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Krishna In Sikhism


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No one is insulting the bhagats here. Like I said, the very fact they reached upto Karam Khand without even becoming Sikhs and receiving Gurmantar means that they were astounding souls, as this is a virtually impossible thing to do. Let alone non-sikhs, most sikhs who have gurmantar do not even reach karam khand until after many lives using vaheguru gurmantar! Think how great the bhagti of the bhagats must have been to reach the khand just before Sachkhand without even having the satguru. However, all that is being said is, no one, not even the bhagats got to sachkhand UNTIL they met Satguru Ji. Thats all. You may not agree with that view, but don't make it out like anyone, especially not Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh, is insulting the bhagats.

I was speaking with an elderly muslim from Pakistan last year, and I was asking him about Bhagat Farid Ji, and he said to me, that Guru Nanak's turban was given to him by Bhagat Farid Ji. He had no clue, only what some muddled things had been said to him. The Farid, that was known as Ganj-Shakker, lived in the 12 century, and the Farid that Guru Nanak Ji met, was his grandson.

And what makes you so sure that the bani of Bhagat Farid Ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not by Farid Sani Aka Sheikh Brahm (grandson of Farid Ganjshakar)? How do you know that it is Farid Ganjshakar's bani?

It is also huge insult to "kabirpanthis", "baba farid followers", "ravidassia panthis" , "bhagat namdev followers" and other bhagats (followers). As it arrogantly shows, that all their- bhagats (be it kabir, farid, ravidas, bhagat namdev) mystic devotion (bhagti, naam simran, gyan) towards One Vahiguroo was not successful until sri guru nanak dev nirankar met them in sargun saroop and gave them "gurmat" naam ( again amazing brand name ) and mukhti.

According to you we should remove; mitee muslman ki shabad as it is an insult to the Moghuls, all shabads against moorti pooja as they offend moorti poojaks, shabads such as 'satgur bajjho gur nahi koee' as they insult all the gurus out there and their chelay, bhai gurdas vara that prove the islam is wrong about their only being seven worlds, the very fact that satguru ji is pargat is an insult to mohammed who said no more prophets and revelations after him, etc. etc. Absolutely nonsensical point you have made, of course many things about Sikhi will contradict what other faiths say and of course their followers will take offence. I suppose you probably support the moghuls who persecuted our Guru Sahibs as in your view they were of course justified in being offended by Guru Sahib!

Also, its interesting to know that you would classify a term found in gurbani, 'gurmat naam' as a brand name.

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So its impossible that bhai sahib would call gurbani a kirtam naam as gurbani and kirtam naams are two different categories.

Really? Damodhar, preetam comes in Gurbani yet those are called kirtam naam? The question here again, Did bhai sahib beleive - ikongkar- maha mantra, ongkar- bij mantra (maha upma of this mantra in jaap sahib and in sri guru granth sahib ji), mool mantar - ikongkar up to gurparsad or nanak hosbhi sach are keertam naam?

According to my understanding kirtam naam are those naam which shows only one or more aspect of Vahiguroo attributes but still does not have full sargun and nirgun gyan of Vahiguroo.

Ikongkar, Ongkar, Satnaam, Mool mantra, Raam (mentioned many many many times in Gurbani) among others, all have nirgun and sargun gyan of Vahiguroo , therefore not kirtaam naam.!!

It's pretty evident, how sikhs discriminate within gurbani and within gurughar mantars by claiming everything ( instead of right ones lack nirgun and sargun attributes) except - Vahiguroo mantar ...as inferior - kirtam naam..this is what happens when there is lack of understanding of nirgun and sargun form of Vahiguroo!!

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The Gursikhs are in a blissful frame of mind attuned to One Waheguru

with the blessings of our Guru Sahibaans.

Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator. ||12|| (33 Sawayeas, Guru Gobind Singh Ji).

The pretenders are lost in a maze of confusion worrying about their avatars and

wondering if they managed to reach sachkhand or not.

To add to the confounded confusion, they are heartbroken when our Tenth Master,

Guru Gobind Singh ji declares,

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang

Their confused state of mind is illustrated when they go on and meekly

say, "vahiguroo ji came in sargun saroop of krishan and ram chand maharaj for its bhagats".

