Krishna In Sikhism

[chatanga]

Ravan is described as having 10 heads, making him as smart as 10 people. One can guess how this tall-tale developed.

I was thinking of how he is portrayed in the Duserrah festivals.

Legend says that he was as smart and cunning as 10 men. I believe that is why he is portrayed as a demon with 10 heads. Overtime, people really began to believe that he had 10 heads.

Ravan was a staunch Shiv-Bhagat, and he did tapasya to please Bhagwan Shiv Ji to earn a boon. When Shiv Ji did not appear, Ravan in the ultimate sacrifice for his Guru, cut his head off (at this time Ravan was still a Brahman-birti saadh) which fell into the sacrificial fire, Bhagwan Shiv Ji promptly caused another head to appear on Ravan's body, adn Ravan repeated his sacrifice another 8 times, and when he was ready to sacrifice his head for the 10th time/his tenth head, Bhagwan Ji appeared and reinstated all his 9 sacrificed heads back to his body.

Only now people are starting to apply logic to this, and say Ravan had the intelligence of 10 heads.

Interesting replies, I read everyone's and appreciate everyone's perspectives and do agree avtars have no place in Sikhi.

The avtars do have a place in Sikhi, Gurbani mentions them again and again, Their postive contributions and their negative contributions as well. Gurbani uses them as a guide as well to teach Manas jati.

[osingh]

As daas understands Guru Nanak is the Guru form of Nirankaar (God). Gurparsad has sihari at the end which gives the meaning of naal - Guru di kirpa naal. So with kirpa of Guru Nanak we can meet Nirankaar. Gurbani cannot be fully comprehended. This is just my understanding.

However the main point is that as per ang 1390, the shakti behind previous avtars (sri Ram Chander, sri Krishan ji e.t.c.) in certain instances was infact Guru Nanak Dev ji which proves that Guru Nanak Dev ji existed before they became pargat in this kharam bhoomi (earth) in 1469.

Guru Nanak Dev ji did not teach people to recite his name instead they recieved Naam directly from Sachkhand and was given the honour of teaching others to recite Naam. Guru Nanak Dev ji taught people to get closer to Nirankaar by japping Naam, bringing panj chor under control, kirat karna, sharing earnings e.t.c.

We should not disrespect previous avtars or bhagats and can learn from actions which are in line with Gurbani. As Gursikhs we are taught by Guru Sahib - mittha bolna. We should never use foul language in normal speech let alone for insulting other dharams, prophets, avtars e.t.c.

We do not really need to focus too much on other dharams, Guru Granth Sahib ji has all the knowledge we require to walk on this path towards Waheguru. All of the qualities of previous avtars are contained within Guru Sahib. Lets just focus more on becoming chela of Guru Sahib. We now 100% that if we become bhagats of Guru Sahib we can achieve mukhti and Sachkhand.

If other avtars are in Sachkhand or not it does not change the fact that we still have to follow the teachings of Guru Sahib in this Kaljug.

Kalijug parman Nanak Gur Angaḏ Amar Kahaio - Ang 1390.

In Kaljug Guru Nanak is samrath. You made yourself known as Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

Sri Guru Raj Abicẖal Atal Aad Purakẖ Furmaio.

Aad Purakh has said that the Raaj of Guru Nanak is unmovable and permanent.

[N30S1NGH]

osingh veer, i have already discussed your understanding or jatha's view with Bijla Singh in detail around label of satguru and fun game of semantics behind it. People can research it from past discussion or vichars and come up with their conclusion. I stand by traditional gurmat advait- Ikgongkar- nirgun gyan chaitan sarabvyapak saroop (atma-paratma) saroop of satguru nanak dev ji and sargun saroop of satguru nanak dev ji which cannot be confined or claim by protestant Sikhs to claim superamacy!!!!!

** already tried playing humpy dumpty game of semantics around satguru label on this forum and other forums..i have decided to move on and let readers decide**

Gurmat is anadi!!!!

Gurmat is anadi.mp3

[osingh]

N30 Singh ji, respect you views on meaning of Satguru. The only problem I have is when you label people such "protestant".

There are great Gursikhs from Sampardas as well as Jatha. Many Gursikhs believe in the supremacy of Guru Nanak Dev ji and they have reached the highest levels of spirituality.

We should be able to discuss and maintain respect with each others views without resorting to labelling people.

