Dhunda Does It Again Beadbi Of Sri Dasam Granth

[Jonny101]

l

[mrsingh12]

1. I have never heard of anyone being called professor out of respect. It is usually an academic qualification. Hence, you are admitting that Ragi Darshan has no adequate academic qualification to justify the professor name he uses?

2. Ragi Darshan does not agree with any banis that are in Sri Dasam Granth!! He has never stated he is in favour of the "good bits", he has flatly condemned all parts. Can you show me proof of Ragi Darshan speaking in favour of Jaap Sahib, Twaiye Prasaad Swayaie, Chaupai Sahib? Doesn't he also say that nitnem/amrit banis in their current format are fake?

3. No respected scholar holds Ragi Darshan's/Thailand Wala/Ghagga/TIger Jatha than Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi. The same jaggi that wrote a pro and anti SDG thesis. Who wins the battle --> Pro Dasam Granth led by Prof Sahib Singh/Kahn Singh Nabha/Kapur Singh ICS/Giani Gian Singh/Giani Ditt Singh/Kesar Singh Chibbar vs. Anti Dasam Granth led by Bhasouria/Dhunda/Ragi Darshan/Some guy from Ambala/Kala Afghana.

4. The parkash of SDG EQUAL to the great 11th master of the Sikhs is a no go. However, that doesn't mean you can justify trying to tear apart the writings of the amazing, brave 10th master just to suit your own agenda. Ragi Darshan is one of the dumbest people recent Sikh history has ever had. He had everything, respect of the Sikh Sangat's around the world, his parchaar was respected and he made a living. Now, all that is in reverse. Perhaps, sadly, the passing of his talented son has had an adverse effect?

[UKLondonSikh]

12 = I have never heard of anyone being called professor out of respect. It is usually an academic qualification. Hence, you are admitting that Ragi Darshan has no adequate academic qualification to justify the professor name he uses?

UK = Ok let's accept Paji that he is not a Professor of Mathematics etc, etc ... however, that isn't really relavant to the discussion ... if someone makes a commonsense observation that parts of DG do not resonate with the spiritual purity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and thereby by false association malign Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj then i believe every Sikh has the right to express concern over this issue.

12 = Ragi Darshan does not agree with any banis that are in Sri Dasam Granth!!

UK = Can you prove that Paji, with him saying that on a certified video? Remember a lot of the youtube stuff against Professor Darshan Singh Ji and Dhunda Sahib is doctored in order to discredit the core validity of their argument that the Birth of the Khalsa and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are what we should focus upon more ... rather than unwittingly falsely associating demons, goddesses and anti-Gurmat tales with Dasme PaathShah.

12 = He has never stated he is in favour of the "good bits", he has flatly condemned all parts.

UK = No Sikh on the planet would condemn those parts of DG which are in harmony which SGGS Ji Maharaj.

12 = Can you show me proof of Ragi Darshan speaking in favour of Jaap Sahib, Twaiye Prasaad Swayaie, Chaupai Sahib? Doesn't he also say that nitnem/amrit banis in their current format are fake?

UK = As far as I understand, he has no problem with the main thrust of the above but has expressed concerns about adulteration of the material and the appendage of certain things within the universally more respected parts. If the pro-natak crew have faith in the Durga stuff, the Vishnu stuff, Charitropakhiyan etc then I'm certainly of the opinion that those who maintain Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as being beyond parallel and looking towards our one present Guru Sahib as fundamentally the only guide needed by the Sikh Panth are in the right. And that is not to disparage the entireity of DG. However, if we have one litre of pure water and then add another 100ml of ammonia to it ... then I'm sure scholars would be entitled to say that the resultant mixture is not 1.1 litres of water or pavithar-thaa.

12 = No respected scholar holds Ragi Darshan's/Thailand Wala/Ghagga/TIger Jatha than Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi.

UK = I don't accept your premise one iota Paji. Let's say 100,000 scholars back up a political ideology called Islam that was invented by a slaveowner and paedophile called Muhammad. Whilst 10 scholars back up the truth of Sikhi on logical grounds. It doesn't infer that Sikhi is therefore untrue. Similarly, I request you to apply your own logic whether Sri Anandpur Sahib and the Birth of the Khalsa Panth is more relavant to Sikhi or was an alleged story from Bachittar "Natak" about demons etc, etc more important?

