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Bhagat Ravidass And Ravidassias.


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That's sad 2 know man, india n brahmins have treated chamaars/ravidassis's A LOT worser than some so called sikhs have, why they wud side with the dirtystanis is beyond me.

Are you sure? I never knew brahmins in punjab were in large numbers or held such power. The problem is with us and we complain about being oppressed but in many instances like this we are the oppressor. Once people admit this then only can we move on

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Are you sure? I never knew brahmins in punjab were in large numbers or held such power. The problem is with us and we complain about being oppressed but in many instances like this we are the oppressor. Once people admit this then only can we move on

u do kno that chamaar/ravidassi's r called dalits outside of panjab? Coz if ur tellin me dalits/chamaars have been treted as equals in the rest of india for 1000's of yrs, then ur havin a bubble bath! Nor am i complainin/whinin btw. Have u heard bowt the naxals? Seen a movie called bandit queen? Seen wat life is like in Uttar Pradesh for chamaars? Panjab is a haven compared 2 rest of india. I aint arse'-lickin jatts or whoever bullys chamaars in panjab, especialy as im not of either tribe.

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u do kno that chamaar/ravidassi's r called dalits outside of panjab? Coz if ur tellin me dalits/chamaars have been treted as equals in the rest of india for 1000's of yrs, then ur havin a bubble bath! Nor am i complainin/whinin btw. Have u heard bowt the naxals? Seen a movie called bandit queen? Seen wat life is like in Uttar Pradesh for chamaars? Panjab is a haven compared 2 rest of india. I aint arse'-lickin jatts or whoever bullys chamaars in panjab, especialy as im not of either tribe.

Yes I know about communist Naxal movement and what they are up against with Ranvir Sena. But at the same time I KNOW they are not treated as equals in Punjab, however in my region Doaba they are powerful and educated but they are not so in Malwa or other regions where bonded labour exists. This is due to the fact they have rejected mainstream Sikhism and taken up Buddhism, Ravidassia, Christianity, Ad-dharm and so on, whilst in Malwa they have little self-esteem they often hid their identity and say they are Ramdassia Sikh and obviously you mentioned UP where many are classed as Hindus.

So I would not say its Sikhi that helped them in Doaba, maybe Sikh values but not everyone practices this in Punjab. It is funny you mention Jatt, most the hatred towards dalits in Punjab seems to stem from them. I am neither tribe either, infact I would be considered a higher caste than Jatt if I aknowledged the caste system and to be honest I find most of them idiotic especially here in the UK.

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Yes I know about communist Naxal movement and what they are up against with Ranvir Sena. But at the same time I KNOW they are not treated as equals in Punjab, however in my region Doaba they are powerful and educated but they are not so in Malwa or other regions where bonded labour exists. This is due to the fact they have rejected mainstream Sikhism and taken up Buddhism, Ravidassia, Christianity, Ad-dharm and so on, whilst in Malwa they have little self-esteem they often hid their identity and say they are Ramdassia Sikh and obviously you mentioned UP where many are classed as Hindus.

So I would not say its Sikhi that helped them in Doaba, maybe Sikh values but not everyone practices this in Punjab. It is funny you mention Jatt, most the hatred towards dalits in Punjab seems to stem from them. I am neither tribe either, infact I would be considered a higher caste than Jatt if I aknowledged the caste system and to be honest I find most of them idiotic especially here in the UK.

bro i am too from doaba area (like most of the sikhs in uk), in ur opinion, wat can be done 2 bring chamaars back into sikhi? in a way im kinda of happy for them, that they go around singin "putt chamaara de", coz they feel like they finally have a backbone 2 fight their so-called superiors, but then ultimatley, this is a detriment 2 sikh unity. Then the enemies of r religion, can slowly pick us off.

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bro i am too from doaba area (like most of the sikhs in uk), in ur opinion, wat can be done 2 bring chamaars back into sikhi? in a way im kinda of happy for them, that they go around singin "putt chamaara de", coz they feel like they finally have a backbone 2 fight their so-called superiors, but then ultimatley, this is a detriment 2 sikh unity. Then the enemies of r religion, can slowly pick us off.

they always had backbone even from times of the gurus and panj pyaareh but they lacked organisation, all these jatt songs reeks of insecurity where as chamar song celebrate their rise against adversity. personally im no fan of this sort of music. as for bringing them back to sikhi i think it maybe a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

it is very difficult to get people back after they have made up their mind, learn from it and move on and try not make the same mistakes again.

