Krishna In Sikhism

[VanHelsingh]

^^^ Well from the little I know of the show I understand it's based on a few of the concepts being discussed. But the term 'bender' means something quite different in the UK...

[Singh559]

edit- to keep this discussion serious, I feel I am learning more.

[N30S1NGH]

Ummm ok , this is my final attempt on this topic.

In order to clarify, sargun avtars and sargun in general relations in relations with Gurmat, lets do something different - an exercise with your surti/intituation.

1. Get your surti or human consciousness into circular/constant(back and forth) flow of sargun-nirgun of Vahiguroo in Gurbani.

2. Let your surti/intituation- flow spontaneously in circle of sargun-nirgun of Vahiguroo.

Human consciousness is sargun in general, so naturally one starts with sargun flow- let your consciousness be in the flow- wherever gurbani is doing upma of Sargun Guru Avtars- Satguru Nanak Dev Ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, physical saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and hari avtars such as - krishan maharaj and sri ram chandar maharaj, naturally once with flow, it will and should go in awe by looking at their splendor divine beauty as Guru avtars and Hari avtars are very embodiment of Vahiguroo himself (as they made out of shud satogun), now as surti travels via shabad guru or gyan of nirgun in the flow towards nirgun, all the sargun along with sargun avtars/creation/vahiguroo resosance(dhuni) + sikh symbolism - dharam- everything- whole universe should fold itself back in advait (non dual) nirgun chaitan( consciouness) sarabvypak(everywhere)- sat(truth) chit(supreme consciouness) anand(blissful)- Vahiguroo.

This perception of flow from sargun to nirgun, nirgun to sargun (constant never ending flow) ends at bhramgyan in maha samadhi, where the flow becomes just one advait Vahiguroo in Nirvakalp Maha Samadhi (thoughtless awareness state- bedah mukht avastha!!!!)

This is just an excerise, imagine being in this flow all the time. I don't know about you guys, but all my doubts/sansa's, ontological/theological roadblock/issues on various avtars all have been destroyed ....hehe...!!!!!!!!!

[Singh559]

Beautiful painting of devte coming to pay respects to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji :

http://www.manglacharan.com/2010/11/guru-nanak-avatarpurb-katha-baba.html

To further advance the discussion, n30 paaji, can you please further explain this line from Sarbloh Granth please?

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼੍ਵਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਲ੍ਯਿੋ ਸ਼ੁਭ ਵੰਸ਼ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨਾ

Sri Guru Nanak is Parmeshvar, taking 'Avatar' in the highest and auspicious lineage [bedi].

- Manglacharan Puran [aka Sarbloh Granth], page 489, Vol. 2

What does the Bedi clan have to do with this?

I will listen to the katha later.

[UKLondonSikh]

Singh559 = Beautiful painting of devte coming to pay respects to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji :

UK = Paji whilst the painting might be artistically beautiful, this is why certain Sikhs who oppose portraits or photos in Gurdware hold the views we do. The painting indicates Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's divinity at birth ... as opposed to focussing on the truths that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj illuminated for the world through their bibek buddhi.

Singh559 = To further advance the discussion, n30 paaji, can you please further explain this line from Sarbloh Granth please?

UK = Sorry Paji i know the question wasn't aimed at me ... but the Bedi clan have no relavance to do with world spirituality and truthful living. In fact, way more corrupt people from that clan in percentage terms in direct contrast to Bhai Jaita Ji or Bhai Lalo Ji as two examples of greater virtuousness. In fact even to compare the two lineages from 1699 onwards probably insults Ranghrete. And this is part of why certain Sikhs do not hold faith in certain sections of DG. To do so is not to deny the importance of Amritdhari jeevan or to doubt for one second our Dashmesh Pitha ... but to have reason to believe that anti-Sikh forces wished to dilute the truth of Sikhi by interjecting irrelavant discourses within the spiritual conversation of Sikhi and Gurbani. Respect to those who believe in 100% of DG but equally those that hold the viewpoint that they have doubts about the authenticity of some sections of DG or SG have an equal faith in Dashmesh Pita and I think it's important that point is recognised. If we recognise that in all of our hearts then there is no way we can talk about the Panth splitting as many seek to portray. Both sides of the coin have utmost faith in Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and that's the truth of it (imho :-)

[Only five]

Old age pretenders who still believe in Avatars can be exposed from a long distance.

ਕਾਹੂ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥12॥

Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator. ||12|| (33 Sawayeas, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

This Shabad is not just telling us to not worship Krishna in physical form, but in any form. Neither is the shabad saying Krishna just fell to physical death. But died spiritually because he could not get rid of the ego( Dasam Bani tells us this). Again magic tricks are being pulled to cover the truth from others eyes. Atma never dies, but spiritually a person can die (remember what Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Maharaj said!!!). Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj explains in katha that don't let the relationship of you and the Guru go bad with the metaphor of milk and water. When it goes bad then you can't bring it back. Hence it is refered to as spiritual death in this life. Maybe in the next lives a person's atma can get mukti, but not this life. So yes a person can spiritually die.

In the way this group wants to say Krishna was an avtar of God, We can say in the same way the criminal who raised his kids in a moral manner and taught others about righteous living, but trafficked drugs for a living is an avtar of God. He had good points about him like Krishna, but ultimately he was under the control of the 5 vices. In this sense everything is an avtar of God. Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj sends everyone down to do 'their' work. Only difference between Krishna and the criminal is that Krishna was sent to spread dharma, where Akal Purakh is worshipped, instead Krishna got others to worship him.