12 = The parkash of SDG EQUAL to the great 11th master of the Sikhs is a no go.

UK = I'm glad you acknowledge that Paji. That fundamentally shows we are on the same side. I hope you have the courage to further accept that given the controversial nature of some parts of DG or Bachittar Natak as the (entire) volume was previously known that joint parkash as occurs Sri Hazur Sahib and Damdami Taksal and elsewhere is a huge victory for the enemies of Sikhi who snigger at our blind association of the controversial parts of DG with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

12 = However, that doesn't mean you can justify trying to tear apart the writings of the amazing, brave 10th master just to suit your own agenda.

UK = That's the whole point Paji. No Sikh on the planet has got the himmat or aukaath to tear apart authentic writings of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But no way will Amritdhari GurSikhs allow our Dashmesh Pithah's name to be dragged into the dirt by false association with parts of the volume which are not even fit to be mentioned in the same breath as our Dasme PaathShah.

UK = If there was proper dignified debate about this matter I have every faith that our pro-DG brothers who have the exact same respect for Dasme PaathShaah would see the wood from the trees. Because like Dhunda Sahib says it should be the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib that holds the greater relavance in our minds rather than these Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, Vishnu and Charitropakhiyan type tales that we have unwittingly accepted without authentication or justification.

UK = I'd be interested to know your take on:

• Its October 7, 1708, Guru Gobind Singh merges into the Divine Light. Among his last instructions is the injunction that henceforth the Only guru of the Sikhs shall be the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. He also states that he will always render all assistance to The Khalsa but shall not do so when the Khalsa engages in Bipren Ki Reet (which refers in the main to: “false, discriminatory and idolatrous practises“).
  

• It’s the year 1734: Bhai Mani Singh is martyred in the present day City of Lahore.
  

• It’s about 1782: A man named Kesar Chibber writes a book called Bansavalinama.
  
• In this book he states that Guru Gobind Singh has written a book.
  

• For the very first time, 74 years after The Guru’s merger into the Divine Light, a written allegation appears that The Guru wrote a book.
  

• Bansavalinama is filled with stories about gods, goddesses, demons, fairies, homa, mantras, supernatural events, abnormal sex, curses, magical spells and all types of superstitious and godless trash.
  

• Kesar Chibber writes in his book that he has heard that Guru Gobind Singh had written a book called Sumander Sagar but that the book had been destroyed while crossing the Sirsa river!
  

• Then Kesar Chibber states that he has also heard that some other writings of The Guru were lost during the Anandpur Sahib battles.
  

• Chibber isn’t too sure what the name of the Guru’s book is. Sometimes he calls it Sumandar Sagar and sometimes he calls it Avtaar Leela. He can’t make up his mind. He never calls the book Dasam Granth. He does not describe the contents of the book.
  

• Chibber also says in Bansavalinama that in 1725 A.D. Bhai Mani Singh compiled a granth combining the Sri Guru Granth Sahib with other writings into One Great Big Granth. According to Chibber this might be the true Granth. No proof is offered.
  

• Chibber does not speak from his own personal knowledge. It is all hearsay.
  
• Chibber admits this, he says that he is only recording what he has heard.
  

• Many illustrious poets and writers like Bhai Nandlal, Bhai Mani Singh, Sainapat, Chaupa Singh, Sewadas and Koer Singh are present at the darbar of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. These poets and writers chronicle the Guru’s life and times but never mention that Guru Sahib has witten a book or a granth.
  

• If Guru Sahib had written a granth then why was such a significant document not mentioned anywhere by the illustrious Bhai Nandlal, Bhai Mani Singh or other chroniclers?
  

• 
  

• More time goes by, it is now about 1802: Saroop Das Bhalla writes a book called Mehma Prakash. He says that Chibber got it all wrong. Guru Gobind Singh never ever wrote any Granth or the Sumandar Sagar but had some Sanskrit literature translated and this granth was called Vidya Sagar.
  

