Dhunda Does It Again Beadbi Of Sri Dasam Granth

[mrsingh12]

1. Which one is it? That he is a professor or he isn't? I'm just curious to know how he got that title, I know loads of Kathavachiks who know more than Ragi Darshan, they never been called Professor

2. You don't seem to understand my scholar based question. I am asking you straight. Do you believe the following scholars/giannis to have great/credible giaan of sikh philsophy and Gurbani:

Prof Sahib Singh

Kahn Singh Nabha

Kapur SIngh ICS

Giani Giaan Singh

Giani Ditt Singh

Piara Singh Padam

Bhai Randhir Singh

Bhindranwaley Taksaal/Nanaksar Mahapursh

If you do, then how do you reconcilliate their position with that of yourself and Ragi Darshan. I am trying to point out that the greatest academics Sikhism has ever made all back pro-DG stance. Why dont you accept this?

3. I am not dodging any bullet I am asking your fair questions? Do you agree that when kintoo prantoo is about to be done by someone on the writings of one of the greatest prophets ever seen, then that person should have done santhiya of that Gurbani first, off a respected teacher, than learn the meanings of that Bani using the various Teeke, instead of reading it at face value.

3. Do you know if any anti-DG has had santhiya and been taught meaning of DG at proper level?

4. It isnt a fight between Dusht Daman and the birth of the Khalsa. What is this argument you keep pushing. Dusht Daman is mentioned in a couple of couplets in Bachittar Natak (if I'm not mistaken) so why do you keep going on like it is in every segment of Dasam Granth. The Khalsa receives almighty praise via SDG (inhi kirpa ke sajan hum hain). What about 33 swaiye and Khalisa Mehima. These banis give a great insight into the Khalsa's aim and objectives. Which other granth does this?

5. Please do not state about whether I like durga mata or whatever. I dont believe your opinions of Dasam Granth are correct. I am in no position to argue against SDG as I have not had enough santhiya or been taught the meanings.

6. Just clearly, please tell us which Banis you believe are "legtimate" and which are not in DG

7. Why again do you keep comparing between two totally different events. How did it become a choice between dusht daman or the life of the great, amazing 10th master of the Sikhs. I believe of course that the time of the great Sikh prophets is more important than any other writings, but DG isn't a competition between the two.

[JagjeetST]

It's simple guys, one side you have Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa who respected Banee with the utmost respect and then on the other side you have these anti people. Without Dasam Granth Jee's Banee results to: - No Ardass, Nitnem/Amrit Sanchaar cannot be complete.

[UKLondonSikh]

@ mrsingh12

12 = Which one is it? That he is a professor or he isn't? I'm just curious to know how he got that title, I know loads of Kathavachiks who know more than Ragi Darshan, they never been called Professor

UK = Paji, as i said before it’s more a title that the Sangat have given him for his study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But Paji let’s not move the goalposts of the debate and move the focus on to PDS. The whole matter revolves around acceptance of anti-Gurmat material within the so-called DG as having allegedly being authored by the Highest of the High or not. So it’s not about PDS – it’s more about why you believe in the Durga Mata, Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan stories? And in none of your responses have you managed to justify why you actually do? Perhaps you’d like to spell out your justification of the same in some further detail?

12 = You don't seem to understand my scholar based question. I am asking you straight. Do you believe the following scholars/giannis to have great/credible giaan of sikh philsophy and Gurbani:

UK = Paji, i respect every scholar who has prem for Sikhi in their heart. You might not believe this but I even have a lot of brotherly and sincere respect for you. You believe what you do passionately and sincerely because you genuinely feel that to question anti-Gurmat aspects of DG – which are in stark contradiction to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj would be wrong because some scholars say so. I do wonder why great scholars and poets during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj like Bhai Nandlal Ji, Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Sainapat Ji, Chaupa Singh Ji, Sewadas Ji and Koer Singh Ji never ever chronicled that Guru Sahib had allegedy written about Dusht Daman or the greatness of Durga Mata or the Charitropakhiyan stories (whilst fighting Mughal oppression to ensure Sarbat da Bhala).

UK = The counterpoint to yours Paji, is that the Sikh Panth has only 1 God, only 1 present Guru that we should bow down before and only 1 central Granth against which all other protestations of truth must be measured, evaluated, verified and authenticated. I accept that Damdami Taksal particularly since the end of 1977 have been vocal and very instrumental in the elevation of the so-called DG to the extent of asking for parallel parkash to be instituted universally. However, I don’t accept that the other scholars accepted the anti-Gurmat material within DG without question. If such scholars accept those parts of DG which are undoubtedly authentic and in resonance with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, just like Dhunda Sahib does, then it does not imply that the scholars believed in the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories.