Again i will stress stick to Gurbani and leave these fairy tales people tell behind. One example of these fairy tales is about Sri Chand being liberated after coming to Gurmat. How do we know it is a fairy tale because Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars tells us Sri Chand did not recieve mukhti. One excuse many so called scholars make here is that they say Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani, but want to go against these Vaars by saying Sri Chand was liberated. If Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani understanding, then the Vaars are eternal and beyond time, which means they don't change or someone can say something changed after the Vaars were written. A quick remimder...........Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj was about to put Bhai Sahib's Vaars in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, but out of humility Bhai Sahib said don't. Again fairy tales don't pass the test of Gurbani.

[JSinghnz]

And here is something more for the pretenders and believers in fairy tales to ponder on.

Krishna Avatar is only the translation of hindu historical texts. From the translation³ and explanation of historical texts and Puranas one cannot say that this is the counsel of Guru Gobind Singh Ji to the Sikhs. Concerning religion, writings of the Guru are Jaap Sahib and Sawayeas. There in is only greatness and praise of the Eternal and the Avatars are described as servants of the Lord.

Excerpts taken from Hum Hindu Nahin

Written by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha

Translated by Dr. Jarnail Singh

[JSinghnz]

And even more for the pretenders and the believers of fairy tales

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib got several books of Hindu mythology (Chandi Charitra, Krishanawtar, Ramawtar, Chaubisawtar) translated into Punjabi not with a purpose of worshipping these so-called gods and goddesses but in order to expose them. These so-called gods and goddesses are figures of fiction. They seem to be, in fact, strange persons e.g. jealous of each other, political, diplomatic, conspiracy making feudal. They do not seem to be godly in any manner. Besides, Guru Sahib, in unequivocal words, asked the Sikhs to reject them. In these mythological works there are some ballads of chivalry, bravery, which Guru sahib wanted to narrate in order to invoke spirit of fearlessness and Righteousness among the Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib said;

I do not worship Ganesha

I do not ever worship Krishan or Vishnu

I do not consider them even as such (gods)

I concentrate only on the feet of the Almighty

(Krishanavtar)

Since I have found a place in Your feet (O Almighty),

I don't even look at any one else

Ram, Rahim, Puran, Quaran tell a lot but I don't even bother for them

Simritis, Shastras, Vedas, explain different things but I do not consider them of any worth

O Almighty! by Your Grace I have learnt it all from Your Word

(Ramavtar)

http://www.sikhmarg..../The-Sikhs.html

[N30S1NGH]

Beautiful painting of devte coming to pay respects to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji :

http://www.manglacha...katha-baba.html

To further advance the discussion, n30 paaji, can you please further explain this line from Sarbloh Granth please?

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼੍ਵਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਲ੍ਯਿੋ ਸ਼ੁਭ ਵੰਸ਼ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨਾ

Sri Guru Nanak is Parmeshvar, taking 'Avatar' in the highest and auspicious lineage [bedi].

- Manglacharan Puran [aka Sarbloh Granth], page 489, Vol. 2

What does the Bedi clan have to do with this?

I will listen to the katha later.

Sant Sunder Singh Ji Bhindranwale mother did millions of millions of jaap of mool mantar and patt to beg Vahiguroo for bhramgyani mahapursh, so just to put in contrast- here we are talking about here- Vahiguroo nirankar himself taking Guru avtar- everything has to be perfect with family ancestory- where Vahiguroo ji take Guru avtar- including previous ancestry..so in this case, bedi, sodhi,tehan and bhalla lineage was perfect

Here is more information from sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale from Gurbani Paath Darshan:

Sri man 108 sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale nirmole heera of taksal lists some small facts about the 10 Guru Sahibs on pages 13 to 23 of his book ‘Gurbani Paath Darshan’.

Baba Ji states that the “Bedi” family of Guru Nanak Maharaaj can be linked back to a Kush the son of Siri Raam Chandra. And because a descendant of Kush studied the Vedas at Kanshee the family was called the “Bedi” family.

Guru Angad Maharaaj Ji’s “Tehan” lineage is said to go back to to the son of Siri Lashman Ji whose name was Takh and hence his lineage was known as the ‘Tehan’ family.

Guru Amardass Ji’s “Bhalla” lineage can be linked to the brother of Siri Raam Chandra whose name was Bharath, his son Bhallan is said to have given his name to the “Bhalla” family.

Guru Raamdass Ji’s “Sodhi” lineage can be linked back to Luv the son of Siri Raam Chandra. The descendants of Luv won over the kingdom of “Snoaudh” and from there the “Sodhi” family descends.

In this way Baba Ji has linked all of the Gurus back to the family of Siri Raam Chandra Ji. We cannot deny these links as they are agreed upon not only by Panth-Rattan Baba Gurbachan Singh ‘Khalsa’ but also many other Nirmala, Udasi and Sevapanthi Gurmukh Pyare, Sadhu Sants. This is also confirmed by the writings of Dashmesh Pitta Guru Gobind Singh in ‘Bachittar-Natak’.

[UKLondonSikh]

..so in this case, bedi, sodhi,trehan and bhalla lineage was perfect

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Singh559 Paji ... I have to totally disagree with my respected brother N30 ... and all i'd say is that family histories are irrelavant to the picture ... and even a small mention of them in SG ... only serves to temporarily dim the roshni of the Truth of SatNaam that Guru Sahib made clear