I can only feel pity at their utter lack of knowledge of the basic fundamentals of Sikhi as under.

Guru Nanak, the first Sikh Guru, stressed the oneness of God, Immanent, Creator, ‘who is the Timeless, Eternal Reality, Formless, Unborn, Unincarnated and self-existent without Fear and Rancor and who is realised by the Enlightener’s Grace.’

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Really? Damodhar, preetam comes in Gurbani yet those are called kirtam naam? The question here again, Did bhai sahib beleive - ikongkar- maha mantra, ongkar- bij mantra (maha upma of this mantra in jaap sahib and in sri guru granth sahib ji), mool mantar - ikongkar up to gurparsad or nanak hosbhi sach are keertam naam?

According to my understanding kirtam naam are those naam which shows only one aspect of Vahiguroo attributes and does not have full sargun and nirgun gyan of Vahiguroo.

Ikongkar, Ongkar, Satnaam, Mool mantra, Raam (mentioned many many many times in Gurbani), all have nirgun and sargun gyan of Vahiguroo , therefore not kirtaam naam.!!

It's pretty evident, how sikhs discriminate within gurbani and within gurughar mantars by claiming everything accept - Vahiguroo mantar as kirtam naam..this is what happens when there is lack of understanding of nirgun and sargun!!

If I sang a complete line of a shabad ,eg. 'har har sant jana ki jeevan' it is obviously not a kirtam NAAM as;

1) An entire sentence is not a noun (Naam)

2) It is obviously a line of dhur ki bani and it comes only from the Guru, no human could come up with it himself.

Now if i just did jap of the word 'Har', then I am reciting a kirtam naam as;

1)It is a noun (a naam)

2) It is not part of Gurbani, but even a non-sikh who has never heard of Gurbani could come up with the idea of japping 'Har'.

To answer your question in simple English, no Bhai Sahib did not believe Gurbani was a kirtam naam, as that would just be illogical. He did however beleive that individual words that people may use to describe God in one word are kirtam NAAMS. Also, Ik oankaar is a self contained bani with itself.

It's pretty evident, how sikhs discriminate within gurbani and within gurughar mantars by claiming everything accept - Vahiguroo mantar as kirtam naam..this is what happens when there is lack of understanding of nirgun and sargun!!

You just said yourself that a kirtam naam is one which does not include both sargun and nirgun, I agree with you completely, a kirtam naam is a name any one could come up with to descirbe one attribute of Vaheguru.

Now can you tell me;

1) What other singular naam is there apart from 'Vaheguru', which contains both nirgun and sargun gyan i.e. Satnam? Remember an entire shabad of Gurbani can not be called a 'naam' as naam means noun, not an entire composition such as a Gurbani shabad.

2)What being apart from Satguru could know and reveal such a Naam?

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Maybe you cant read properly. Bhai Sahib said that BEFORE becoming Sikhs, the bhagats only reached karam khand, but they did reach Sachkhand after becoming Sikhs. The fact that they were among the rare few who actually reached karam khand with kirtam naam only says how great the bhagats were.

That IS insulting to the Bhagats, especially from Randhir Singh, who could not have known Sachkhand himself. Gurbani is testament to the fact that the Bhagats had reached Sachkhand. Again I say you shouldnt believe one man, over Gurbani.

No one is insulting the bhagats here. Like I said, the very fact they reached upto Karam Khand without even becoming Sikhs and receiving Gurmantar means that they were astounding souls, as this is a virtually impossible thing to do. Let alone non-sikhs, most sikhs who have gurmantar do not even reach karam khand until after many lives using vaheguru gurmantar! Think how great the bhagti of the bhagats must have been to reach the khand just before Sachkhand without even having the satguru. However, all that is being said is, no one, not even the bhagats got to sachkhand UNTIL they met Satguru Ji. Thats all. You may not agree with that view, but don't make it out like anyone, especially not Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh, is insulting the bhagats.

whether I agree or not means nothing, Gurbani is the key. Gurbani holds that the Bhagats had reached Sachkhand, before their Bani was compiled in Adi Granth. The Bhagats were one with Waheguru.