• It’s 1805: Sir John Malcolm (1769-1833) visits Amritsar from Calcutta. With great difficulty he is able to procure a copy of The Adi Granth because the Sikhs jealously guard it and do not let strangers easily see it. Evidently a copy of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is provided for Sir Malcolm by Nirmalas who have “deras” outside the Sri Harmandir Sahib but are not allowed inside the Golden Temple. The Nirmalas are trying to obtain control of the Harmandir Sahib. Malcolm observes that the Nirmalas are doing a parallel prakash of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and a so-called dasam granth but this dual prakash does not occur inside the Golden Temple. These matters are recorded in his book A Sketch Of The Sikhs. At the end of his Book Sir John Malcolm clearly states that the Nirmalas will introduce changes in the Sikh Faith. He also observes in his book that aside from the Adi Granth, the Sikhs do not respect any other book.
  

• It’s 1810: The English take control of the Gurdwara at Patna – erected in honour of the Birth Of Guru Gobind Singh. It then becomes managed by a Hindu mahant and some Pujaris. There is is no institution of Jathedar at Patna and there is no takht (Throne) there. The English put Mahant Sukha Singh (1766-1838 and the author of Gurbilas Dasvin Patshahi) on an annual pension and he receives a regular supply of opium from the government. The English also provide Mahant Sukha with a regular supply of prostitutes from Calcutta. Such is the perverted condition of the First Guardian of the so-called throne at Patna. Of course the Mahant is not doing anything unusual since it is a common practise at Hindu Temples for priests to take in young widows who then became temple dancers and prostitutes (“devadasis“). John Malcolm in his Sketch of the Sikhs says that a heretical priest of the Nirmala order who is living in Calcutta has explained the Sikh religious texts to him.
  

• It’s 1811: Nirmala Sikh priests trained in Benares provide one Dr. Leydon with information sufficient for him to make a translation of the Guru Granth Sahib. At this time, the English have sent political agents to Amritsar and know that the Jathedar of the Akal Takht has power superior to the Sikh Emperor, Maharajah Ranjit Singh and that the latter is subordinate to the Jathedar of the Akal Takht.
  

• Its 1812: It’s an apex time for the Sikhs. The English armies have stalled in Delhi unwilling to take on the Khalsa Army to the north. There is only one Sikh Throne – The Akal Takht and only one Jathedar. There is only one unitary doctrine – The Guru Granth Sahib and only one surname : Singh (Lion) for the males and Kaur (Princess) for the females. The English start machinations for the gradual destruction of the Sikh Empire and the destruction of Sikhi. Fanatical Christian missionaries are salivating at the mouth to convert and enslave the Sikhs.
  

• It’s 1818: 84 years have passed since the martydom of Bhai Mani Singh. A book mysteriously surfaces in Amritsar claiming to be the Granth of Guru Gobind Singh as written by Bhai Mani Singh. This book has a strange and miraculous history. It is alleged to have been hidden by Bhai Mani Singh in a secret location and then discovered by a Muslim who kept it reverentially in his home in Multan until it resurfaced in Amritsar. The book is clearly profane since it mixes text from the Guru Granth Sahib with works claimed to be those of Guru Gobind Singh. The circumstances of this book has all of the hallmarks of that famous tribe of bandit story-tellers; who make their daily living by telling tall tales.
  

• More time passes. It is around 1850: Bhai Santokh Singh states that Guru Gobind Singh wrote a book called the Dasam Granth. This the first time the actual words “dasam granth” are used. He relies upon Chibber as his authority. He suggests that Bhai Mani Singh compiled the Dasam Granth
  

• Its 1878: the Gurmat Granth Parchar Sabha assembles in Amritsar, this is an ad-hoc committee of unknown origin and backing. It collects 32 books which it considers to contain portions of the writings of Guru Gobind Singh. These books are collected from libraries, gurdwaras, village sources and so forth. The purpose of this Committee is to collate the writings into a version that can be designated as the “Bani” of the Respected Guru Gobind Singh. None of the 32 volumes collected are authentic historical documents. This Committee calls the edited and collated document the Dasam Granth. The collated book is created without the consent or debate of the entire Sarbat Khalsa (“The Khalsa Nation in assembly”). There was no public Sikh debate on the construction of this book. The book is created by a Committee of unknown credentials and backing in a process sub rosa. Who is behind this committee? The Arya Samaj movement? The English?
  

• 1878 onwards: The ball starts to roll. Giani Gian Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh and some others start repeating the story of the dasam granth. They quote Bhai Santokh Singh as their authority.
  

