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Krishna In Sikhism


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Why is it krishana seems to recieve some praise and then outright ridiculed and looked down upon in gurbani. This proves he didn't reach highest destination. How could guru sahib ever write insults against someone at pooran avastha? However he was also praised considering he wasn't a normal person. He did reach some higher realm and had alot of powers.

The sants your thinking of cannot have reached the real gurmat sackhand. They've had some other mystical wonderous experience and mistaked it for sachkhand. This is common problem amongst sants. Thats why they think krishan is in sackhand. Why do you ignore Guru Nanak Dev in favour of your human sant gurus? There's a difference between having a role model and checking their vichaar with gurbani all the time to make sure they are inline with gurmat and its another thing to ignore guru sahib and blindly believe in your mahapurash. I challenge you to present recording of Sant Gurbachan Singh ji saying krishna reached the sachkhand which gurbani mentions. You'll find the opposite. kyqy pvx pwxI vYsMqr kyqy kwn mhys ] kaethae pavan paanee vaisa(n)thar kaethae kaan mehaes ||

So many winds, waters and fires; so many Krishnas and Shivas.

From jap ji sahib in gyan khand pauri.

Now talk...

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KhalistaniGunMan = Anyone who doesnt accept Sri Dasam granth sahib ji and Sr Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji in their entirety do not love sri guru gobind singh ji as they reject his divine bani...simple!

UK = Have you ever thought that the enemies of the Sikh Panth could have interjected their false agenda into parts of DG and SG and hence why so many Amritdhari GurSikhs do not accept certain elements of DG + SG ... which are in tandem with Hinduism but stand distinctly at odds to Gurmat.

KhalistaniGunMan = the panth is already split with deep divisions

UK = Where you see disunity, I see Unity (albeit in a lateral sense). The Pro-DG crew have 100% faith in Dashmesh Pithah even going to the extent of accepting writings which clearly contradict Gurmat. But in spite of that, one can see their prem for Dasme PaathShah. All I request you bruv is that you try to see that others have an equal respect for Dasme PaathShah as they can't stomach these indirect slanders of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Ie everyone in the Panth is united in their respect for Dasme PaathShah ... so yeah it's a forum and we can debate with pyaar and respect ... but no need for us to lose the plot and suggest a SurajMani type end for Dhunda Sahib simply because he dares to believe that the Birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib is more relavant to what Sikhi is about than the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories.

KhalistaniGunMan = and the panth divides even further with sikhs like you around who reject gurbani of dasmesh pita

UK = No Sikh on the planet will reject authentic bani of Dashmesh Pithah. However, Sikhs have rights granted by the 1God to reject that which is patently false and written by anti-Sikh authors in contradiction to Gurmat. Why should Sikhs marginalise Amritdhari jeevan in comparison to your Durga?

KhalistaniGunMan = your no better than the heretical missionary naastiks

UK = That's what's laughable bro - you brand those that oppose anti-Gurmat writings as heretics ... and those that faithfully believe in Ik Onkar without deviation as "naastiks" ... but somehow the Nihung badboyz getting high on bhang, praising Indira's Phoola pimp and worshipping Durga are "believers"!!! LoL

KhalistaniGunMan = theres nothing more sickening than people who reject divine gurbani just because they cant stomach the reference to hindu devas and sakhis

UK = Nobody has criticised referencing Hindu Deva's for the metaphorical illustration of a moral but where those stories begin to suggest anti-Gurmat practices then every Guru ka Sikh has the right to challenge such blatant anti-Gurbani nonsense ... particularly when it was interjected by the Mughals and anti-Sikh forces.

KhalistaniGunMan = i know exactly what group you belong to by your post

UK = I don't belong to no jathebandi bro. I'm just a simple Sikh. Full stop.

KhalistaniGunMan = guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage?

UK = LoL, KGM Paji do you actually seriously believe human beings are descended from the Hindu Devta - the Sun God (Surya) and his Hindu Goddess wives Saranya and Chhaya!? Good luck believing in your Suraj Devta!

KhalistaniGunMan = yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani

UK = So Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaano" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and you're so gullible that you cannot see this is a blatant interjection by pro-caste forces aligned with Aurangzeb in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan is all i can say.

Just ask your conscience the following questions Paji:

  • Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations?

  • Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?

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ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang 98

Now some have done arth of this pangtee by translating the world 'Keet' as servant instead of worm. But if you look at Mahan Kosh the word 'Keet' is translated as insect/worm. Also in Sri Japjee Sahib Jee the word 'Keet' is also used as insect/worm.

keettaa a(n)dhar keett kar dhosee dhos dhharae ||

Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee - Ang 2

sun galaa aakaas kee keettaa aaee rees ||

Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee - Ang 7

---------------------------------

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang 98

If Sri Krishan Bhagvan is in Sachkhand then why would Guru Sahib rather than praise him, use such language for Sri Krishan Bhagvan who is a Pooran Brahmgianni? Can you ever see Guru Sahib using such language for Baba Budha Jee or Bhai Gurdaas Jee?

