Are We Really A Marshal Community?

[Sherdil]

Auzer ji, Islam was spread by the sword from its very inception. Muhammad led a conquest of Mecca didn't he? When he took it over, he destroyed all of the idols in the Kaaba and turned it into a mosque. This is a repeating theme. Look how many temples, churches and mandirs where destroyed and mosques built upon them. Or atleast converted into mosques.

You yourself have stated in a previous post (I hope you don't go back and edit it now) that had it not been for Muslim empires fighting each other, Islam would have taken over Europe.

Islam was introduced into Asia by invading Arab armies. Then brought into the subcontinent by Persian, Turkish, and Mughal armies.

We Sikhs know the story of how Kashmiri Pundits came to Guru Tegh Bahadur, to ask for his help in saving them from forced mass conversions by the Mughal emperor.

What of the jaziya enacted on non-Muslims? Surely, this caused the poorest people to adopt Islam because they couldn't afford to pay the tax.

What of the hadiths that instruct how to rape captured non-Muslim women, so that you don't get them pregnant and thus decrease their value in the slave market?

What of the offspring of Hindu mothers who were raped by Muslims (I guess they didn't follow the Hadith). These offspring were raised to be Muslim fighters and then sent to the front-lines to die for Islam.

There is a lot more twisted stuff bro. You know the mountains in Afghanistan called Hindu Kush right? You know what

Hindu Kush means? It means "Kills The Hindu" in Persian.

[Auzer]

I respectfully disagree. I believe that Islam and Christianity were spread by the swords. Sufi Saints aren't even considered "Muslim" by the majority Muslim population. I know many muslims and they all mock sufis. Especially Sunnis. Because they believe that singing and music is Haram which is backed by Islamic Ideology. Can you explain more about these Mazars or Mehfils of the great men of Allah?

The truth is brother, Sufism is not accepted by mainstream Islam. It is considered Shirk and Bi'dah. So how can you claim that sufism is what helped "spread islam."

Islam was spread by the sword and now it is spreading due to reproduction (no offense brother but look at statistics)

http://youtu.be/HDn2EKr5G6c

Brother just some clarification. I am in no way degrading your religion or attempting to insult you. I am just trying to present an argument to your claim.

Well very firs thing : Posting "Zakaria" while talking to Muslim is same as posting some "Nazi ideologist" while talking to any Jew.......

Father Zakaria is THE MOST biased source you can come up with....Probably you won't know...just clarifying.... His lies are exposed...He was challenged by an Egyptian Sheikh for a public debate in "Egyptian Arabic" ....the language Zakaria was raised up in....he never replied to challenge..I wonder why ;-) ... He twist Arabic content of Islamic literature and gives the most redundant 'translation' in English to his Western audience...People who are familiar with Arabic finds him offensive! (Even "Christian Arabs" who are normal citizens and not 'anti-Islamic crusaders' ) .... So I'd urge you to improve the quality of your sources.... Zakaria isn't someone to refer to...

Now coming to your question : Sufism is the part of Islam from the very inception. Read up on "Tasawuf" in Islam... People make fun of 'jaali' babas that are too common in sub-continent.... No one disrespects Sufis...but some of their followers to go to extreme and sometime even pray from the sufi saint...which is not right according to some Muslims...So yeah...Sufism is the part of Islam.....some might not adapt this way of Islam..but this doesn't mean that Sufism is some "bidah" .... Grave-worshipping is Bidah..not Sufism.....

Sufism is itself the part of mainstream Islam....

Plus : Singing and Music are disputed matters...Many scholars say they are not allowed...many say they are allowed ...others say that they are allowed but with some conditions... These things aren't explicitly mentioned in Qur'an ...so according to Islamic doctrine..it is upto individuals how they take these things....

And no problem sister...I know you are not insulting my faith but just saying what you believe. I'm not offended at all!

And oh yeah.... I know that Islam is mainly spreading due to high birth-rates...EVERY religion mainly spreads through birth-rates...conversions come in secondary growth ... I have taken some classes in religious studies... I know whats what ... But Islam and Christianity gets the most conversions too...but overall , conversions are insignificant in overall status of big religions etc...