• It’s 1897 Sir Khem Singh Bedi Sets Up The Sodak Committee: Sir Khem Singh Bedi claims to be a direct descendant of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and consequently claims to be the 15th Sikh Guru. He is a tout of the British and has been bribed by them to undermine the Gurdwara Sudar Lehar and the Singh Sabha Movement. He is knighted for his service to the British Empire. The Arya Samaj also uses him to strengthen Bipren Ki Reet (Brahminical Practises) in Gurdwaras and thus to Hinduize the Sikh Faith. He openly preaches that Sikhs are Hindus. He also claims that the Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the fifth Veda of the Hindus which provides the essence of Purans and Upanishads. The influence of the RSS and Sanatan Dharma in various Dehras owe their origins to Sir Khem Singh Bedi. The Sikhs of the time refer to him pejoratively as Khemu Ram. On the basis of finances given by the Arya Samaj, he sets up a Sodak Committee in 1897. This committee consists of his hand picked persons. The purpose of the Sodak Committee is to consolidate the 32 wildly different versions of the Bachitar Natak which had been introduced into The Punjab from Bengal via the Nirmalas between 1825 and 1895 . Sir Khem Singh Bedi is unsuccessful in this Endeavour but succeeds in introducing many Hindu texts and traditions into various Dehras (Sikh Cults). He accumulates an immense amount of wealth and builds a palace near Rawalpindi (in present day Pakistan, near the Afghanistan Border). He dies a painful death from a prolonged illness.
  

• It is around 1910. Books start appearing in mass circulation with the title Dasam Granth. The Arya Samaj under the hand of Swami Dayanand is behind the move. The idea is to hinduize the Sikh faith by introducing the idolatry of the “dasam granth” into the religion.
  

• A Hukumnama Is Issued: The Akal Takht responds to the threat of the Arya Samaj.
  
• A Hukumnama is declared: Sikhs must disregard the Dasam Granth, parts of it are fake.
  

• It’s 1921, the Mahants had been steadily assuming hereditary control of Sikh Gurdwaras since the loss of the Sikh Empire of Maharajah Ranjit Singh to the English. The English facilitate this takeover to weaken the Sikhs and their religion. The Jaito Ka Morcha agitation starts to wrest control of the Sikh Gurdwaras from the depraved Mahants. The Gurdwara Sahib at Nankana Sahib, the birth place of Guru Nanak, is controlled by a Mahant called Narain Dass. Panthic Knight, Kartar Singh Jhabbar, vows to free this Gurdwara. Narain Dass shoots down one hundred and thirty unarmed Sikhs agitating to free the Gurdwara. Kartar Singh Bedi, the son of Sir Khem Singh Bedi is a staunch supporter of Narain Dass.
  

• It’s 1945: Raja Gulab Singh of Delhi purchases the Bir allegedly written by Bhai Mani Singh in 1725. Sikhs start paying blind obiesance to the dasam granth bir without considering how controversial elements within it slander Guru Gobind Singh Ji via false association.
  

• It’s 1950: A suspicious letter surfaces. It is allegedly written by Bhai Mani Singh to Mata Sundri Ji. In this letter the inclusion of about 900 extremely profane and lewd verses (the Chritropakhian) into the dasam granth is mentioned.
  
• 
  
• This letter is universally exposed as a complete forgery by pro natak touts who wish to weaken Sikhi from within.
  

• It is around 2000: The book is now being printed with the title: Shri Guru Dasam Granth.
  
• The book is now being elevated to being called a Guru of the Sikhs with demands for parallel parkash.
  

• It’s February, 2010: The Great Pretender sitting on the Akal Takht (“Throne Of God”) , appointed head priest Mr. Gurbachan Brar, moves to excommunicate Singh Sahib Professor Darshan Singh Ji from the Sikh faith for voicing concerns over the authenticity of the dasam granth. Professor Darshan Singh is one of the greatest scholars on the Guru Granth Sahib. This outrageous act by a poseur is designed to still all voices of opposition and install an idolatrous priestly caste completely prostituted to political power. The decision is made by self-styled priests acting in a secret conclave and in the absence of Professor Darshan Singh (who is at Sri Darbar Sahib at the time). This is the first time in Sikh History that an ex-communication has occurred in a secret hearing where the Sangat is not present and where the accused is not afforded the opportunity to defend his views.
  