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ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang 98

Now some have done arth of this pangtee by translating the world 'Keet' as servant instead of worm. But if you look at Mahan Kosh the word 'Keet' is translated as insect/worm. Also in Sri Japjee Sahib Jee the word 'Keet' is also used as insect/worm.

keettaa a(n)dhar keett kar dhosee dhos dhharae ||

Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee - Ang 2

sun galaa aakaas kee keettaa aaee rees ||

Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee - Ang 7

---------------------------------

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang 98

If Sri Krishan Bhagvan is in Sachkhand then why would Guru Sahib rather than praise him, use such language for Sri Krishan Bhagvan who is a Pooran Brahmgianni? Can you ever see Guru Sahib using such language for Baba Budha Jee or Bhai Gurdaas Jee?

THE PRETENDERS WOULD BE HEART BROKEN AT THESE QUOTES ABOUT THEIR AVATARS KRISHNA AND RAMA.

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ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang 98

Now some have done arth of this pangtee by translating the world 'Keet' as servant instead of worm. But if you look at Mahan Kosh the word 'Keet' is translated as insect/worm. Also in Sri Japjee Sahib Jee the word 'Keet' is also used as insect/worm.

keettaa a(n)dhar keett kar dhosee dhos dhharae ||

Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee - Ang 2

sun galaa aakaas kee keettaa aaee rees ||

Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee - Ang 7

---------------------------------

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the worms like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

Sri Dasam Granth - Ang 98

If Sri Krishan Bhagvan is in Sachkhand then why would Guru Sahib rather than praise him, use such language for Sri Krishan Bhagvan who is a Pooran Brahmgianni? Can you ever see Guru Sahib using such language for Baba Budha Jee or Bhai Gurdaas Jee?

Thats amazing quote veer from sri dasam granth ji. Now lets do a favor..I don't think its too much to ask for a sikh as sikh is always student and learner..Sikh is not sikh when he stops becoming student and learner. Do every one and including your self an favor..open up notebook ...start making notes

Put 1) put meaning of this shabad - possibly from pandit naryan singh translation from sri dasam granth sahib..not sure if he meant worm or servant but nevertheless, just make a note for both- worm and servant put guru maharaj position held in this shabad.

Now start doing the same thing- search krishan in sri guru granth sahib and rest of sri dasam granth sahib ji put all shabad directly or indirectly related to krishan ..listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh ji katha of sri guru granth sahib ji- start making notes of various different position held towards sargun hari avtar...once your done, put it all together- study it and anyalize it then come up with overall position of krishan in Gurmat..!!

But i doubt you will do that because it takes too much time - youths these day engage in gurmat as if gurmat is some foot ball match rather than discussing gurmat in its totality ..samparda's gyani spend 30 + years for this very reason.!!!. As i mentioned earlier in my other post:

So coming back to this topic.

I totally agree that Sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale maha anand sagar katha of sri guru granth sahib ji katha should be offically declare an reference point in order to learn traditional Sikhi in the panth.

The problem is not with katha of sri guru granth sahib ji but the problem is actual listeners or readers who are trying to interpret gurbani, you have two extremes- protestant thought and sanatan thought propagated by some nihangs of uk (sikh hippy liberals).

Both extremes look at Gurbani not its totality but rather look at shabad, take them out of context to prove their thoughts or silly little flame wars.

I will give an very simple example of how their thought process function for eg- regarding subject of sargun hari avtars- position are held for or against (puran hari avtars- krishan and ram chandar ji).

Here is how their thought process:

Protestant thought: When it comes to puran hari avtars, they only see the glass- half empty (totaly ignore half full)

Snantan Thought (Sikh hippy liberals): When it comes to puran hari avtars, they only see the glass - half full (totally ignore half empty part)

Actual Gurmat thought:

When it comes to puran hari avtars, actual gurmat shows full view of the glass (half empty and half full).

Actual gurmat ways is to go through each shabad in gurbani, bhai gurdas ji varan, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth where it talks about avtars- a) go through uthanka of each shabd b) bhav arth of each shabad c) antriv arth of each shabad and then position held in each shabad. Position held in each shabad for puran hari avtars is different cannot be applied across the board- overall position in Gurmat.

