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Krishna In Sikhism


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krishan, an avtar of vishnu, vishnu a head devta (trimurti brahma bisan mahes) who has been given a position by mahakal akal pursh himself, that of sustaining God's creation....for sudama and many hindus krishna is God, in Sikhism he is highly respected as an avtar but Akall Purkh is himselfd alone.

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It be easier to understand gurbani from angle of sargun and nirgun form of Vahiguroo rather than abhramic/western version of God. Everything make sense from nirgun and sargun perspective of Vahiguroo!!!...applying western version of God on gurbani is big NO!!..one start falling into to many doubts/sansas and into many theological and ontological problems- at the end they just get fed up- start rejecting gurbani or changing gurbani like bhausaria's so it fits perfectly in their tunnel vision of Sikhi (instead of changing their mindset) !!!!

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In the tuk mentioned, Bhai Gurdas ji is describing historical personalities and the events related tothem or (the dialog that may have taken place in that historical event). So, the characters in that description are being addressed as they would have been addressed by other characters in that situation. For Sudhaama and his wife, Krishana was the lord - may even was thought of as the avatar of Vishnu.. In Gurbani the Brahamanic concept of God taking birth as trimurti avatars is rejected. In Sikhi the world is treated to have been created, maintained and destroyed by Hukam of Nirankaar –not by trimurti avatars..

*

Further I agree with N30SINGH that Waheguru is best understood in Nirgun and Sargun forms of the world. God as avatar or man is rejected in Gurbani

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13Mirch veer,

Here is the thread on sargun and nirgun - http://www.sikhsangat.com/Index.php?/topic/66285-sargun-nirgun-nirankar/ ..take it whatever you will!

There is nothing bhramanical about Vahiguroo transceding its attributes or immanent its attributes to sargun(shud satogun) avtars according to need and time. There are many different types of avtar (listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale on avtars in japji sahib katha)

Jab Jab Hot Arsat Apara

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara (Bachitar Natak)

Whenever numerous tyrants take birth

Then that one takes avtar in physical form.

Every one should read 18 long pages anyalsis in english on avtarvad and sikhi by tirath singh nirmala in Bhavrasamrit teeka translations and commentary. It's very interesting and clarifies gurmat position on avtarvaad and clears lot of misconception.

Whilst gurmat uses concept of avtar where it needs to, according to time (for guidance and to invoke devotion and prem - puran guru avtar - sri guru nanak dev ji form in 10 forms, puran hari avtars- krishna ram chandar ji etc, narsingh to kill harnakash and save parlad, nit avtars- saints etc) and for devotion for gurmukhs (sargun vahiguroo upma in our granths - sri guru granth sahib, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth and other ithasik granths soraj parkash etc be it in form of gurbani tuks, mangal charan etc) it does not over emphasize importance on avtars to the point where sikhs start making same mistakes as some follower of other avtars did in the past have did - mistaking the gunas (shud satogun etc) themselves as nirgun chaitan vahiguroo instead of transcending naturally to gyan layer of sikhi or also idiolizing the avtars limited to an idol worshipping and getting stuck at idol worshipping forgetting indestructibale nirgun paratma. Hence, having dvait (duality) contary to Gurmat, as Gurmat is advait (non duality Marg).

Gurmat uses very careful and balance approach when it comes to avtarvad and Sikhi so sikhs don't pitfall like other followers of other dharams have. Gurbani contains two sides of same coin to teaching on avtar emphasing brahman (nirgun paratma) in sat chit anand ( Ad ant eko avtara sohi samjheo guru hamra) and on other side of coin presenting sargun paratma in form of our guru sahib to invoke devotion ie- prem.

Considered carefully there is no contradictions here on two sides of same coin on avtarvaad, its only clear guidance about the two paramaters by which to understand nature of avatar; the symbolic form is to inculate devotion, inspiration, adoration, love and sacrifice purely as a means to realise that which is beyond gunas

Ighai Nirugn Ughai Sargun kel Karat Bich Swami Mera

Here ( you are) formless; there (you are) with form. You play it both ways, O my swami || Ang - 827

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Has been discussed before and Gurbani tells us that Krishna could not escape Kaal. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj in his Katha of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj says a Sikh needs to escape Krishna.

Many of these new generation Sikhs are confused and can`t find the balance here. So they end up making some loud comments that hold no truth and then end up worshipping at Devis and Devta feet. They read Shiv in Gurbani and they end up bowing at Shiva feet. They lack the understanding of Gurbani on this complex topic.

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The main moral on topic of kaal and avtar, its not the krishan maharaj claim that he could escape kaal but rather his death along with other avtars is shown as an example to teach "reality" to sargun fanatic followers, in other words- the main moral is to give tarna(scolding) to "fanatic" sargun bhagats who ended up idolizing their avtars and start considering them as nirgun paratma and getting stuck in that mindset, instead rising above from avtarvaad and having an profound experience of our own real self - sat chit anand nirgun atma-paratma..hell my real self (atma-paratma) is avtar go ahead sue me..lol !!!

Make no mistake, this scolding of guru maharaj to fanatic sargun bhagats applies across the board not just to some hindus idolization on their avtars but some sikhs themselves too who lost the plot as well (For eg- idolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to physical saroop of sri guru granth sahib maharaj and larivar saroop so much so that they won't even matha taik to pad chad saroop, idolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to only- sargun saroop (arti arta/phul varka/bhog lou etc) of sri guru granth sahib ji instead of having an real balance- reading/vichar/contemplating/meditating on bani, idolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to shastars/shastar pooja -kirpan instead of learning shastar vidya- knowing how to use them, pseduo new age nihangs idiolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to mere shiv shakti, over zealous chelas at nanaksar idolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to guru maharaj pictures, idolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to decorating guru ghar mantars in posters instead of meditating on it, idolization and limiting nirgun vahiguroo to shabad dhuniyas (part of subtle sargun)- oh there is a long list- but hopefully you get my point..!!)

ps note: Gurmat is NOT against sargun upasana of avtars to invoke devotion/prem/sharda/vairaat saroop/ majestic beauty of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj shown by bhai nand lal ji in his poetry, but there is a major difference between fanatic sargun upasakh, hybrid nirgun sargun upasakh and sargun/nirgun upasakh according to Gurmat.!!

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Krishna also had haumai - he said to Arjuna " all knowledge flows from me, all the arts come from me, i am the breath of life i am this i am that etc etc"

Thus Krishna can be criticused for acting in haumai however he is highly respected as a Namit Avtar - he came to destroy Kans as he was an evil ruler, he did many raas leelas, once Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji mahapursh were doing katha from Krishan Avtar (Dasam GurDarbar) about his leelas with many of his women friends and one Singh, a student of the university began to laugh and said "ha ha look at what Krishna was upto" and Sant Ji became very angry and gave him extreme punishment

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Krishna also had haumai - he said to Arjuna " all knowledge flows from me, all the arts come from me, i am the breath of life i am this i am that etc etc"

Thats krishan maharaj in gyan vairaat saroop, thought behind this act is not haumai as krishan wanted to show arjuna his vairaat saroop upon request. However i agree act itself can be consider humae as it could be perceived by chelas..!!

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