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Some are arguing that "gurbani is not bound by vyakaran", now how about if someone else came along and said that bani isnt bound by letters either and that you can ignore letters sometimes as you get more meanings?? You would obviously find that absurd and total manmat. So why is it that the effect on meanings of the siharis, aunkars etc can be ignored as if they just arent there?

In nirgun, there is no vikayaran only gyan..!!!!!!

Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi |

Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa ||

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Veer ji,

It is good to read that you believe at least grammar is required. I will ask you again, why did our Guru Sahibaan implement the Grammer system which requires words to have a certain lagu matra when it only gives the outer meaning? Why did they implement it? Please answer this.

Its clear from your posts that Gurbani Viakaran i.e. using the lagu matra is to get meanings such as the sihar, aunkar can only give outer meaning. Yet the Samprdayak Giani's (nirmale, sevapanthi etc) give the deeper arths but they did not use lagu matra to do the arths.

However Bhai Randhir Singh ji, Prof Sahib Singh ji, Prof Teja Singh ji, Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara ji...........all stayed within Viakaran rules and used lagu matra to do arths. So they only understand the outer layer of Gurbani? Yet the sampradayak giani's who did not use lagu matra to do arths they did the deeper meanings (anthrev arths).

When I mention Viakaran I am including the important tool of using the lagu matra (sihari, bihari etc) to do arths.

As far as I am aware the Nirmale Scholars did not use lagu matra to do arths maybe because they were unaware. This vidya was only discovered recently.

Rabb Rakhe

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As far as I am aware the Nirmale Scholars did not use lagu matra to do arths maybe because they were unaware. This vidya was only discovered recently.

Rabb Rakhe

I thnk you mean to say it was only rediscovered in the mainstream recently.

To preempt the question of how this vidiya was so unknown- just look to our own generation or or parents generation to see how much of any vidiya is known to anyone. amritdhari sikhs, and within that those that actually do deep khoj even now are still only 000000.1% (virle keeyee ke). Just imagine the effect of the sikh holocausts ghaluugare, wars and jungle living followed by corruption in the times of maharaj ranjit singh and british raj effected vidiya in sikhs.

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Sorry osingh and others,

I will try again. But in order to answer i need to ask few questions..everyone can do their search.

Does gurmukh's mystical experience (naam ras/amrit ras/atam ras) derives from vikayaran (outer layer) ?

Or

Does gurmukh's mystical experience (naam ras/amrit ras/atam ras) derives from gyan of gurbani (inner) upon going through stages in naam simran ?

Also

- How much of vikayaran is used to explain gyan of nirgun which one gets from naam simran?

Sants from taksal samparda, nirmale samparda's, sevapanthis aad believe in latter- gurmukh's mystical experience (naam ras/amrit ras/atam ras) derives from gyan of gurbani(inner). Off course vikayaran is important to lay basic gurbani framework. As our birthi becomes more subtle and subtler, its going towards gyan of shabad (nirgun). As gurbani rightly said,

Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi |

Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa ||

This is my final attempt...sorry.!!

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Veer ji,

I guess we will not be able to agree on this subject.

I firmly believe that we can not negate Gurbani Viakaran such as using the lagu matra when doing arths. However this does not mean I only read books or listen to those only from Viakaran background. I still listen to katha and books from Sampradaee Giani's. Faridkoti teeka is good even though they do not employ Viakaran like other scholars. We can learn from all Sikh scholars whether they be from SGPC, Taksal, AKJ, Sevapanthi..........................They are all worth of respect.

What made me convinced about viakaran is when I actually took to the time to study it for myself. Also the viakaran system is so deep it made me appreciate Gurbani even more. No worldy person could write such bani with such an in-depth system of grammer. Gurbani is truly bania sirr bani!

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji fateh!

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I don’t think my criticism of udasis and nirmalas is harsh. It is the reality. Udasis mismanaged the Gurdwaras and they were the ones to install idols in Gurdwaras and Darbar Sahib in the first place.

Bro, I think you are being a bit harsh on them. The Udasis were not the ones who mismanaged the Gurdwaras, it was the mahants, who were Udasi in name but in reality inherited the gurdwaras. The mahants seeing large numbers of sikhs going to hinduism saw their income at the Gurdwaras fall, so to entice the ex-sikh hindus back they installed idols. That is all they were about, money and power. Not of the original teachings if Guru Ji's. But it is harash to taint the whole samprdaye as bad, if there are a few rotten apples.

Nirmalas were taught by Guru Sahib Himself and these learned Sikhs were sent to Hindu pilgrimage places where great debates on philosophical topics were held to propagate Gurmat. All Sikhs sent to Benaras were Sikhs and Amritdharis. Their last name was Singh.

From what i have read these 5 sikhs were sent way before khande ki pahul happened in 1699.

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it wasn't just the singh sabha movement which saved sikhism. The british estimated that sikhs would be finished and in a later census they found that the sikh population had rapidly grown. Sant Attar Singh ji Mastuana wale did massive prachar and the growth in numbers was mainly due to his kirpa.

regarding Gurbani grammer, bhai vir singh ji tried to write a teeka of guru granth sahib ji that had all of the arths of Bani init. As he grew in avastha he found that when he looked back that the previous arths were incomplete!! he had to ask for maafi for his mistake as he realised that Gurbani has no ant. B/c Gurbani has no ant, it cannot be limited to a system of grammer, as grammer systems by their very nature, force an ant (limit) on the depth of meaning.

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