After noting down all- position held in each shabad regarding puran hari avtars, anayalizing them carefully, then scholar can present with all their work with notes- overall position in Gurmat regarding puran hari avtars that our bhagats consider sargun saroop of Vahiguroo himself..!!!!!!!!!

So far, all the gyani samparda, nirmale and taksal upsamparda's, sevapanthis etc have all unanimously agreed - krishan maharaj is in sachkhand and vahiguroo ji came in sargun saroop of krishan and ram chand maharaj for its bhagats (bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji) , so they came in this conclusion after studying each position held in each shabad than after carefully analyzing each position held in various shabad regarding puran hari avtars- affirm an overall position held in Gurmat..

It's not job of sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale or any other mahapursh or teekakar to tell overall position held on various deep theological concept found in Gurmat but rather onus is on students to start making notes and study of them when they listen to gurbani lareevar katha of dhan dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib ji maharaj.

This seeing of full glass in its totality is not limited to complicated topics of avtars and Gurmat, but deep theological concept of sargun and nirgun and its upasana in Gurbani as well.

Personally speaking, i used to quote gurbani a lot to prove traditional gurmat thought in the past and sometimes get in heated debates (my own silliness). But I have stopped quoting from gurbani now in discussion as Gurbani is Agad Bodh very serene and divine to be engaged in debates..now at spare time, i m more inclined towards knowing- guru maharaj position held in each shabad..if position held from one shabad to another shabad are different on same subjects then affirm overall position by making notes and carefully anyalizing each shabad and position held in each shabad on various complicated concepts found in gurbani - sargun and nirgun form of Vahiguroo, sargun and nirgun devotion, shabad, naam and avtars in gurmat, bhagti,bhram gyan, atma-paratma etc.

It's best to discuss these complicated topics through theology as opposed to posting one or two lines from gurbani to prove your point as we may un-intentionly might be doing beadhi of gurbani of taking out of context.

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N30 Singh ji,

What if someone belivies that Satguru is Guru Nanak Dev ji and that access to Sachkhand is only through kirpa of Guru Nanak Dev ji?

Does that make them "protestant". I guess only Samparda school is right and everybody else is wrong?

I disagree with Sampradayak school that Sachkhand is avastha, other religions can reach Sackhand, bhagats/avtars can reach Sachkhand wihtout Satguru Nanak, other religions can reach Sachkhand e.t.c.

However saying the abova I have huge respect for other Sampardas/Jathebandis and the Gursikhs of these groups. I would never label them as RSS, fanatics, e.t.c.

However daas still has the right to question and put forth their own vies on Gurmat. We can disagree but still maintain the pyaar and respect for each other.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਓਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥

(No one has attained Vaheguru without Satguru because Vaheguru has placed himself in Satguru).

The above pankti is very straightforward withouth Satguru noone can attain Parmeshar. Who is Satguru according to Gurbani?

Satguru is none other than Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Just read ang 1390 and how it was Guru Nanak Dev ji that was behind the actions of various avtars of the 4 jugs.

This is my understanding of Gurmat and many other chardi kala, naam abhiyaasi Gurmukhs such as bhai sahib bhai Randhir Singh ji.

Bhai Vir Singh believed that Guru Nanak was above all other avtars and bhagats and wrote a whole book on this subject.

Are they any lesser Gursikhs than those from Nirmaley or other Samparda? Should they be labelled "Protestant?

Many bhagats and avtars have attained salvation through Guru Nanam, bhagats like bhagat Ramanand ji gained salvation only after getting Naam from Guru Nanak.

The above I have gained by reading and studying Gurbani and Gurmat books.

Rabb Rakhe

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I be brief as this topic has been discussed until cows got home-check past archives of sikhsangat...take whatever you will. It's better to define the terms otherwise one may keep playing with semantics:

So Who is Satguru listed in Gurbani? As, Satguru can only give mukhti (rightly so).

For a Sikh ( sikh defined ,according to Sri Akaal Takth Maryada)

True Guru is Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in all tri folds:

1. Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in Nirgun Form.

2. Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in Shabad Guru Form i.e- gyan of shabad form.

3. Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in Sargun saroop (Guru Maharaj divine saroop in any form including with seli topi :), Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji physical saroop).

For bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji whose writing are included in Gurbani - (which followed introvert sikhi or mysticism- didn't belong to sharia layer of any dharam including sikh as they came before sargun saroop of satguru nanak and laid foundation of sikh dharam officially)

True Guru (Satguru)

1. Vahiguroo Ji Nirgun Form (Sure, We can call it - Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar, as long people don't start playing with semantics now to claim supremacy)

2. Bhagat's teacher/murshid and their ishatdev - according vaishanav traditions/sufi mystic tradtions etc, just like we have sargun saroop of baba nanak and sri guru granth sahib ji

They got Gurmantar from their murshid which they did abhyaas and went through all different types of mukhti in stages while they were alive, and at the end while alive- got kaival mukhti by satguru grace (Vahiguroo ji in nirgun form).