How can it be wrong to believe in the supremacy of Guru Nanak Dev ji? Just read the about the vadiaee of Guru Nanak Dev ji in bhatt Kal ji's bani, shiromini bhagats such as bhagat Kabir ji and bhagat Nam Dev ji are singing the praises of Guru Nanak. My understanding of the vadiaee of Guru Nanak comes from reading Gurbani as well as other Gursikhs such as bhai Vir Singh ji, bhai Randhir Singh ji, Giani Gurbachan Singh, Giani Mohan Singh e.t.c.

The majority of Panth is united in that we focus on the nirgun saroop of Guru Nanak. As far as Sargun Saroop, do you mean the actions of Satguru ji?

Of course we should not worship the body of Guru Sahibaans i.e. bowing to a picture or idol. Daas understanding is that Guru Sahib wants us to get close to Nirankaar by focusing on the Shabad (Naam).

Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela.

Our surti should follow the dhuni of Naam. I think we can all agree on this.

[N30S1NGH]

Speaking from traditional gurmat stand point- I wish there was any sugar coat way of putting this forward. But it appears there isn't.. After decades of de-marganlization and demonization of traditional gurmat concept and those who uphold it, its about time people rise against "protestant version of sikhi", i m not talking about traditions here but mainly talking about sanctity of Vahiguroo theological concept reduced to mere abhramic verison of God.

Elitist superamist ideology came and hijacked gurmat- started super imposing its own view (Victorian protestant thought) on Gurmat and tried shoving Gurmat to tunnel (but maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in to tunnel), traditions are seperate story (another painful chapter), but whole theological definition of God(Vahiguroo) was changed from beautiful divine serene- sargun, shakta-shakti intertwined with nirgun chaitan- advait gurmat metaphysical concept to western/christian idea of God who is-'fearful angry','wrathful', 'who is confined to its adobe who gives naam jhapi to his followers upon arrival where he resides before inspecting his/her uniform' 'full of partiality'- accepting the passport/issuing visa to only those who have - kes/ki, kanga, kirpan, kachera, kara' along with all sarbloh- rest billions of jiv atma were demanded to go back in this earth take birth, follow this form otherwise all souls are naturally doomed in (birth and death cycle) until they take this form.

And God who is only and only confined to "naam shabad" not sargun, nirgun, naam shabad, gyan saroop-advait (Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap), God who only cares about- 'Vahiguroo dhuni', sas grass naam dridh', so so much these elitist superamist try changing vahiguroo to vahguru - Gurmantar, so it matches with their robotic sound resosance- their version of shabad surat marg , they were staunchly against all other mantra (forget about outside mantra, but were staunchly against all the mantra found in gurbani itself!!!!), which provides profound expereince of divine such as- ikongkar, Ongkar, satnaam, ikongkar satgurparsad, Gobinde Mukande Udhare Aparaie Hariang Kariang Nirname Akame, Aad Gureh Nameh Jugad Gureh Nameh Satguru Nameh Sri Gurdev Nameh, these superamist refuse to matha taikh to sri guru granth sahib sargun saroop written in pad ched form (let alone saints lol) and refuse to take parsad just like pandits from fellow gursikh who has vahiguroo jot in him, called anyone who disagree with them- anti panthic, rss, congress, evil snatan, manmatiya, manmukh.

So yeah off course, according to these superamist eltist - only sikh is allowed in sachkhand, hell not even sikhs but only their tribal beleif- they don't even consider nirmale, sevapanthis, udasi sikhs, they all call them - kache, pillaie, dhillaie snantan hindus- hell if sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar gave them darshan with seli topi(one of relics at fort, kartarpur), they will probably knock maharaj topi off and put dummala with aad chand on instead of maharaj divine sargun darshan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yeah i have every reason to be here present traditional views on sachkhand, after all traditional gurmat is de-marganalized/demonized and hijacked by eltist superamist. I refuse to sit here and listen to their "revisionist victorian protestant version of Sikhi".!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sherdil]

I have not read all the posts but my 2 cents worth.

When we write disparaging remarks about Sri Ram Chander or Bhagwan Krishan or are flippant about them it shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

Through the yugas Akaal Purkh sent down His avtars to put the masses on to the correct path. Satyugs reign was presided over by Bhavan Ji, Tretra Yuga was presided over by Sri Ram Chander, Dwapar yug was presided over by Bhagwan Krishan Ji and in the present time of Kaal Yuga it is presided over by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and 10 patshahi’s.