12 = If you do, then how do you reconcilliate their position with that of yourself and Ragi Darshan. I am trying to point out that the greatest academics Sikhism has ever made all back pro-DG stance. Why dont you accept this?

UK = As explained above Paji. Some of our greatest scholars had such nimrata and concern for the Panth’s ekta that they chose to delay the day of reckoning when the anti-Gurmat material injected into the so-called DG by the Mughals and other anti-Sikh forces would be exposed. Clearly, with feverish support of anti-Gurmat writings within the so-called DG (or erstwhile Bachittar Natak as the entire volume was better known) by various elements within the Panth, there were times when it would have not been prudent to open up this debate. But now that the concept of parallel parkash was being hyped and pushed by a vocal minority within the Panth, those Amritdhari GurSikhs for whom the Birth of the Khalsa is more important than the Durga Mata, Dusht Daman & Charitropakhiyan stories held dear by the pro-DG crew, eventually had to draw a line in the sand.

12 = I am not dodging any bullet I am asking your fair questions? Do you agree that when kintoo prantoo is about to be done by someone on the writings of one of the greatest prophets ever seen, then that person should have done santhiya of that Gurbani first, off a respected teacher, than learn the meanings of that Bani using the various Teeke, instead of reading it at face value.

UK = Paji, Truth is resplendant in its beauty. Even illiterates are able to grasp the central truths that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj illuminates for Sarbat da Bhala. Similarly, there are parts of DG which can genuinely be accepted as Gurbani and over which the debate is non-existent. However, the objectionable parts of DG which were falsely infiltrated and interspersed with genuine Gurbani by the anti-Sikh forces aligned with the Mughals ... always need the justification of “oh only scholars can understand them”. Why can’t the common man, who is not a scholar, not decry+denounce open praise for Durga Mata? Why can’t Guru ke Sikh argue that the sole focus of our attention upon Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj be directed purely to that time when Dasme PaathShah held the GurGaddi in stark contrast to those that wish to divert attention towards the alleged Dusht Daman stories? Why can’t Amritdhari Sikhs argue that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj contains adequate Truth to guard any GurSikh against paap rather than the Charitropakhiyan stories?

12 = Do you know if any anti-DG has had santhiya and been taught meaning of DG at proper level?

UK = This is another reason people have had it with Bipren-ization of our Panth via the pro-DG elements. So now certain a pro-DG elite has to tell us what is wrong and right rather than the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj – which if studied correctly should be enough to enable commonsense understanding of all matters.

12 = It isnt a fight between Dusht Daman and the birth of the Khalsa.

UK = This is de facto what the pro-DG crew have turned this into and that is why I believe they will lose this argument as the true Khalsa Panth (as opposed to Ranjit Singh’s bipren-ized version in 1849) will never be stopped or defeated. By hyping up the Dusht Daman aspect of DG, at the expense of birth of the Khalsa Panth that is exactly what this boils down to Paji, in it’s own way. By hyping Bachittar Natak as being Gurbani and the pro-DG crew emphasising that according to them Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was previously Dusht Daman (and that allegedly a Brahmin blessed him with such powers) and the pro-DG crew further claiming that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is a direct descendent of Ram Chander (the Hindu Avatar “God in Human Form”) ... the pro-DG crew thus gravely insult our Dasme PaathShah and seek to malign the revolution Dashmesh Pithah sought to bring within global society and simultaneously they denigrate the Khalsa Panth. Either Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj sought to obliterate the relavance of background+ancestry via the Khalsa Panth or as per the so-called DG he (allegedly) sought to expound upon it.

12 = What is this argument you keep pushing. Dusht Daman is mentioned in a couple of couplets in Bachittar Natak (if I'm not mistaken) so why do you keep going on like it is in every segment of Dasam Granth.

UK = Paji, see above as to why the refutation Dusht Daman story is so critical for the Khalsa Panth to be seen in the correct light and why it is important that every Sikh understands that Sri Ananadpur Sahib is far more critical to what Sikhi is about than the alleged abode of Dusht Daman.

12 = The Khalsa receives almighty praise via SDG (inhi kirpa ke sajan hum hain). What about 33 swaiye and Khalisa Mehima. These banis give a great insight into the Khalsa's aim and objectives. Which other granth does this?