BTW , high birthrates also comes in "positives" of Islam... Islamic Cultures have very strong family structure (compared to the West!) Mashallah...Even in the West...Muslim girls would date , kiss , and even have sex with other 'non-Muslim' boys....but they very , very rarely marry any non-Muslim..which is the good thing...as the offspring would open his eyes under 'Islamic umbrella' and would become a Muslim automatically...As a result...Islam keeps on expanding..while "Christianity" is a "stable" religion for decades now...

So as long as global Islamic Economy can sustain relatively "higher birthrates" , there is no harm in reproducing more...

Muslim population is set to grow by 1.5% for next 20 years...this is absolutely normal! Its not like Muslims are reproducing like rabbits...Muslims are reproducing normally....but materialism in this world has caused some bad things...and one of them is "fall of marriage structure" ..which I'm sure you don't support...

Peace.

[Sherdil]

If Sufis are so respected, then why are their mosques bombed in Pakistan? I had a Paki guy tell me that Sufis are mystics and thus not a part of mainstream Islam.

You guys have like 7 children! I knew a Paki guy who had 12 brothers and sisters. Do you know that it isn't healthy for a woman to have more than 3 kids? It leads to pelvic floor injuries and urinary incontinence.

Not to mention that you guys are putting a major strain on global resources. Having that many kids is just irresponsible. There is no need for it.

[Singh559]

Seems like a clear case of denial and twisting facts to cover shame of the truth.

[Auzer]

If Sufis are so respected, then why are their mosques bombed in Pakistan? I had a Paki guy tell me that Sufis are mystics and thus not a part of mainstream Islam.

You guys have like 7 children! I knew a Paki guy who had 12 brothers and sisters. Do you know that it isn't healthy for a woman to have more than 3 kids? It leads to pelvic floor injuries and urinary incontinence.

Not to mention that you guys are putting a major strain on global resources. Having that many kids is just irresponsible. There is no need for it.

7 kids? lol...in "what generation" bro? Like every community...there was a "baby boomer" generation in Muslims....but today....nobody in hell would even think of having 7 kids.... It is sooo unheard of! Again , you are probably talking about baby-boomer generation... 4 is the HIGHEST number of kids I have seen in my family... My uncle have four kids..thats it! No more than that...

OR only people having 7 kids are those who live in extremeeee poverty....and thats understandable...haven't you seen poor people with lots of kids in India?

What that "guy" told you holds of no importance... Muslims reject "grave-worshipping" ...many guys , like the one you are talking about , don't even know what is Sufism...They think that "grave-worshipping" is sufism...and hence you see "Oh Sufis? nah Islam has no place for it" ... Whole Asia minor practice Sufi-Islam...Turks and some part of central asia too...It is the "part" of Islam... Tasawuf .... But again , in Sub-continent...some people go over the board...and this is what Islam discourages...

And terrorists are bombing sufi-mosques , sunni mosques , shia mosques , Ahmedi mosques and so on...so does that prove that even "Sunnis" aren't Muslims since terrorists are bombing them? lol...

How come hundreds of millions of Turks , Asia minor inhabitants , central asians etc practice Sufi Islam , if its not Islam? You are mixing subcontinentalism with Islam...

And whats up with "restraining" global resources? These are OUR resources... we don't use your resources so whats the restrain part? lol ......

The size of Global Islamic Economy is ~ $ 10.2 trillion at Purchasing power...and that is..when Islamic Civilization is facing the WORST decline of its history.... so you see the 'potiential'? This $10.2 trillion economy can sustain 1.6 billion people...and that is a pre-industialized economy....imagine when Muslim world will go industrialized in coming decades Inshallah...this number will sky-rocket!!! So Muslims have more than enough resources

Seems like a clear case of denial and twisting facts to cover shame of the truth.

Point out what 'facts' are being twisted or just accept that you are not well-read to engage the topic. Making such sweeping statements won't help anybody...