If you have any respect for Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale Ji or any mahapurkh then you should have just as much respect if not more for Sri Ram Chandra Ji and Bhagwan Krishan Ji, they were no ordinary souls, they were one with Akaal and all those who disrespect them will have to answer for their deeds.

Yes, Guru Sahib Ji writes about avatars and about how they were created and destroyed by Akaal, but ONLY Guru Ji has the level to say these things, we murakh fools who now nothing have no right to dis them. In Krishan Avatar composition Guru Ji writes with such haunting beauty about Krishan Ji.

This is what your Guru writes in the opening part of Shastar Naam Mala.

All these names - knife, sharpened small knife, karad( small dagger) , dagger, bugda (a curved cutlass). Please help me from all the worldly illusions.

You initially created this universe and then created the (different) sects. You create conflict amongst them and then help them resolve it.

You are (Lord) Raam. You are Siri Krishan and you are the incarnations of (Lord) Vishnu. You are the subjects and you are also the Emperor of this universe.

I'm not implying that these devtas didn't exist. I'm saying that they were mortals just like us. They had their flaws just like us. To elevate them to the pedestal of Gods and Goddesses I think is blasphemy.

Gurbani doesn't challenge the devtas legitimacy because it doesn't serve any purpose to do so. Rather than knocking them from their pedestal, it is better to say that even the devtas serve Akal Purakh. If the devtas serve Akal Purakh, then why do you waste your time bowing before the devtas?

Can we really compare the devtas with our Gurus and Sant ji? The devtas were preoccupied with self-gratification and worldly things. Did our Gurus or Sant ji ever behave like this?

Aren't we all avatars of the Supreme Brahman? Aren't our thoughts and actions just the drama of Akal Purakh playing out?

[UKLondonSikh]

Wow too much to comment on in this thread!

But N30 Paji for anyone who cares to understand your posts, i think it’s crystal clear you do not advocate any worship of Krishna whatsoever – merely that we need to truly understood the meaning of the word Avtaar and how the so-called Avtaars relate to Gurbani in a metaphorical sense. The problem with certain words is that there are multiple meanings for them!

One thing I think needs emphasising to anybody perhaps in doubt is that never in no way can Krishna, Ram Chander, the Hindu-defined Shiv (in human form), Deva’s or Devti’s be worshipped and that the Gurbani description of Raam, Shiva etc merely uses the aforementioned terms to describe the one formless God.

Only5 Paji i totally agree with you that people serious need to study Sikhi in a bit more depth if they are misinterpreting "de Shiva bar mohe" to worship Lingams etc! However, I would extend the point that this is where those that have issues have certain sections of DG are coming from. And just because they have issues with classic Hindu philosophy does not mean they reject pavithar Amritdhari GurSikhi jeevan one little bit ... it simply means they definitely don’t want the Avtar-heavy Deva-Devti heavy Nihang (or Nang) version of it.

Jsinghnz i totally agree with you in rejection of these avatars and I genuinely feel that Krishna the human being (as opposed to the formless definition) has zero connection to Sikhi except by way of illustrating a moral. However I feel you have perhaps missed the very subtle nuanced points N30 Paji was making. Put it this way, if me, you and N30 Paji were talking to a Tamil Hindu, I can just bet that N30 would be able to explain Sikhi in terms the chap could understand better than me or you ... all the while whilst still being resolutely clear cut that Krishna is not to be worshipped in any way.

As for anybody being in Sachkhand i don’t believe any of us know what is fact, but we can make our own educated guesses (and again I hardly see these as relavant to Sikhi per se).

Osingh Paji i totally disagree with the way you described things. N30 Paji i’m glad you picked up on osingh’s point as it could very much be interpreted by people (especially non-Sikhs who I am no better than) in the wrong way. Anyone who believes in Sikhi automatically thinks that Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s marg is the clearest route for coming closer to ParmAathma but if we start de facto saying that only one particular route is suitable for taking us from London to Paris then I think that’s wrong. But no harm in more people knowing about the shortest route ... just that we cannot brazenly claim that all other routes are invalid.