UK = That’s fine. An authenticated and verified and purified True Dasam Granth worthy of the name will ensure the rise of the Khalsa Panth to an even greater degree than the current times in which the adulterated so-called DG which mixes pure with profane in order to denigrate the Khalsa and Dasme PaathShah – who are the purest of the pure. Not a single true Khalsa on the planet needs the Charitropakhiyan stories to maintain their focus upon Amritdhari jeevan. Not a single true Khalsa requires repetition of praise for Durga Mata when the Khalsa Panth draws it strength from undeviating commitment to Ik Onkar. Not a single true Khalsa needs to accept alleged stories about Dusht Daman when we have the incredible details about Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life before the purview of the whole Sikh Panth.

12 = Please do not state about whether I like durga mata or whatever.

UK = But it’s pretty clear that you must do Paji, otherwise you wouldn’t bother defending those Durga Mata elements of DG.

12 = I dont believe your opinions of Dasam Granth are correct.

UK = That’s cool, we can agree to disagree as brothers within an indivisible Sikh Panth.

12 = I am in no position to argue against SDG as I have not had enough santhiya or been taught the meanings.

UK = In essence Paji, that could be construed as a very noble thought. However, it’s also a very convenient get-out clause for you so that you don’t have to concede the irrelavance of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories to Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth. What is plainly and blatantly anti-Gurmat and plainly conflicts with the essence of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj should not need great intellectual degree qualifications or Professorships or even Santhiya for that matter. If our great Dasme PaathShah says that pride and the broadcasting of one’s background is irrelavant and a sin ... then you shouldn’t need santhiya to understand that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj could never have proudly claimed descent from the Hindu Avatar (“God in Human Form”) Ram Chander and nor would Guru Sahib ever have mentioned Dusht Daman given that not a single iota of concentration should deflect away from the fact that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj initiated the Khalsa Panth with the sole objective of Sarbat da Bhala (not pilgrimages to the alleged abode of Dusht Daman).

12 = Just clearly, please tell us which Banis you believe are "legtimate" and which are not in DG

UK = Good try Paji, LoL. I think the emphasis is on you to prove why those elements which have been highighted as controversial are in your opinion allegedly authored by Guru Sahib!!! In fact if you can give me a line by line breakdown and justification of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories I’d be most obliged. Because I sincerely believe that no Sikh can adequately justify such blatantly anti-Gurmat material.

12 = Why again do you keep comparing between two totally different events. How did it become a choice between dusht daman or the life of the great, amazing 10th master of the Sikhs.

UK = Paji, mathematically let us assume that an upper limit of 100% of one’s attention can be focussed upon Dusht Daman our Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj (with the corollary that 100% is the maximum percentage possible in this case). Those who are unsure about elements of the so-called DG argue that we should focus 100% of our attention on the GurGaddi of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. The pro-DG crew ask the Sangat to focus 5,10 or 20% of our attention on the alleged and unproven Dusht Daman aspect as wanted by parallel parkash factions and their focus on the yatra to Sri Hemkunt Sahib ... whilst thereby leaving only 95, 90 or 80% of the Sangat’s ramaining focus on Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj’s GurGaddi. Therefore, it’s crystal clear that whether the pro-DG focus on a Dusht Daman a little or a lot, they clearly focus less on the GurGaddi of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj than those who reject anti-Gurmat and anti-Sikhi writings within today’s so-called DG.

12 = I believe of course that the time of the great Sikh prophets is more important than any other writings, but DG isn't a competition between the two.

UK = Agreed, and no Sikh will deny that authentic Gurbani within today’s DG ought to be collated into a new authenticated Dasam Granth worthy of the name, which would be central to Sikhi and an even stronger Khalsa Panth. All that is sincerely requested is that each and every Sikh thinks seriously about questions like:

• Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations?
  

• Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?
  

[UKLondonSikh]

It's simple guys, one side you have Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa who respected Banee with the utmost respect and then on the other side you have these anti people. Without Dasam Granth Jee's Banee results to: - No Ardass, Nitnem/Amrit Sanchaar cannot be complete.

UK = Jagjeet Paji, don't believe the scaremongering that those who believe in the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories (namely the pro-DG crew) are doing. The pro-DG crew are falsely arguing that the Khalsa Panth will collapse if the anti-Gurmat material within the so-called DG is debated and either subsequently authenticated or removed. That's how weak the pro-DG crew think the Khalsa Panth is.