[Only five]

UK = If there was proper dignified debate about this matter I have every faith that our pro-DG brothers who have the exact same respect for Dasme PaathShaah would see the wood from the trees. Because like Dhunda Sahib says it should be the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib that holds the greater relavance in our minds rather than these Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, Vishnu and Charitropakhiyan type tales that we have unwittingly accepted without authentication or justification.

Can you tell us what Bachittar Natak means? Also Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj mentions history of Bhagat Prahlaad ji Maharaj, Bhagat Namdev ji Maharaj, Krishna, and much more, but like you say the birth of the Khalsa holds more relavance, then why isn't it put in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj like the history of Krishna and Sri Chand?

Sri Charitropakhyan, how do we understand such complex writing? How to grasp the complex world without falling victim to maya? Sri Charitropakhyan is amazing writing that explains the ways of many people in this world. Every father protects their sons and daughters from the evil of other people in this world. Satguru compiled Sri Charitorpakhyan for his Sikhs to learn before they get caught by this evil of others. Sri Charitropakyan is misunderstood by majority of the Sikhs. The wisdom in Sri Charitropakhyan is not graspped by many Sikhs because of their own lacking. They are over taken by kaam (lust) and can't see past their animal instinct. These Sikhs need to do more bhagti and then try again to read Sri Charitropakhyan. Through these stories Satguru is telling us how to be better Sikhs and how to avoid or get yourself out of circumstances which will be damaging to our jeevan. The world is not a box of chocolates. A person needs to be wise, alert, and trusting at the sametime. Read Sri Charitropakhyan with a clear mind and much wisdom can be gained.

[UKLondonSikh]

Only5 = Can you tell us what Bachittar Natak means?

UK = I think the Natak element of the title pretty much gives it away Paji

Only5 = Also Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj mentions history of Bhagat Prahlaad ji Maharaj, Bhagat Namdev ji Maharaj, Krishna, and much more, but like you say the birth of the Khalsa holds more relavance, then why isn't it put in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj like the history of Krishna and Sri Chand?

UK = Paji, first of all I'm not fit to question what should or shouldn't be included in our one present Guru. However, I would suggest that perhaps the birth of the Khalsa did not need to be mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib since the Khalsa Panth is active and relavant today, tomorrow and forever.

Only5 = Sri Charitropakhyan, how do we understand such complex writing? How to grasp the complex world without falling victim to maya? Sri Charitropakhyan is amazing writing that explains the ways of many people in this world. Every father protects their sons and daughters from the evil of other people in this world. Satguru compiled Sri Charitorpakhyan for his Sikhs to learn before they get caught by this evil of others. Sri Charitropakyan is misunderstood by majority of the Sikhs. The wisdom in Sri Charitropakhyan is not graspped by many Sikhs because of their own lacking. They are over taken by kaam (lust) and can't see past their animal instinct. These Sikhs need to do more bhagti and then try again to read Sri Charitropakhyan. Through these stories Satguru is telling us how to be better Sikhs and how to avoid or get yourself out of circumstances which will be damaging to our jeevan. The world is not a box of chocolates. A person needs to be wise, alert, and trusting at the sametime. Read Sri Charitropakhyan with a clear mind and much wisdom can be gained.

UK = That's fine Paji. That's your opinion. I respect the sincerity of your thought relating to why you feel that. In essence, the above answer implies that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj doesn't already give us the guidance on how we can escape falling victim to Maya and the other vices. I sincerely disagree with you (pyaar naal) and strongly believe that Charitropakhiyan was authored by scribes in the employ of the Mughals and anti-Sikh forces as a way to disparage the fundamental truth evident within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and to ridicule and cheapen the supreme greatness of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Paji I would merely ask you to look deep within your heart and ask your conscience about the fundamental two questions posed in this thread:

• Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations?
  

• Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?
  

[JSinghnz]

Awesome and very logical responses, UKLondonSikh.

Any one who understands basics of Sikhi will agree in totality

with all your views.

Only pretenders will keep on worshiping their devtas, avatars and demons

and keep believing in the fairy tales which have no place in Sikhi.

[panthicunity]

One more point - when mobs (like in 84) will come to burn us , they wont ask whether we believe in DG - same goes for police torturing and blind govts (like the french) banning turbans ......

we need to band together under one khalsa panth and teachings of sggs (not merely saroop) - while keeping mind that there will be differences .......that does not mean we jump at each other throats' with our kirpaans ...