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All these caste issues show why India will always be a third world nation. It's no different than Africa and the tribalism there. Lot's of westerners come to India to learn about the religions formed in India like Sikhism, Hinduism and Buddhism, but the people in India are all about me, me and me! The mentality will never change!

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All these caste issues show why India will always be a third world nation. It's no different than Africa and the tribalism there. Lot's of westerners come to India to learn about the religions formed in India like Sikhism, Hinduism and Buddhism, but the people in India are all about me, me and me! The mentality will never change!

100% true, ive always sed this about india. i find it laughable that india/indians think they can compete with china. In china the poor poor ppl have become working class now, workin class have become richer, richer become middle class, middle class have become upper class etc, because china has invested in all/most areas, irrespective of ppls status. Thats y china's economy has boomed n hasnt stopped. India on the other hand is jus a pure racist country, that cant let go of its racist nature. If it isnt caste then its the dark vs light skin thing. As long as brahminism rules india, india can forget bowt becomin a superpower! China has a shockin human rights record n sex selection (back in the day), but now india has overtaken em at this aswel. Not sayin china doesnt have problems with certain ppl in their country (tibetans n muslims uighars etc), but india has tried time n time again 2 kill every non-hindu in india, via pre-planned genocides.

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Shamshere = Come on you can't blame this all on Indira Gandhi and Hindus.

UK = Nobody was levelling 100% of the blame on Indira. The blame was levelled was fairly and squarely at the fake pro-caste believing so-called Sikhs who along with Indira rejoiced at the central message of Sikhi (namely equality) being blunted+ignored.

Shamshere = I've never heard of hindus singing putt brahmin de! The vast majority of Sikhs believe in the caste system just as much as Hindus if not more.

UK = Remember that Brahmins were the biggest Hindu caste in 1931 with 4% of the Hindu population but their demographic and political power is eroding year after year as can be seen in Uttar Pradesh and elsewhere. True, about how stupid these Punjabi people are that revel in their caste labels when they don't hold a candle to the level of power Gangetic Brahmins held historically. Punjabi Brahmins nowadays are certainly less casteist than other sections of the Punjabi community. Let's not forget the ancestry of Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Sati Das Ji.

Shamshere = If you repress a bunch of people then it is only natural that they will move away. Say if you had friends who constantly looked down on you, made fun of you, considered you dirty, wouldn't eat at your house, would you want to be friends with them?

UK = I totally agree with the above statement.

Shamshere = The reason the Sikh population is decreasing in Doaba is because every Tom, <banned word filter activated> and Harry from villages wants to go abroad and a lot do. My parents are from this area and whenever I speak to the youth there they all say they want to move abroad.

UK = That has had an impact, however what you're forgetting is that youth from Majha and Malwa equally want to try their luck abroad so your analysis on that point was a bit over-simplified if I can say so respectfully (but not patronisingly :-)

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Sweetshera = Not bad but I do not see connection with bhagat ravidass and ravidassia?

UK = Because all Sikhs are de facto Ravidassia and we bow down before Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words daily

Sweetshera = they don't support khalistan

UK = Neither do 99% of mainstream Sikhs as evidenced after 1997, when I myself stopped advocating Khalistan as the best way to escape the terrorist central state that most clearly existed in 1984 and in susbequent years

Sweetshera = and are viciously pro-india. they boast about winning in 1984 because they took the indian side,

UK = A very sweeping statement. I think it's best you speak for yourself rather than a whole community that you don't even belong to. By your logic are we to assume that a larger demographic within the Panth are viciously pro-India because of the actions of KS Brar and KPS Gill and how Charan Grewal and Gurinder Dhillon are like? I am aware that the Hindu Jatts of Haryana and Hindu Jatt dominated Dehli police thought that "Sikha nu sabak sikhai'ah gayah" and that Sajjan Kumar the famous Hindu Jatt leader obviously boasted of the genocide against innocent Sikhs as a victory ... but it's very unfair of you to indirectly level such a statement against people of a similar ancestry such as Shaheed Beant Singh who took the evil that Indira was out at the root.

Sweetshera = lol that video is one of those fakes

UK = The video merely states that Sikhs and Dalits face a common enemy in the casteist central bureaucracy of India.

Sweetshera = I know many ravidass/chamar ppl from uni/college alot tell me their family we army and police in india

UK = The majority of the Punjabi element within the Indian Army and the Punjab Police are actually Jatt, so that rather renders personal anecdotal conversations a bit meaningless in overall terms.

