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Krishna In Sikhism


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You earlier said that your problem was that according to osingh bhai sahib said "osinghs saying that only then once their bani was accepted, were they allowed in sachkhand." The quote you have given of osingh does not state that.

On top of that, my very first post in this thread is clarifiying that osingh has written WRONGLY about Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's views. Also, osingh is not quoting, but paraphrasing (and wrongly too!).

Dear God, what is with people's literacy these days!!

I will break down once again what bhai sahib actually said on the matter;

Bhagats reached karam khand through doing jaap of kirtam naam

Bhagats were then called by Guru Sahib from sachkhand

Bhagats became Sikhs, bhagats did ucharan of dhur ki bani.

You may think the above is factually incorrect, but in no way is it insulting bhagats.

Ok Bhaji, you may not term it insulting, but maybe demeaning is more appropriate.

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type in " Ganika" on Sikhito the max and see the results for yourself.

I will furnish this topic with one:

Ganika the prostitute was saved, when her parrot uttered the Lord's Name.

That does not mean she went to sachkhand. Being 'saved' can mean anything from being saved from hell, being saved from reincarnation, being saved from your wordly troubles etc. etc.

If you read the descriptions of the khands before sachkhand, or even the heavens being in anyone of those (especially for non-sikhs) is comparitvely being liberated when comapred to other possible fates like reincarnation etc.

Ok Bhaji, you may not term it insulting, but maybe demeaning is more appropriate.

How is it demeaning? How is it anything negative towards the bhagats in any way?

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I think whatever i need to present i did infront of sangat that sikhs are discriminating within gurbani-..let sangat decide..Raam is not kirtam naam as it has sargun (as it referred in gurbani) and nirgun gyan. Lot of bhagats did raam - naam abhyas got into sachkhand whether you like it or not.

You know what teja singh bhausaria did ?

He started replacing ram with Wah and Har with Gur in Gurbani.

More about bhausarias: http://www.sikhsanga...t-in-the-panth/

I asked everyone what was the urge behind this extreme action- sheer insecurity - he couldn't stand bhagat did naam jaap of raam or bhagata di bani.

I smell the same urge at current time but actions/attacks are far more subtle.so people wake up ..in next 30 years- raam shabad from gurbani will start disappearing again because of subtle actions/attacks!!!!!!!!!!!

My last post on this topic.!

Your classic retreat, bhasauria calling. Very mature. Completely unrelated to the topic or any views expressed in this thread (by myself anyway).

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That does not mean she went to sachkhand. Being 'saved' can mean anything from being saved from hell, being saved from reincarnation, being saved from your wordly troubles etc. etc.

If you read the descriptions of the khands before sachkhand, or even the heavens being in anyone of those (especially for non-sikhs) is comparitvely being liberated when comapred to other possible fates like reincarnation etc.

How is it demeaning? How is it anything negative towards the bhagats in any way?

We both know what Guru Ji is driving at here, re Ganika,

re : negativity towards the Bhagats, it sounds like they wasted all their bhagati on a lower reward, unitl they met the Guru who put them on the straight path, but what I am going to do tomorrow, is look up some of the Bhagats Jeevans to see if im going wrong somewhere. I'm out until tomorrow, its almost 9.30 and I should be asleep.

May the Guru protect.

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We both know what Guru Ji is driving at here, re Ganika,

re : negativity towards the Bhagats, it sounds like they wasted all their bhagati on a lower reward, unitl they met the Guru who put them on the straight path, but what I am going to do tomorrow, is look up some of the Bhagats Jeevans to see if im going wrong somewhere. I'm out until tomorrow, its almost 9.30 and I should be asleep.

May the Guru protect.

The shabad is not saying that Ganika reached Sackhand/became one with Vaheguru. She was saved in a relative sense compared to what her fate would have been had she not turned to bhagti. She was saved from her bad karams, she was saved from the entire cycle of reincarnation etc. possibly refers to reaching one of the realms that she believed in, i.e. what she counted as liberation.

Its not an insult as they nor anyone else would not be expected to know about vaheguru gurmantar until they met Satguru as only Satguru gives this mantar. If anything it simply saying that all mantars apart from Vaheguru mantar are limited.

Karam Khand is hardly a waste of bhagti! Goodness me! 'Straight path' - no one said they were on a wrong path that they needed to be put on the 'straight path', they reached the highest thing anyone could without the Satguru and vaheguru mantar - thats actually a major praise to come from someone who believes in supremacy of vaheguru gurmantar above kirtam naam. Hardly a waste of bhagti as its that bhagti that caused them to be selected to be the greatest bhagats ever!