My personal view is for anyone to make pro or anti Dasam granth point , they should have first studied guru granth sahib cover to cover ....

AS of prof dhunda , he assumes title of professor because post high school he studied SGGS for 3 straight years .... I dont know of any education better or higher than that in this world , and now he is professing what he learnt .....and also lets not get too caught up in semantics , that causes us to be not taken seriously and considered nit pickers ...

Here are two videos - in the first Dhunda is openly criticizing Badal and his durga wife (and praising bhai havara et al ) , in the second one he is speaking for bhai rajoana ( I have already posted his video about blue star )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrHRUw7CHM

[mrsingh12]

1. Ragi Darshan's fake professorship isn't relevant to Dasam Granth discussion, that is correct, but he should not be misleading people into thinking that he has academic stature by attaching professor to himself

2. What is a certified video? You are asking for a video then straight after saying that any video evidence I might find has been edited to be anti-Ragi Darshan. You cant have both. Here is evidence

3. You didn't answer the question of the academics who are for and against Sri Dasam Granth. Do you agree that Sikhism's most respected scholars back a pro-Dasam Granth stance? If they do, is Ragi Darshan more intelligent to spot something that they missed?

4. Has Ragi Darshan ever had santhiya of Sri Dasam Granth. How can one seek to evaluate the message given in religious scriptures when one has not even bothered to find the correct pronunciation. Isn't it santhiya first than katha later?

5. Can you please tell me why Thaliand Wala/Jeonwala/Ghagga/Dhunda/Jachak all have affiliations to the Gurmat Gian Missonary College? Isn't there something systematic about the anti-DG brigade

6. If you dont believe in Dusht Daman story, can you please explain Ragi Darshan in this below video.

Why has Ragi Darshan used DG for his own means two fold, once to make money then second to gain popularity (for the wrong reasons)

7. Why do you keep comparing the ideology of DG with that of the great 11th master of the Sikhs. If the ideology and the message is the same, then there would have been no need for DG to be written by our beloved, brave 10th master. DG has a totally different role to play in the Khalsa system.

8. That stuff you have posted in blue, it's tone suggests that no Dasam Granth has ever existed. Isn't that contrary to your position of there are good bits and bad bits, but there is a granth written by the great 10th master?

[UKLondonSikh]

12 = Ragi Darshan's fake professorship isn't relevant to Dasam Granth discussion, that is correct, but he should not be misleading people into thinking that he has academic stature by attaching professor to himself

UK = Like I said Paji, I believe the Sangat have more attached the label to him if anything. And besides study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the highest form of "study" possible.

12 = What is a certified video? You are asking for a video then straight after saying that any video evidence I might find has been edited to be anti-Ragi Darshan. You cant have both. Here is evidence

UK = OK Paji then i will go through it but nevertheless I've never suggested slavish adherence to Professor Darshan Singh for the sake of it, as I personally don't eat meat myself as one example, so one can still have issues with elements of DG even if Professor Darshan Singh is not comfortable with the authenticity of a greater percentage than I am. Youtube stuff is well known to be easily doctored but I'll assume your clip is genuine anyhow.

12 = You didn't answer the question of the academics who are for and against Sri Dasam Granth. Do you agree that Sikhism's most respected scholars back a pro-Dasam Granth stance? If they do, is Ragi Darshan more intelligent to spot something that they missed?

UK = That's right Paji. As we discussed, if 100,000 scholars back up Christianity and Hinduism ... but we as Sikhs don't have as many scholars to back up our argument ... that doesn't infer that the Truth of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj be abandoned as a result purely due to the opinion of some so-called scholars.

12 = Has Ragi Darshan ever had santhiya of Sri Dasam Granth. How can one seek to evaluate the message given in religious scriptures when one has not even bothered to find the correct pronunciation. Isn't it santhiya first than katha later?

UK = Paji i notice how you dodge the real issue at hand and fill in with some vague questions in order to package some kind of response but why dodge the bullet of whether the Birth of the Khalsa is more important in defining Sikhi or whether Dusht Daman and Durga Mata are more important?