Sherdil Paji – totally agree with you (not least where you clarify who The Ultimate Teacher is)

Kaljugi Paji – i thought ALL Sikhs understood the mention of Hindu Avatars to be purely metaphorical with not even the slightest hint of those tall tales being taken literally!!! Particularly in light of the multiple genocides this planet has seen in the last 100 years ... there wasn't much divine intervention then ... so we can hardly take 10-headed Ravans literally.

Bundha Paji – Personally, I totally can’t stand the Avtaarwaad concept, which I strongly believe Sikhi rejects but you make a great point that given the reverence Hindu’s hold for these Avatars we need to be careful in how we address them so as not to cause offence to potential future Sikhs. I would still emphasise that Ram Chander the historical human being has no connection to “Raam” as used in Gurbani as 1 word to describe the 1 formless God.

[KhalistaniGunMan]

Speaking from traditional gurmat stand point- I wish there was any sugar coat way of putting this forward. But it appears there isn't.. After decades of de-marganlization and demonization of traditional gurmat concept and those who uphold it, its about time people rise against "protestant version of sikhi", i m not talking about traditions here but mainly talking about sanctity of Vahiguroo theological concept reduced to mere abhramic verison of God.

Elitist superamist ideology came and hijacked gurmat- started super imposing its own view (Victorian protestant thought) on Gurmat and tried shoving Gurmat to tunnel (but maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in to tunnel), traditions are seperate story (another painful chapter), but whole theological definition of God(Vahiguroo) was changed from beautiful divine serene- sargun, shakta-shakti intertwined with nirgun chaitan- advait gurmat metaphysical concept to western/christian idea of God who is-'fearful angry','wrathful', 'who is confined to its adobe who gives naam jhapi to his followers upon arrival where he resides before inspecting his/her uniform' 'full of partiality'- accepting the passport/issuing visa to only those who have - kes/ki, kanga, kirpan, kachera, kara' along with all sarbloh- rest billions of jiv atma were demanded to go back in this earth take birth, follow this form otherwise all souls are naturally doomed in (birth and death cycle) until they take this form.

And God who is only and only confined to "naam shabad" not sargun, nirgun, naam shabad, gyan saroop-advait (Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap), God who only cares about- 'Vahiguroo dhuni', sas grass naam dridh', so so much these elitist superamist try changing vahiguroo to vahguru - Gurmantar, so it matches with their robotic sound resosance- their version of shabad surat marg , they were staunchly against all other mantra (forget about outside mantra, but were staunchly against all the mantra found in gurbani itself!!!!), which provides profound expereince of divine such as- ikongkar, Ongkar, satnaam, ikongkar satgurparsad, Gobinde Mukande Udhare Aparaie Hariang Kariang Nirname Akame, Aad Gureh Nameh Jugad Gureh Nameh Satguru Nameh Sri Gurdev Nameh, these superamist refuse to matha taikh to sri guru granth sahib sargun saroop written in pad ched form (let alone saints lol) and refuse to take parsad just like pandits from fellow gursikh who has vahiguroo jot in him, called anyone who disagree with them- anti panthic, rss, congress, evil snatan, manmatiya, manmukh.

So yeah off course, according to these superamist eltist - only sikh is allowed in sachkhand, hell not even sikhs but only their tribal beleif- they don't even consider nirmale, sevapanthis, udasi sikhs, they all call them - kache, pillaie, dhillaie snantan hindus- hell if sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar gave them darshan with seli topi(one of relics at fort, kartarpur), they will probably knock maharaj topi off and put dummala with aad chand on instead of maharaj divine sargun darshan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yeah i have every reason to be here present traditional views on sachkhand, after all traditional gurmat is de-marganalized/demonized and hijacked by eltist superamist. I refuse to sit here and listen to their "revisionist victorian protestant version of Sikhi".!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fantastic post brother!!...you tell them protestant reformist sikhs!!

[VanHelsingh]

Kaljugi Paji – i thought ALL Sikhs understood the mention of Hindu Avatars to be purely metaphorical with not even the slightest hint of those tall tales being taken literally!!! Particularly in light of the multiple genocides this planet has seen in the last 100 years ... there wasn't much divine intervention then ... so we can hardly take 10-headed Ravans literally.

Well I was told off (in a nice way I might add) for thinking that such mentions of avataars and their adventures are purely metaphors; instead we should view them as literal occurences.

[Singh559]

While we're on the subject of Avatars. I've been resisting the itch to post this for some time, but I couldn't take the itch no more!