presence anywhere.

The main purpose of this thread is to create an awareness against the caste system in Sikhism

which has no place in our religion.

[bally712]

hey listen rebel, if youre in your mid 20s that means i am less than a decade older than you are. and its not me "crying" as you put it, frankly man i dont really gove a stuff whether people have prejudices or strident views as long as they are based on some kind of knowledge, education and awareness of history: the world didnt begin on the day me, you or anybody else was born. You mention aarti of the GGS (which by the way i dont agree with and i have only ever seen once in a gurdwara) like some chamar/ravidassia exclusive practise when theres documented evidence that the jatt used to do it after consulting their personal bahman soothsayer back in the day until it was considered a faux pax, though its still done nowadays in punjab when people have 'pahht' at their jatherih - fact.

fair enough you say you didnt know who ravidass was, but what about kabir?what about dhanna? what about namdev et al? i wasnt around when they were walking on this earth but i still tried - and still am trying - to learn our history. age aint no excuse. read, educate, question, summarise and THEN propogate. Anyway this has gone well off topic but i hope the sentiment still resonates, chardia kala

[panthicunity]

ਹਰਿ ਭਇਓ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰਿਓ ਹਸਤੀ ਚੁਨਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥

हरि भइओ खांडु रेतु महि बिखरिओ हसतीं चुनिओ न जाई ॥

Har bẖa▫i▫o kẖāʼnd reṯ mėh bikẖri▫o hasṯīʼn cẖuni▫o na jā▫ī.

The Lord is like sugar, spilled onto the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

ਕਹਿ ਕਮੀਰ ਕੁਲ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਂਤਿ ਤਜਿ ਚੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਚੁਨਿ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥੩॥੧੨॥

कहि कमीर कुल जाति पांति तजि चीटी होइ चुनि खाई ॥२॥३॥१२॥

Kahi kamīr kul jāṯ pāʼnṯ ṯaj cẖītī ho▫e cẖun kẖā▫ī. ||2||3||12||

Says Kabeer, give up your ancestry, social status and honor; be like the tiny ant - pick up and eat the sugar. ||2||3||12||

[RebelSingh]

hey listen rebel, if youre in your mid 20s that means i am less than a decade older than you are. and its not me "crying" as you put it, frankly man i dont really gove a stuff whether people have prejudices or strident views as long as they are based on some kind of knowledge, education and awareness of history: the world didnt begin on the day me, you or anybody else was born. You mention aarti of the GGS (which by the way i dont agree with and i have only ever seen once in a gurdwara) like some chamar/ravidassia exclusive practise when theres documented evidence that the jatt used to do it after consulting their personal bahman soothsayer back in the day until it was considered a faux pax, though its still done nowadays in punjab when people have 'pahht' at their jatherih - fact.

fair enough you say you didnt know who ravidass was, but what about kabir?what about dhanna? what about namdev et al? i wasnt around when they were walking on this earth but i still tried - and still am trying - to learn our history. age aint no excuse. read, educate, question, summarise and THEN propogate. Anyway this has gone well off topic but i hope the sentiment still resonates, chardia kala

wow so much crap written here, wudnt kno where 2 start.

so u were a smarter 12 yr old than i was, coz u knew who ravidass n other bhagats were? Congrats, u want a blue peter badge or sumink? i have learnt bowt sikhi from bowt 14 yrs of age n upwards, thanks 2 khalistani merchandisers turning up at our gurdwara in late 90's handin out leaflets, which switched my brain in 2 gear, havin seen pics of the widows of 84', n i havnt stopped since.

So yes we r all learning, but at diffnrt times and place and pace. u learned bowt sikhi earlier than me, well gud 4 u, but dont try tellin me that age aint no excuse etc. tatti, wen the environment around u has 2 provide 4 u 2 learn. Well mine didnt, urs probably did, well done. cannot believe how menstral ur gettin over this, grow up.

btw how high is that horse that ur sittin on.

