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Krishna In Sikhism


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Please answer my questions in my post please.

For example Muslims do not even believe in karam philosophy or birth rebirth related to our karams. They believe in one life in which they will be judged and then resurrected on the day of judgement to enter either heaven or hell and this is a fundamental concept in Islam.

The day of judgement and return of the mahdi along with Isa Masih (hazrat Jesus) is an event that Muslims are awaiting.

Please explain how Muslims will enter Sachkhand? Who is their Satguru? Where have they gotten Naam?

Muslims believe in Heaven and Hell whereas sri Jap ji sahib describes various khands.

With all these major differences how can the Semitic religions and Gursikhs reach the same destination?

As for previous bhagats such as bhagat Kabir ji they had immense bhagti and had indeed travelled very far in terms of spirituality. As per bhai sahib they had reached Karam Khand which is just below Sachkhand. Indeed these bhagats where the most spirituality advanced of their time and that is why Guru Sahib met them in person as in Sheikh Farid ji. New evidence is showing that Guru Sahib met these bhagats in person. However will we just deny this new evidence just because it does not fit with a prior school of thought?

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Please read between the lines you will get your answer:

In general we should be careful being "authoritarian" on other dharam theology without looking and studying at other dharams in depth. I think most of us look at other dharam outer layer and start jumping the gun. It's kinda like same - person from other dharam looks at our sikh dharam via lense of sikh missionary who believes - main aim for sikh is to good human being and do seva (as they don't beleive in naam simran) nor they beleive in heaven/hell/reincarnation and sachkhand and they think thats sikh beleif. Off course, mystic traditions- such as sufism/gnostic of all religions are not very popular because of 80% of so called dharamis/religious people are nothing but bunch of goons have hijacked their own dharam for their own ideological war fare, political gains, you know herding and controlling like minded sheep mentality so they can have power. Religion is like commodity for these guys..!!.

We are quite lucky all though we have maryada- rules as well- Sikhi start itself or present itself as a mystic tradition than your typical "ism" Victorian version of religion as i said earlier-

Out of all mystic traditions, clearly gurmat is distinct and an short cut way to get to sachkhand..!!

With that being said, one could still hold an right position, consistent with all samparda's and saint orders in Sikhism that -sackhand is not exclusive to sikhs

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As for previous bhagats such as bhagat Kabir ji they had immense bhagti and had indeed travelled very far in terms of spirituality. As per bhai sahib they had reached Karam Khand which is just below Sachkhand. Indeed these bhagats where the most spirituality advanced of their time and that is why Guru Sahib met them in person as in Sheikh Farid ji. New evidence is showing that Guru Sahib met these bhagats in person. However will we just deny this new evidence just because it does not fit with a prior school of thought?

With all due respect to bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji,

I and i m sure whole sant mandali- all traditional sampardav's in traditional gurmat do not agree with this observation, find it quite- insulting, outrageous and totally unfair to bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji especially after reading bhagat bani in sri guru granth sahib maharaj.!!

All bhagats may have have met sri guru nanak dev nirankar and also may have came back in form of panj pyares or among other bhramgyani mahapursh (although, there is difference of opnion among historians on this) but let just say - they came and met sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar but that does not mean, they came back to get "mukhti" as its shown that they came back to mukhti to claim superamacy of protestant sikhi which protestant sikhs follow- its huge insult to bhagats (found in sri guru granth sahib ji) devotion and dedication towards Vahiguroo -

-devotion shown in sargun bhagti

-devotion shown via naam simran of whatever naam they got from their teachers and did naam abhyas- surat shabad yog

-devotion shown in nirgun bhagti and as result got kaival mukhti.

It is also huge insult to "kabirpanthis", "baba farid followers", "ravidassia panthis" , "bhagat namdev followers" and other bhagats (followers). As it arrogantly shows, that all their- bhagats (be it kabir, farid, ravidas, bhagat namdev) mystic devotion (bhagti, naam simran, gyan) towards One Vahiguroo was not successful until sri guru nanak dev nirankar met them in sargun saroop and gave them "gurmat" naam ( again amazing brand name ) and mukhti.

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Listen form 0:40 to 0:50 in which Sant Kartar Singh ji states that Gurbani of bhagats was only parvaan after they uttered it in the hazoor of Guru Sahib:

According to your logic this would be insulting as well i.e. all the bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib requiring kirpa of Guru Sahib to utter Gurbani.

I do not find bhai sahib's or Sant Kartar Singh ji's thought insulting at all. For me Guru Nanak is Satguru and through his kirpa we can reach the highest levels of sprituality. No doubt other dharams can also reach lofty destinations but I have faith in Guru Nanak and dhur ki bani, bania sir bani.

Gurbani mentions that Gurbani is "bania sir bani" do you find this insulting also?

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While I agree with much of what he has said, Osingh's statement about what bhai sahib said about bhagats is not totally correct. The full thing bhai sahib said was that the bhagats only reached up to karam kand while japping kirtam naam and not satnam gurmantar - Vaheguru. Bhai Sahib says that they were then called from kram khand, became hs Sikhs and they then, under hukam of Satguru recited for the first time the bani that became part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This is not an insult to any bhagats, but simply illustrates that without Satguru, without Satnam Gurmantar - Vaheguru, no one can reach the ultimate stage.

If you believe that the bhagats were already enlightend then answer these questions:

1) Why was not all writings of bhagats incorporated into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? If they were enlgihtened beforehand then clearly ALL their bani would have been something we should read.