UK = The truth is that the Khalsa Panth can never ever be destroyed:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA

VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

UK = So long as the Sikh Panth only accepts 1 God and only bows down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and so long as the Sikh Panth accepts that the Birth of the Khalsa at Sri Anandpur Sahib in Vasakhi 1699 holds more importance to the Panth than the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories ... then the Khalsa Panth will rise to even greater heights after anti-Gurmat, anti-Amritdhari and anti-Sikhi elements that malign Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj are removed from today's so-called DG.

[Only five]

UK = Jagjeet Paji, don't believe the scaremongering that those who believe in the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories (namely the pro-DG crew) are doing.

Scaremongering!!!!! Only people who are doing this scaremongering is the anti-Dasam Bani people. They take one tuk of Dasam Bani and distort the tuk by saying..........look sangat they are saying to worship devis and devta. Really pathetic people. If you really want to have this debate on Dasam Bani. Then start a new thread and show us which part is anti-gurmat by giving a proper explaination. Admit it!!! Your understanding of Gurbani is weak. You couldn't even explain what Bachittar Natak means. Not trying to have a go at you, but you are disrespecting Guru Sahib's Bani out of complete ignorance.

Even present a story out of Sri Charitorpakhyan and myself or another member can show you how wisdom can be gain from it. Present any Dasam Bani Shabad and members here can explain the Shabad. We have Sikhs that believe in the Christain God saying the Gurus were not God. We have the lighter skinned Sikhs saying God gave Sikhs yoga as a way to meet God and they are bowing to stone idols, and once again we have Sikhs who want to put on blindfolds and discriminate against the same Guru.

Before you put on your blindfold and go on a witch hunt tell us this. Are devta, devis, demons, Jamdhoot real according to Gurmat?

[UKLondonSikh]

@ onlyfive Paji

Paji i'll perhaps try respond in a bit more length later but in the interim would you perhaps care to explain and justify the critical issues mentioned below in reference to certain elements of DG+SG which are in dispute:

KhalistaniGunMan = guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage?

UK = LoL, KGM Paji do you actually seriously believe human beings are descended from the Hindu Devta - the Sun God (Surya) and his Hindu Goddess wives Saranya and Chhaya!? Good luck believing in your Suraj Devta!

KhalistaniGunMan = yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani

UK = So Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaano" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and you're so gullible that you cannot see this is a blatant interjection by anti-Sikh pro-caste forces aligned with the Mughals in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan is all i can say.

• Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations?
  

• Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?
  

Like I said Paji, i think the emphasis is on you to prove why those elements which have been highighted as controversial are in your opinion allegedly authored by Guru Sahib!!! In fact if you can give me a line by line breakdown and justification of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories I’d be most obliged. Because I sincerely believe that no Sikh can adequately justify such blatantly anti-Gurmat material and I don't think you're going to manage it! Please bear in mind Paji that those parts which do not contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are not in dispute, so it is the aforementioned adulteration that is the issue at hand.

[mrsingh12]

Just out of interest, what is the correct interpretation of the Sikh prophets in relation to Waheguru. Where they a form of God or were they messengers. I thought waheguru was above human form as stated in mool mantar in Jap Ji Sahib or charchi chand of Jaap Sahib

[mrsingh12]

1. The reason why I believe in the stories is that I believe they are written by the great 10th master of the Sikhs. Charitrpakhyan is the most misunderstood religious scripture the world has ever seen. I would say it similar to parables, where there is a hidden moral in the story. It just people, maybe like you, are put off by the word prostitute, alcohol and drugs in the writing.

2. I havent heard Damdami Taksal being vocal on DG parkash? My point is if respected scholars didnt cast a doubt on SDG, what makes missionarys and Ragi Darshan any wiser?

3. My position (i am not a member of any elite btw) is when any bani is to be understood, whether the 11th master, DG, Bhai Nand Lal Sahib Ji or Bhai Gurdaas Sahib Ji, pronunciation/santhiya/learning of meanings must take place. You cant take an exam without reading the content first. Thats why Sahib-e-Kamaal 10th master created Damdami Taksal

4. Mate honest question, which parts of DG do you think are not in line with Gurmat. I'm just asking your opinion. Do you believe Jaap Sahib, all Swayie, Chaupai Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Khalsa Mehima, Hakaet, Zafaranama are all legtimate?