Sweetshera = but i guess it because they were given chances to improve their situation by the indian government

UK = Garib Dass of Dera Ballan's bank balance certainly did improve massively thanks to Indira ... but Congress did absolutely nothing meaningful for sections of the Panth that hold 2% of the landholdings in Punjab whilst comprising a third of the total Punjab population. After all most of the Congress MLA's in Punjab were casteist Jatts.

Sweetshera = however in my region Doaba they are powerful and educated but they are not so in Malwa.

UK = A lot of your tone parrots the Ad-Dharmi political nonsense aimed at Sikhs by Dera Ballan. Because there are more saanjhay Gurdware in Malwa and Sikhi is more prevalent there than in Doaba, I wouldn't fall into the trap of thinking Sikhs from Malwa of a similar background to Giani Ditt Singh are in any way weaker than their Doaba counterparts. If they are more committed to Sikhi that doesn't make them weaker my friend. Sikhi gives strength to all those that truly believe in it.

Sweetshera = This is due to the fact they have rejected mainstream Sikhism and taken up Buddhism, Ravidassia, Christianity, Ad-dharm and so on, whilst in Malwa they have little self-esteem they often hid their identity and say they are Ramdassia Sikh

UK = Pure nonsense my friend. You probably read that on wiki or some Dera Ballan mouthpiece parroted it to you. In the pind where Mangoo Ram first articulated the Ad-Dharm creed, the Jatts who helped establish him were Hindu Jatts like Dhanpat Rai and Beeru Ram Sangha. From that it can be seen that Sikhi historically failed to penetrate Doaba as extensively as Malwa (in no small part due to the proximity of the Hindu Hill Raja's). So mainstream Sikhi was never discarded in the way you suggest until after 1980 most intensely. Given that Ad-Dharm is itself a casteist philosophy as espoused by Dera Ballan, and so-called lower-castes either sit at the back of Christain churches (or in totally different churches to Christian Brahmins etc) as the Bible is fine with social stratification ... it's highly questionable how moving away from Sikhi (which bitterly opposes the caste system as exemplified in 1699) can improve the situation for poor folks from Doaba. Ramdasia Sikhs were not those who had inferiority issues ... they were those brave Sikhs like Giani Ditt Singh who led the Singh Sabha movement and were responsible for countless people (particularly but not exclusively from oppressed sections of Hindu society) coming to Sikhi

Sweetshera = So I would not say its Sikhi that helped them in Doaba, maybe Sikh values but not everyone practices this in Punjab.

UK = Sikhi and egalitarian Sikh values are one and the same as can be seen from Vasakhi 1699. It's common knowledge that thanks to the influence of Sikhi discrimination against the Ad-dharmi community was least in East Punjab than compared to its counterparts in Pakistan and Haryana where Muslim Jatts and Hindu Jatts predominate. The main fault for their discrimination in Punjab lies with casteists from the same community as those who killed Sikhs off most brutally in 1947+1984.

Sweetshera = It is funny you mention Jatt, most the hatred towards dalits in Punjab seems to stem from them.

UK = What perturbs me is that there is not more awareness amongst the Sikh Qaum of the vast majority of Jatts being Muslim+Hindu. Muslim Jatts + Hindu Jatts utterly despise + hate those that follow related occupations to that which Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj was enagaged in, yet we as Sikhs cannot seem to understand that there should be 100% equality amongst our own given how the Muslim Jatts did in Pakistan 1947 and Hindu Jatts did in Haryana+Delhi 1984. One thing is for sure no Muslim Jatt or Hindu Jatt will bow down before Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words. But Muslims+Hindu's will kill people simply for being of a leatherworking ancestry as history and current human rights abuses clearly show us.

Sweetshera = I am neither tribe either, infact I would be considered a higher caste than Jatt if I aknowledged the caste system and to be honest I find most of them idiotic especially here in the UK.

UK = I agree that anyone who claims to be a Sikh yet holds discriminatory thoughts (while proclaiming their background with pride - which in of itself is totally against Sikhi) is someone that needs to marginalised or rather ostracised from the community. The majority of Sikhs from a rural landowning background oppose the caste system and of that I have no doubt. We just need to get the whole community more vocal and engaged upon ensuring total quality, brotherhood and Unity within the Panth and united Gurdware are a starting point.

Sweetshera = they always had backbone even from times of the gurus and panj pyaareh but they lacked organisation,

UK = Agreed

Sweetshera = all these jatt songs reeks of insecurity

UK = Agreed

Sweetshera = where as chamar song celebrate their rise against adversity.