2)If bhagat kabeer ji was enlgihtened before, then how can you explain his external, earlier writings which contain sexist tones?

If we accept What bhai sahib says we have an answer to the above two questions - The earlier writings were mot inlcuded because they were written before the bhagats recieved total enlgihtenment. The reason the particular banis that ARE included in Gurbani is because they were eevealed throu the bhagats after meeting guru sahib and gaining full enlightenment, because of this they were ale to channel perfect. pure dhur ki bani.

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GPS you are blowing out of proportion or taking me out of context- There is a major difference between - Gurbani of bhagats was only parvaan after they uttered it in the hazoor of Guru Sahib ( i fully agree with this) and bhagats waiting in karam khand waiting for sri guru nanak dev ji to receive gurmat naam and then got elevated to sackhand.

There is a major difference ..later believe its not consistent with bhagat bani, expereince of kaival mukhti bhagat ji expressed etc.

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Thanks Tuhadas veer for your post.

The full thing bhai sahib said was that the bhagats only reached up to karam kand while japping kirtam naam and not satnam gurmantar - Vaheguru

Thanks for bring that up veer.. i was waiting for that. This is very important question:

Did bhai sahib beleive - ikongkar- maha mantra, ongkar- bij mantra (maha upma of this mantra in jaap sahib and in sri guru granth sahib ji), mool mantar - ikongkar up to gurparsad or nanak hosbhi sach are all kirtam naams?

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Listen form 0:40 to 0:50 in which Sant Kartar Singh ji states that Gurbani of bhagats was only parvaan after they uttered it in the hazoor of Guru Sahib:

But Sant ji has not said, that the Bhagats were not parvaan or united with Waheguru, before their Bani was collected. I have listened to this several times, at no time is Sant Ji saying what you are trying to say here, or make us beleive that Sant Ji has said any such thing.

While I agree with much of what he has said, Osingh's statement about what bhai sahib said about bhagats is not totally correct. The full thing bhai sahib said was that the bhagats only reached up to karam kand while japping kirtam naam and not satnam gurmantar - Vaheguru. Bhai Sahib says that they were then called from kram khand, became hs Sikhs and they then, under hukam of Satguru recited for the first time the bani that became part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

If you read the Gurbani of the Bhagats, it is clear that they had already become one with Waheguru, before Guru Sahib even compiled Adi Granth. If Randhir SIngh didnt see this, maybe this tells us more about Bhai Sahib, than it does about the Bhagats.

As for previous bhagats such as bhagat Kabir ji they had immense bhagti and had indeed travelled very far in terms of spirituality. As per bhai sahib they had reached Karam Khand which is just below Sachkhand. Indeed these bhagats where the most spirituality advanced of their time and that is why Guru Sahib met them in person as in Sheikh Farid ji. New evidence is showing that Guru Sahib met these bhagats in person. However will we just deny this new evidence just because it does not fit with a prior school of thought?

There is no new evidence, that Guru Ji met any of the Bhagats that hasnt existed before. People are making up stuff to suit them. Its amazing that you would take the word of Randhir Singh, over Gurbani. If the Bhagats had only reached Karam Khand, then what did Bhai Sahib reach? What chance have we SIkhs nowadays got?

I was speaking with an elderly muslim from Pakistan last year, and I was asking him about Bhagat Farid Ji, and he said to me, that Guru Nanak's turban was given to him by Bhagat Farid Ji. He had no clue, only what some muddled things had been said to him. The Farid, that was known as Ganj-Shakker, lived in the 12 century, and the Farid that Guru Nanak Ji met, was his grandson.

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Thanks Tuhadas veer for your post.

Thanks for bring that up veer.. i was waiting for that. This is very important question:

Did bhai sahib beleive - ikongkar- maha mantra, ongkar- bij mantra (maha upma of this mantra in jaap sahib and in sri guru granth sahib ji), mool mantar - ikongkar up to gurparsad or nanak hosbhi sach are all kirtam naams?

No offence but your question itself is illogical, its like asking do I believe oranges are vegetables. The very meaning of the word kirtam naam is a NAME, i.e. a noun for Vaheguru which describes one of Vaheguru's virtues, eg. Raam, Har etc. For bhai sahib to call something like mool mantar a kirtam naam would mean he doesn't know what kirtam naam means lol. So its impossible that bhai sahib would call gurbani a kirtam naam as gurbani and kirtam naams are two different categories.

If you read the Gurbani of the Bhagats, it is clear that they had already become one with Waheguru, before Guru Sahib even compiled Adi Granth. If Randhir SIngh didnt see this, maybe this tells us more about Bhai Sahib, than it does about the Bhagats.

Where have I or Bhai Sahib said anything about compilation of Sri Adi Granth?

If the Bhagats had only reached Karam Khand, then what did Bhai Sahib reach? What chance have we SIkhs nowadays got?

Maybe you cant read properly. Bhai Sahib said that BEFORE becoming Sikhs, the bhagats only reached karam khand, but they did reach Sachkhand after becoming Sikhs. The fact that they were among the rare few who actually reached karam khand with kirtam naam only says how great the bhagats were. As for your question of 'what chance have we Sikhs nowadays got' , the whole point illustrated by what bhai sahib said is that Sikhs (infact only sikhs) have the way to get to sachkhand thanks to the Satguru, as it was only after becoming Sikhs that the Bhagats reached their full greatness and did ucharan of dhur ki bani.

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