5. Im not in favour of brabar parkash. Nor do I feel that DG should be left hidden away like some dirty magazine as some would have it. It should be read of course. Just because I am in favour of SDG doesnt mean I like all this hindu rubbish about durga you are shouting out.

[mrsingh12]

Look carefully at the battle between Pro DG and Anti DG. See listed below a short list of pro and anti people:

Pro DG -->

Prof. Sahib Singh (academically qualified),

Kahn Singh Nabha (Mahankosh writing quoted by anti DG hence showing stature)

Dr Jodh Singh (qualified PHD),

Dr Harpal Singh Pannu (qualified PHD)

Anti DG -->

"Prof" Darshan Singh (openly admitted no academic qualification)

"Prof" Sarbjit Singh Dhunda (which qualification has allowed Dhunda to take prof title)

"Prof" Inder Singh Ghagga (jealous of his older brother, again what qualification)

"Principal" Gurbaksh Singh Thailand (principal? what the hell haha)

in a test of credibility about the understanding of Gurbani, you have one group who have served the panth from day one to encourage the development of understanding and reading Gurbani, and you have another who either falsely attached titles, have made money from the same granth they are now attacking or are bored in old age and have nothing better to do

[UKLondonSikh]

@ mrsingh12

12 = The reason why I believe in the stories is that I believe they are written by the great 10th master of the Sikhs.

UK = I respect your viewpoint Paji and I respect the nimrata of Sikhs who feel that they are too neech to challenge anything which has allegedly been claimed to be written by Dasme PaathShah according to what their Sants have stated to them. However, if controversial parts of today's so-called DG stand against what Dasme PaathShah stood and fought for during their entire life ... then I would respectfully request that you ask your conscience if Dasme PaathShah would want his Sikhs to know our Guru well enough to at least apply the Bibek Buddhi of our sache Panj Piare in removing contaminated anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikhi and anti-Amritdhari material from today's version of the so-called DG. The minute those parts which contradict Guru Sahib's evident sachai are removed then the whole Panth will unite under the banner of true respect for a new pavithar asli Dasam Bani.

12 = Charitrpakhyan is the most misunderstood religious scripture the world has ever seen. I would say it similar to parables, where there is a hidden moral in the story. It just people, maybe like you, are put off by the word prostitute, alcohol and drugs in the writing.

UK = I respect your opinion on that Paji. That is certainly an argument that can be made - even though I disagree with it. Because, what that fundamentally implies is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj doesn't already contain adequate direction to inocculate us from the temptations of paap. Even though I see my respected pro-DG brothers put up a valiant argument by arguing that one just needs to search harder in the content for the hidden moral meaning, I 100% absolutely believe that you all struggle (internally) to accept the same. I feel sad that passionate and changeh Sikhs are reduced to de facto becoming apologists for writings that the other half (or silent majority) of the Panth can clearly see are authored by anti-Sikh forces for the sole purpose of maligning Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the birth of the Khalsa Panth.

12 = I havent heard Damdami Taksal being vocal on DG parkash?

UK = Well Paji look into the status they accord it and the philosophy that anyone who has trouble accepting the controversial parts is "not a Sikh".

12 = My point is if respected scholars didnt cast a doubt on SDG, what makes missionarys and Ragi Darshan any wiser?

UK = As i said Paji, i truly believe it was the nimrata and concern for the Panth's Ekta that meant certain scholars kept their counsel on the issue to avoid confronting the then status quo but as this demand for parallel parkash has grown thus Amritdhari GurSikhs for whom the birth of the Khalsa Panth is more important than Durga Mata have had to confront the issue head on.

12 = My position (i am not a member of any elite btw) is when any bani is to be understood, whether the 11th master, DG, Bhai Nand Lal Sahib Ji or Bhai Gurdaas Sahib Ji, pronunciation/santhiya/learning of meanings must take place.

UK = That's fair enough Paji. You're entitled to that view. Learning is a lifelong project for us as Sikhs. But the position of others is also that fundamental Truth is resplendent and clear in it's clarity. For example, if one Mahapursh says there is one God, that is formless + beyond comparison ... whilst some writer that received a pay packet from the Mughals and who was clearly an ardent fan of the Kama Sutra, various drugs, alcohol and the writer's "Maa" Durga ... then we don't really need much in the way of years of academic study to figure out which of the two "human beings" was correct and true.

12 = You cant take an exam without reading the content first.