Traditonal Gurmat don't beleive in bhagats got gurmat naam (amazing branding name btw you guys should be in marketing) by sargun saroop of satguru nanak retroacively and gave them mukhti as bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji receiving "gurmat naam" and mukhti via sargun saroop of satguru nanak, is no where to found in any of old works of nirmale, taksal upsamaprda, sevapanthi or rehitnamas literature. This branding/marketting of gurmat naam came recently with protestant thought in Sikhi to shove sikhi in a tunnel. But Maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in a tunnel.

All bhagats may have have met sri guru nanak dev nirankar and also may have came back in form of panj pyares or among other bhramgyani mahapursh (although, there is difference of opnion among historians on this) but let just say - they came and met sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar but that does not mean, they came back to get "mukhti" as its shown that they came back to mukhti to claim superamacy of protestant sikhi which protestant sikhs follow- its huge insult to bhagats (found in sri guru granth sahib ji) devotion and dedication towards Vahiguroo -

-devotion shown in sargun bhagti

-devotion shown via naam simran of whatever naam they got from their teachers and did naam abhyas- surat shabad yog

-devotion shown in nirgun bhagti and as result got kaival mukhti.

It is also huge insult to "kabirpanthis", "baba farid followers", "ravidassia panthis" , "bhagat namdev followers" and other bhagats (followers). As it arrogantly shows, that all their- bhagats (be it kabir, farid, ravidas, bhagat namdev) mystic devotion (bhagti, naam simran, gyan) towards One Vahiguroo was not successful until sri guru nanak dev nirankar met them in sargun saroop and gave them "gurmat" naam ( again amazing brand name ) and mukhti.

Sorry I didn't gave any examples from gurbani as there is already full fledge debate/discussion with gurbani examples, on satguru label in sri guru granth sahib ji- Bijla Singh and I had in the past..take whatever you will!!!

Off course, without receiving amrit and naam for a Sikh, there is no mukhti for Sikh. With being said,I find it absoultely insulting and outrageous for anyone to claim that without "Gurmat" (to claim superamcy) naam- Vahiguroo mantar there is no mukhti for non sikh when you see contary in gurbani all bhagats did jaap of whatever mantar they got from their teacher and got mukhti.

But this protestant thought of branding of their "Naam", "naam dridh", offering -access to sachkhand like it was some sachkhand express train- in return for non sikh to convert into Sikh "ism" is not that surprising as, protestant mindset discriminate within gurbani against other guru ghars mantars- such as ongkar- bij mantar, satnaam- paraporbla mantar,mala mantra, maha mantar- ik ongkar and call those who did jaap of them (with sharda and prem) as kachai pilae, dhillaie, manmatiya,bhraminvad, devoid of gurmat etc etc.

So yeah, its not that black and white guys, protestant thought is quite black and white- they want to make sikhi look like another typical abhramic faith (same old crap pandits and mullahs are debating my salvation is higher than yours blah blah now you have protestant sikhs doing the same) maharaj clearly state- best dharam is which meditates on naam of vahiguroo in sukhmani sahib and that gave peace to fanatic pandits and mullahs of that time, but now our protestant sikhs still not satisfied or in peace, they try to shove sikhi into a tunnel but maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in the tunnel in your "ism"...!!!.

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In krishna avtar of Dasam Granth sahib, krishna is shown in very poor light.When he is not able to subdue kharag singh

in battle, krishna uses trickery and deception to sidetrack attention of kharag singh.

Kharag singh catches from hair and throws him on ground but leaves him saying that if i kill you with whom i will fight.

Then in the company of arjuna krishna takes liquor and also visits dancing girls.

This is not from puarans but independent writing of Guru Gobind singh ji in krishna avtar.

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In krishna avtar of Dasam Granth sahib, krishna is shown in very poor light.When he is not able to subdue kharag singh

in battle, krishna uses trickery and deception to sidetrack attention of kharag singh.

Kharag singh catches from hair and throws him on ground but leaves him saying that if i kill you with whom i will fight.

Then in the company of arjuna krishna takes liquor and also visits dancing girls.

This is not from puarans but independent writing of Guru Gobind singh ji in krishna avtar.

once Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji mahapursh were doing katha from Krishan Avtar (Dasam GurDarbar) about his leelas with many of his women friends and one Singh, a student of the university began to laugh and said "ha ha look at what Krishna was upto" and Sant Ji became very angry and gave him extreme punishment .

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