[bally712]

that horse is on the same level as the shelves where all those books on grammar, spelling and prose reside.....your missive's are all in text speak, like some street hood in west london, why do you do that? Youve been educated, you must surely be able to spell? Put your point across in english.

my reply wasnt a challenge and not emanating from some self perceived higher standing. But surely if one wants to put their views across on a religious forum – whatever that be – it should be based on some kind of education? Otherwise whats point? If it has no gravitas its a pointless view, based on a knowledge base of zero. And Im not having a go at you, listen theres bare people out there that spout nonsense on forums because – well – because they can. Why should I give any time to consider your views? Your job (and mine) Is surely to put up a compelling argument, get people who read this great forum thinking, cause some kind of combustion in those cells in their heads to make them think, consider, reason – otherwise whats the point?

ps. u talk about khalistanis changing your views? Good, im glad,. But then havent you wanted to get the other side to the story, If only for balance? What about Babbar Khalsa? You read about them? their aims? If not, why not? Why is their philosophy distinctly different to Khalistanis or any other sikh organisation come to that? Had you seen their reps that day you met the khalisatnis would you be a fully paid up member of the BK now? I can only assume yes.

Listen, to be honest, I only used to come to this forum to read the views of the members originally and im gonna revert back to that status because I cant get into discussions with people that havent a broad view of subjects – its a futile exercise.

Anyway, chardia kala my veera, all the best

[Shamshere]

that horse is on the same level as the shelves where all those books on grammar, spelling and prose reside.....your missive's are all in text speak, like some street hood in west london, why do you do that? Youve been educated, you must surely be able to spell? Put your point across in english.

my reply wasnt a challenge and not emanating from some self perceived higher standing. But surely if one wants to put their views across on a religious forum – whatever that be – it should be based on some kind of education? Otherwise whats point? If it has no gravitas its a pointless view, based on a knowledge base of zero. And Im not having a go at you, listen theres bare people out there that spout nonsense on forums because – well – because they can. Why should I give any time to consider your views? Your job (and mine) Is surely to put up a compelling argument, get people who read this great forum thinking, cause some kind of combustion in those cells in their heads to make them think, consider, reason – otherwise whats the point?

ps. u talk about khalistanis changing your views? Good, im glad,. But then havent you wanted to get the other side to the story, If only for balance? What about Babbar Khalsa? You read about them? their aims? If not, why not? Why is their philosophy distinctly different to Khalistanis or any other sikh organisation come to that? Had you seen their reps that day you met the khalisatnis would you be a fully paid up member of the BK now? I can only assume yes.

Listen, to be honest, I only used to come to this forum to read the views of the members originally and im gonna revert back to that status because I cant get into discussions with people that havent a broad view of subjects – its a futile exercise.

Anyway, chardia kala my veera, all the best

It is futile to have a level headed discussion with this RebelSingh. This is the same guy who thinks if Khalistan is formed it should comprise of all of Punjab, himachal pradesh, Haryana even though the latter 2 states have a very large Hindu majority. He is clearly living in a dream world and has an aggressive tone.

[Sherdil]

Why do people always have to take things to extremes? We don't have to all intermarry for this caste issue to go away. Why can't we just learn to get along? People stuck to their castes back in the day, but they still fought side-by-side.

The people discriminating against other castes don't know Sikhi. If a Jatt doesn't let a Chamar take prashad from the same place as other people, then that Jatt isn't a Sikh of the guru.

I'm from a Jatt background. I'm proud of it. It's part of my blood. It's almost like an ethnic group within itself. That doesn't mean that I think I'm better than people who aren't Jatts. A lot of songs big-up Jatts, but that don't mean other people gotta develop an inferiority complex and start hating on us. Those songs are for us. Go ahead and rep your people if you want, nobody is stopping you.

What about all the songs repping Punjabis, and saying how we the best? You think Gujjus or Tamils get <Edited> off? Maybe we should intermarry with them so we don't have any beef.

Why stop with South Asians? Maybe every ethnicity around the world should intermarry so that we would end up with one generic race and have world peace? Probably not gonna happen.

Respect each others differences and treat each other as equals.