In bhai sahib's views gyan khand was where the leaders of other faiths are, so people following other faiths can only get to gyan khand. When bhai sahib says that the bhagats reached karam khand without even being sikhs, without even having vaheguru gurmantar, thats possibly one of the greatest praises he could give them. Its an acknowledgement that even before becoming Sikhs they were among the greatest bhagats ever to exist as they must have done immense bhagti with the kirtam naam to reach karam khand. Its not insulting to say that the bhagats, just like every other soul that exists, needed the Satguru to get to sachkhand.

Even today its the souls that have done immense bhagti in the paths that they have come from who become the best sikhs when they are incarnated into the janam where they recieve sikhi.

Just another thought, its a well known sakhi that Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji's mother passed away without recieving amrit but was then brought back to life because she certainly did not deserve any punishment, but neither could she go to sachkhand - it was because how great she was and who she gave birth to that she was brought back to life to recieve amrit so that she could go to sachkhand. Now thats not an insult to mata ji, just the working principle that without being a Sikh of Satguru no one can reach sackhand.

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Listen to this N30 Singh Jee and Chatanga Jee

Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwalay is saying that all the Bhagats whose bani is in SGGSJ met and became Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Jee! Now are you going to say Sant Jee is also protestant or Bhasouria??

Sabh te vadda Satgur Nanak!!!!

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Listen to this N30 Singh Jee and Chatanga Jee

Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwalay is saying that all the Bhagats whose bani is in SGGSJ met and became Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Jee! Now are you going to say Sant Jee is also protestant or Bhasouria??

Sabh te vadda Satgur Nanak!!!!

I already mentioned this singh in this topic...perhaps you missed my post:

All bhagats may have have met sri guru nanak dev nirankar and also may have came back in form of panj pyares or among other bhramgyani mahapursh (although, there is difference of opnion among historians on this) but let just say - they came and met sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar but that does not mean, they came back to get "mukhti" as its shown that they came back to mukhti to claim superamacy of protestant sikhi which protestant sikhs follow- its huge insult to bhagats (found in sri guru granth sahib ji) devotion and dedication towards Vahiguroo -

-devotion shown in sargun bhagti

-devotion shown via naam simran of whatever naam they got from their teachers and did naam abhyas- surat shabad yog

-devotion shown in nirgun bhagti and as result got kaival mukhti.

It is also huge insult to "kabirpanthis", "baba farid followers", "ravidassia panthis" , "bhagat namdev followers" and other bhagats (followers). As it arrogantly shows, that all their- bhagats (be it kabir, farid, ravidas, bhagat namdev) mystic devotion (bhagti, naam simran, gyan) towards One Vahiguroo was not successful until sri guru nanak dev nirankar met them in sargun saroop and gave them "gurmat" naam ( again amazing brand name ) and mukhti.

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I already mentioned this singh in this topic...perhaps you missed my post:

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Veerji, please listen to that video carefully, there is no talk of reincarnation of the Bhagats or something else. Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwalay are clearly saying that Ramanand and the other bhagats got the sikhya of Nirgun Sargun etka only after meeting with Guru Nanak Dev Jee. If you still choose to not listen to Sant Jee and instead misinterpret his words as you did in the Sri Chand thread than not much more can be said. But fact remains that the Bhagats Sahibaan were Bhagats of Satgur Nanak Dev Jee.

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self edit- long post due to posted earlier.

i listened to audio of sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale, i redact my earlier statement that bhagat may have met sri guru nanak dev ji. After listening to audio its clear all bhagats met sri guru nanak dev ji, but the main sticking point here is - when they met with( exception of bhagat ramanand-nirgun sargun etka) all the other bhagats didn't get nor they had to get gurmat naam or mukhti not according to audio ,they were already mukht when they met sri guru nanak dev ji if we believe otherwise we are going gurbani sidhant on bhagata di bani . Gyani gyan singh nirmala from where sant ji is clearly quoting from, does not mention anything about gurmat naam and mukhti in nanak or panth parkash

and the other bhagats got the sikhya of Nirgun Sargun etka only after meeting with Guru Nanak Dev Jee

I listened to the audio again, it was bhagat ramanand who got sikhiya of nirgun sargun ekta only after meeting with guru nanak dev ji, sant ji didn't say anything regarding other bhagats who were already mukht. I am sorry i had to be this technical, you give protestant thought an arm , they want whole leg..!!..we already know from likes of - bhausaria, darshan ragi, afghani etc.

Coming back to this topic- Although i have full confidence in bachan of sant hari singh ji randhawale when he mentioned- krishan is in sachkhand I will do further search in katha of sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale regarding krishan ji status in Gurmat. As i mentioned earlier, gurmat shows full glass view not the protestant thought- only seeing half empty glass, not pseduo snanatan thought- only seeing half full glass!!!

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