UK = Naah i'm afraid it's the same casteist philosophy behind it. As the Ad-Dharmi religion states ... only one from the Ad-Dharmi caste can marry another from the Ad-Dharmi caste ... hence in order to uphold that philosophy you get the "Putt Chamaara De" tracks which neatly correspond + match to the Jattwaad baqwaas (often pumped out by the famous Muslim Jatt record label).

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wat can be done ... (about Dera Ballan trying to transform today's Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindu's)?

Rebel, there's plenty we can do especially as youth. But we have to do it now as by 2021 it will be too late.

Furthermore, at this point just over half of the population demographic being discussed is still Sikh inside Punjab.

In Malwa you will find the Sikh percentage to be a lot higher.

In Doaba however, Indira + Dera Ballan certainly have inflicted a lot of damage to splinter the Panth.

In no particular order, we have to combat any instances of discrimination that are occurring whether that be at the matrimonial level or in verbal or personal interaction. Matrimonial discrimination is as vile and anti-Gurmat as you can get. Pind need to be unified in addition to the Panth having only 1 saanjha Gurdwara per locality.

We have to increase interaction between youth of various Gurdware as a pre-cursor to creating unified Gurdware in every locality.

We've got to reclaim the "Ravidassia" label back for ourselves as Sikhs. Ie Sikhs are the True Ravidassia's.

Dera Ballan are simply an Ad-Dharmi outfit that despise Sikhs and they seek to denigrate Amritdhari Sikhs for political reasons.

Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj had a message of total truth, human brotherhood, equality and human justice ... namely the core values of Sikhi.

Dera Ballan want people that donate to them to marry within their caste in order that the caste system flourishes.

Whereas, true Sikhi as we saw in 1699 and when Sikhs were unstoppable militarily seeks to eradicate the caste system and great Sikhs like Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha and Bhai Puran Singh of Pingalwara again and again advocated to the Sikhi masses that Sikhs must NOT marry within caste as a deliberate selection criteria.

Everyone can see plainly that corrupt elements from Dera Ballan leadership want monopoly control of the devotee's offerings from a certain section of the community. The way Sikhs can counter this is having total transparency in how our Gurdware and SGPC are run and ensuring that Sevadars from the same ancestry as Giani Ditt Singh Ji play a commensurate role. SGPC funds should be spent upon ensuring human equality, dignity, education and healthcare for all rather than putting gold on Gurdware in such blatantly anti-Gurmat fashion just because Ranjit Singh did so historically. Let Dera Ballan have corrupt leaders pocket the offerings and in contrast let's have Punj Pyaray at our Gurdwara to contrast and show that at our Gurdware background is irrelavant but imaandaari, sachai, gareeba di seva and Sarbat da Bhalla come first.

Also Rebel, i come back to an old point ... in order for us not to get confused about who are real enemies are ... we need to repeatedly highlight that 80% of the Jatt tribe are Muslim+Hindu. Not Sikh.

We need to explain to the wider public that four of the Punj Pyaaray were not even from Punjab.

We need to explain that Giani Ditt Singh who led the Singh Sabha movement was not a Jatt.

And we need not shy away from pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims+Hindu's of all castes despise Mochi's and Jatav's far more than the worst fake Sikhs ever did or could do.

In terms of music, try to get your friends on side with you to contact as many artists as you can and explain to them that caste-reinforcing records and alcohol-promoting records are not cool and do unbelievable harm to the youth of the community and help splinter the Panth. Economically it hurts the artists by alienating potential fans.

Davinder Bal of Sikh Channel is the man we need to get this message through to politely as well.

And last but not least, incidents like Vienna benefitted Dera Ballan. As Sikhs we have to defeat our enemies via logic in the first instance rather than pure aggression in this day and age. The SurajMani Dera head was a fool but we need to realise that three Sikhs can better serve their community and do more for Sarbat da Bhalla through a lifetime of active service to the Panth and wider humanity rather than wasting their lifetimes in the 21st century by rotting the remainder of their lives out in Indian jails. To be clear, i think Bhai Mehtab Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh were as important Soorme of our Panth as you do ... but let's not equate these times now in 2012 to how things were back then. In this day and age Beadbi is going to increase (particularly with the Internet) so we need to adopt a mindset that our Guru's words can never be destroyed no matter what physical or verbal Beadbi may occur at the hands of our enemies. Of course, we can't deliberately do Beadbi of our Guru ourelves by holding meat+sharaab functions at Gurdware though. Rabh Rakha

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

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