UK = That's the thing Paji. People have indeed read the content. And GurSikhs are up in arms that how can certain elements be ascribed to our beloved Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. That's what's so aggravating Paji. Those that see the Qaum being hoodwinked by anti-Sikh forces are genuinely hurt as to why our brothers (on the pro-100% of today's so-called dg fence) can't see the blatant aggressive anti-Sikh, anti-Gurmat and anti-Amritdhari intention behind the writers that interspersed their falsehood into today's DG at the behest of anti-Sikh forces.

12 = Thats why Sahib-e-Kamaal 10th master created Damdami Taksal

UK = Damdami Taksal was a pavithar name to behold when associated with Dasme PaathShah and Baba Deep Singh Ji ... but we can clearly see what it has fallen to nowadays when Dhumma holds a plate of barfi for Badal like a loyal butler. When Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj became our Guru, the pavithar original asli Damdami Taksal's definition of a Sikh was simple, straightforward and inclusive - namely that anyone who bowed down before SGGS Ji Maharaj was a Sikh. From 1977 onwards DDT started to brand anyone against the Dusht Daman concept, Durgawaad or the Charitropakhiyan stories as a non-Sikh. DDT has become a name whose historic purity and greatness has been tainted just as the perception of what Akali Dal meant has suffered greatly under the Badals.

12 = Mate honest question, which parts of DG do you think are not in line with Gurmat. I'm just asking your opinion.

UK = In a nutshell, the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata nonsense, the fake Raam Chander ancestry baqwaas and the Chatritropakhiyan stories are some of the objectionable anti-Gurmat parts.

12 = Do you believe Jaap Sahib, all Swayie, Chaupai Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Khalsa Mehima, Hakaet, Zafaranama are all legtimate?

UK = If i personally had issues with the above, I would have pointed them out. When I said that I agreed with Professor Darshan Singh's position that the Charitropakhiyan stories, Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Raam Chander ancestry were simply hoaxes perpetrated on the Sikh Panth ... it didn't mean that I reject today's so-called DG in its entireity and nor did it mean that I agree with every opinion PDS holds. He wasn't even my favourite Ragi in his Kirtani heyday!

12 = Im not in favour of brabar parkash.

UK = We agree on that 100% Paji. However, do you extend that to actually including where parkash is de facto done jointly albeit that the level of today's so-called DG is a bit lower than SGGS Ji Maharaj? Because to me that's not much different than what a lot of Pakhandi Baba's are up to.

12 = Nor do I feel that DG should be left hidden away like some dirty magazine as some would have it.

UK = We agree 100% again Paji. An authenticated + asli Dasam Bani would be worthy of reading once everything in it was authenticated as having genuinely being authored by Dasme PaathShah. From such an asli future Sri Dasam Bani the whole Panth could benefit positively spiritually.

12 = It should be read of course.

UK = No harm in reading today's DG if one understands that the anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikhi and anti-Amritdhari parts of it were authored by forces intent upon the destruction of the Sikh Panth. But fundamentally, one should understand that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj has everything the Panth and indeed humanity at large needs. We need nothing other than our Guru to help us come closer to God but an asli Dasam Bani in the future would certainly have its own place for sure.

12 = Just because I am in favour of SDG doesnt mean I like all this hindu rubbish about durga you are shouting out.

UK = That's great to know that you admit that the Hindu's Durga Mata is simply a mythological Hindu Devi. That's why it's a slander upon our Dasme PaathShah for the anti-Sikh authors of parts of today's so-called DG to de facto allege in today's DG that this mythological Hindu Devi deserves praise and that she (LoL) got the help of a Khatri called Dusht Daman. These stories are fanciful, laughable and indeed pathetic. But when one realises that certain so-called Sikhs actually believe such nonsense despite the fact that it contradicts Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and maligns Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj in the process it's no longer a laughing matter. In fact it's a serious issue within the Panth that needs addressing as honouring or giving credence to anti-Sikh material that maligns Dasme PaathShah is tantamount to Beadbi in its own right.

UK = Obviously it doesn't need stating that ensuring Sarbat da Bhala ... via gareeba di seva ... ensuring global literacy, healthcare and human rights ... tackling drugs, alcohol, female foeticide ... attacking jaath-paath-biraderi vich vishwaas in the spirit of Vasakhi 1699 ... and ensuring Unity in the Panth ... mean that this is a peripheral matter we can agree to disagree upon respectfully as brothers within an indivisable Panth ... hence the calls for Dhunda Sahib to be murdered (at the start of this thread) just for expressing that the Khalsa Panth is more relavant to Sikhi than the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata story really ought to be retracted imho.