And what makes you so sure that the bani of Bhagat Farid Ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not by Farid Sani Aka Sheikh Brahm (grandson of Farid Ganjshakar)? How do you know that it is Farid Ganjshakar's bani?

Because Ganjshakker was the one that wrote the Bani, his followers were just repeaters of his words.

According to you we should remove; mitee muslman ki shabad as it is an insult to the Moghuls, all shabads against moorti pooja as they offend moorti poojaks, shabads such as 'satgur bajjho gur nahi koee' as they insult all the gurus out there and their chelay, bhai gurdas vara that prove the islam is wrong about their only being seven worlds, the very fact that satguru ji is pargat is an insult to mohammed who said no more prophets and revelations after him, etc. etc. Absolutely nonsensical point you have made, of course many things about Sikhi will contradict what other faiths say and of course their followers will take offence. I suppose you probably support the moghuls who persecuted our Guru Sahibs as in your view they were of course justified in being offended by Guru Sahib!

Now Bhaji you are just being silly.

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It's pretty evident, how sikhs discriminate within gurbani and within gurughar mantars by claiming everything accept - Vahiguroo mantar as kirtam naam..this is what happens when there is lack of understanding of nirgun and sargun!!

1) What other naam is there apart from 'Vaheguru', which contains both nirgun and sargun gyan i.e. Satnam?

2)What being apart from Satguru could know and reveal such a Naam?

1. Ikongkar, Ongkar, Satnaam, Mool Mantar, Raam (Raam in Gurbani is refered to both nirgun vahiguroo and sargun saroop- ram chandar ji mentioned many many many times most towards nirgun), Sohang (has full nirgun gyan not recommended for students), Aad gureh Nameh Jugad Gureh Nameh Satnaam Gureh Sri Gurdev Gureh Nameh, Ikongkar Satigurparsad among others which are found in Gurbani.

2. a) For sikhs- mahapursh in form of panj pyares. Lot of taksali mahapursh did lakhs of mool mantar da jaap and got bhramgyan ..according to your logic, they were doing kirtam naam and therefore - karam khand.!!? But not really that suprising as you beleive that all the bhagats were in karam khand until they saw green light.

b) For bhagats in gurbani, their teachers - (ramanand to kabir) (janak to sukhdev, asthavak to janak) i.e- gangka papan receiving Raam by mahapursh, went to sackhand upon reciting raam naam upon final moment of death.

Now let the same old semantics game begin over satguru ji (which i already clarified in other post)..dont have time to play semantic game.!!

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That IS insulting to the Bhagats, especially from Randhir Singh, who never knew Sachkhand himself. Gurbani is testament to the fact that the Bhagats had reached Sachkhand. Again I say you shouldnt believe one man, over Gurbani.

How is it insulting to the bhagats?

How do you know whether Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji knows Sachkhand or not? Are you Satguru? Are you in Sackhand?

whether I agree or not means nothing, Gurbani is the key. Gurbani holds that the Bhagats had reached Sachkhand, before their Bani was compiled in Adi Granth. The Bhagats were one with Waheguru.

Once again no one said anything about compilation into Adi Granth so your point is invalid. All that is being said is that the bhagats met the Satguru before they reached Sachkhand, and it was only on meeting Satguru Ji and reaching Sachkhand that dhur ki bani was revealed to them. What has compilation of their bani into Sri Adi Granth have to do with this?

Because Ganjshakker was the one that wrote the Bani, his followers were just repeaters of his words.

But how do you know that the particular bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was by Ganjshakar ji?

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How is it insulting to the bhagats?

How do you know whether Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji knows Sachkhand or not? Are you Satguru? Are you in Sackhand?

whether I agree or not means nothing, Gurbani is the key. Gurbani holds that the Bhagats had reached Sachkhand, before their Bani was compiled in Adi Granth. The Bhagats were one with Waheguru.