12 = Can you please tell me why Thaliand Wala/Jeonwala/Ghagga/Dhunda/Jachak all have affiliations to the Gurmat Gian Missonary College? Isn't there something systematic about the anti-DG brigade

UK = I have no affiliations to them myself but a lot of Sikhs can simply independently see that those who accept 100% of DG without question or authentication (for example Sant Samaj who are in cahoots with Badal) are de facto maligning Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji even though they don't perhaps realise that unfortunately. You surely must realise Paji that all the Durga Pujari's within the RSS love the pro-DG crew?

12 = If you dont believe in Dusht Daman story, can you please explain Ragi Darshan in this below video.

UK = LoL, even if PDS was to tomorrow suddenly say he believes in Dusht Daman + Durga Mata + Charitropakhiyan etc ... I still wouldn't believe in those elements. Surely as a believer in the relavance of Durga Mata and demons etc, I thought you'd be overjoyed that PDS appeased your position back then by narrating what he did.

12 = Why has Ragi Darshan used DG for his own means two fold, once to make money then second to gain popularity (for the wrong reasons)

UK = That's down to him but nevertheless I salute his courage in at least lately having the conviction to reject (albeit perhaps belatedly) that which he perceives maligns Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Like the Chaalee Mukhthay at least he has stood by the Truth of Sikhi when it mattered. Death threats can hardly be described as popularity Paji.

12 = Why do you keep comparing the ideology of DG with that of the great 11th master of the Sikhs?

UK = Are you uncomfortable with that because in parts of DG it exposes "jameen aasmaan ka ferq" between the two - enough of a chasm such that all Sikhs are inevitably bound to realise in time that dual parallel parkash is a fundamental Beadbi in its own right.

12 = If the ideology and the message is the same, then there would have been no need for DG to be written by our beloved, brave 10th master.

UK = That's the whole issue Paji, certain parts of DG are not accepted or authenticated as being authored by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

12 = DG has a totally different role to play in the Khalsa system.

UK = Agreed, and I personally do not deny that role. However, parts authored by anti-Sikh forces have no role in strengthening Khalsa Raj. In fact they serve to dilute Sikhi and mentally restrict the heights that pure Khalsa Raj for Sarbat da Bhala can reach.

12 = That stuff you have posted in blue, it's tone suggests that no Dasam Granth has ever existed.

UK = Exactly, the current volume often called DG in the last 100 years is clearly an amalgamation of genuine writings of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj interspersed with irrelavant and degraded stories which serve no purpose other than to malign our Dharm and our Dasme PaatShah on behalf of the anti-Sikh forces that were responsible for their inclusion.

12 = Isn't that contrary to your position of there are good bits and bad bits,

UK = Nope, no conradiction, see above Paji

12 = but there is a granth written by the great 10th master?

UK = Of that I have no doubt ... but the Durga stuff, Charitropakhiyan and Dusht Daman stories are clearly not written by our beloved Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

UK = Nevertheless Paji, I respect the sincerity of your belief as to why you feel they are.

UK = But, in conclusion, I respectfully refer you to a couple of the main questions you left unanswered:

• Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations?
  

• Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?
  

[N30S1NGH]

Sri dasam guru darbar or sri dasam granth sahib is life line for sikhs. Whilst, sri guru granth sahib ji is shant ras for khalsa - sri dasam granth sahib ji offer immortal bani, cautions against social pit falls and offer bir ras- war scriptures.

Within Dasam Guru Durbar can be found three types of scripture:

1. 'Amrit Mai Baani' (immortal scriptures)

2. 'Yudh Mai Baani' (war scriptures)

3. 'Sansar Mai Abbeck dee Bani' (worldly scriptures of ignorance)

Most of protestant types not willing to accept sri dasam granth sahib ji or even bhai gurdas ji varan because their philosophy is soley based on abhramic version of God in Sikhi and one dimensional rigid protestant type thinking - not suprising at all as their lineage goes back to their british umpire. They super impose abhramic version of God on traditonal Gurmat. They don't believe in sikh version of Vahiguroo which is sargun and nirgun form. They all believe in western idea of god of jesus and moses- go to gurdwara every sunday like they are going to church..if they call those who believe in traditional gurmat beleive in sri dasam granth sahib ji and sri sarbloh granth- bhraminvaads, then on the same token they are christianvaadis as they beleive in abhramic version of god, as they beleive in Georgian calendar(nanaksahi calendar) based on western christian calendar, they have no theological concept if asked they come back with - God is one, sri guru nanak dev were mere messengers of god..i can write a book on them how they are christianvadis!!!!!!!!