Once again no one said anything about compilation into Adi Granth so your point is invalid. All that is being said is that the bhagats met the Satguru before they reached Sachkhand, and it was only on meeting Satguru Ji and reaching Sachkhand that dhur ki bani was revealed to them. What has compilation of their bani into Sri Adi Granth have to do with this?

But how do you know that the particular bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was by Ganjshakar ji?

It is insulting to insinuate that the Bhagats never reached Sachkhand until they met Guru Nanak, as some of them had already gone there from this earth, some of them never met Guru Ji, as per chronicles. The point about compilation into Adi Grnath, is osinghs saying that only then once their bani was accepted, were they allowed in sachkhand.

I am not Satguru,nor am I in Sachkhand, which i why I cannot cast dispersions on who is there or not. I can only believe what Gurbani tells me, and it tells me, that the Bhagats were in sachkhand, they were one with Waheguru. people who are claiming otherwise, I am beginning to think that they have only heard of Sachkhand but never seen or experienced it, but claim to have full knowledge of it. These are people who's teachings we should be avoiding.

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1. Ikongkar, Ongkar, Satnaam, Mool Mantar, Raam (Raam in Gurbani is refered to both nirgun vahiguroo and sargun saroop- ram chandar ji.), Sohang (has full nirgun gyan not recommended for students), Aad gureh Nameh Jugad Gureh Nameh Satnaam Gureh Sri Gurdev Gureh Nameh, Ikongkar Satigurparsad among others

N30, you lack an understanding of the basic meaning of the word 'NAAM' - Naam means noun, i.e. a singular word. An entire peice of bani cannot be a kirtam naam. Anything more than one word is not a kirtam naam.

Ik Oankaar is considered an entire bani in itself

Mool mantar is not a single word it is a piece of bani, so doing jaap of mool mantar is not doing jaap of a kirtam naam but jaap of a composition.

Satnaam is not one word, correct pad chedd 'Sat' and 'naam'. If i did jaap of 'sat' sat sat, then yes that would be jaap of a kirtam naam. If I did jaap of 'naam' naam naam, then yes that would be jaap of a kirtam naam. If I said 'sat naam' 'sat naam', I would be reciting Gurbani.

And likewise to all other examples you have given exept for 'Raam'.

As for 'Raam', your argument to prove that its both sargun and nirgun gyan is nonsensical. When referring to Vaheguru, Raam is one attribute of Vaheguru, i.e a kirtam naam. Other than that Gurbani has acknowledged that there was a historical figure called Raam, this does not give raam both nirgun and sargun gyan. If my mate's name is Gobind that doesn't suddenly make Gobind a satnam containing nirgun and sargun gyan because someone has that name! Same for sohang.

2. a) For sikhs- mahapursh in form of panj pyares. Lot of taksali mahapursh did lakhs of mool mantar da jaap and got bhramgyan ..according to your logic, they were doing kirtam naam and therefore - karam khand.!!? But not really that suprising as you beleive that all the bhagats were in karam khand until they saw green light.

Panj pyare ARE the Satguru!!! Once agin mool mantar is not a kirtam naam simply by virtue of the fact that its not a single noun, as the literal meaning of the phrase 'kirtam naam' is a noun, i.e. a single word, describing an attribute of Vaheguru.

b) For bhagats in gurbani, their teachers - (ramanand to kabir) (janak to sukhdev, asthavak to janak) i.e- gangka papan receiving Raam by mahapursh, went to sackhand upon reciting raam naam upon final moment of death.

What mantars did they give and how were they so great as to know a satnaam mantar (as you beleive)?

I have already explained how Raam is not satnaam.

You have no proof that Ganika went to sachkhand upon reciting raam raam.

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chatanga, I know its is very difficult for you to understand how to respect elders

but do not show your lack of civility on our forum.

IT IS BHAI SAHIB BHAI RANDHIR SINGH

AND NOT YOUR UNCLE RANDHIR SINGH.

That IS insulting to the Bhagats, especially from Randhir Singh, who could not have known Sachkhand himself. Gurbani is testament to the fact that the Bhagats had reached Sachkhand. Again I say you shouldnt believe one man, over Gurbani.

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