There is no "shame of truth" for Muslims , buddy. There is none. I'm WAY MORE well-read than you can ever guess...so kindly , lets engage me in a discussion and correct me...Don't just make statements like "Oh twisting facts...you are wrong..I'm out!" etc...Tell me what facts are being twisted?

[Singh559]

When I get on a keyboard I'll make a reply Mr. Well Read Ji.

[panther]

The size of Global Islamic Economy is ~ $ 10.2 trillion at Purchasing power...and that is..when Islamic Civilization is facing the WORST decline of its history.... so you see the 'potiential'? This $10.2 trillion economy can sustain 1.6 billion people...and that is a pre-industialized economy....imagine when Muslim world will go industrialized in coming decades Inshallah...this number will sky-rocket!!! So Muslims have more than enough resources

There is no "shame of truth" for Muslims , buddy.

Haha now we're getting somewhere with u Auzer. So the reason for your little trip to sikhsangat was to do your little bit for the great Islamic Civilisation's takeover of the whole world LoL. U claim that there is no "shame of truth" but u are scared to debate quotes from the Quran! LoL

Muslim Slavery and Islamic Sex Slavery

Question:

Does Islam condone slavery?

Does Islamic teaching allow Muslim men to keep women as sex slaves?

Answer:

Islam neither ignores nor condemns slavery for the Holy Qur'an explicty upholds Slavery.

In fact, a large part of the Muslim Sharia Law is dedicated to the practice of Slavery.

Muslims are encouraged to live in the way of Prophet Muhammad, who was famously an active slave owner and slavetrader. He bravely captured multiple slaves in battle and reaped and raped the profits thereafter. He had sex with his slaves as the Holy Qur'an supports in its divine verses. And he instructed his believers, the Muslims, to do the same. The Holy Qur'an actually devotes more verses to making sure that Muslim men know they can keep women as sex slaves than it does to telling them to pray five times a day.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30).

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."

Qur'an (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.

Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).

Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet Muhammad said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

Bukhari (41.598) - Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Prophet Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Prophet Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Bukhari (34:351) - Prophet Muhammad sells a slave (human being) for money. He was thus a slave trader.

Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Prophet Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Prophet Muhammad. In this case, the slave is of African descent.

Muslim 3901 - Prophet Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Prophet Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.

Bukhari (47:743) - Prophet Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Prophet Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Prophet Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432)

Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Prophet Muhammad looks on in apparent amusement.

Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Prophet Muhammad, who does nothing about it.

Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Prophet Muhammad trades away women captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property. (Their men had been executed after surrendering peacefully without a fight).

Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture. A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

[HKaur16]

Now coming to your question : Sufism is the part of Islam from the very inception. Read up on "Tasawuf" in Islam... People make fun of 'jaali' babas that are too common in sub-continent.... No one disrespects Sufis...but some of their followers to go to extreme and sometime even pray from the sufi saint...which is not right according to some Muslims...So yeah...Sufism is the part of Islam.....some might not adapt this way of Islam..but this doesn't mean that Sufism is some "bidah" .... Grave-worshipping is Bidah..not Sufism.....

Sufism is itself the part of mainstream Islam....

One of the main reasons you believe Sufism is Islam is due to your Pakistani background. I personally believe Sufism is great. My point here is MAJORITY MUSLIMS do not accept Sufism as a part of Islam. Speak to a Pashtun or in fact go to Saudi and ask anyone if they believe Sufism is a part of Islam. I GUARANTEE you that none of them will accept Sufism. So your claim that Islam has gotten so many converts due to Sufism is false. The truth is, Islam WAS spread by the sword and may even be to some extent now. Truth is Christianity and Islam, the two major religions have spread because of Violence and history clearly proves that.

Even Dr. Zakir Naik, one of the most respected scholar in the Muslim community has claimed that Sufism is incorrect.

So how can a sect of Islam that is not accepted by MAJORITY Muslims themselves be the cause for spread of Islam?

[panther]

I have been reporting (Panther) all long...that (because) Muhammad married (Aisha when she was 6 and he was 51) ..he was this..and that...

Well i don't blame u for trying to cover up Prophet Muhammad's age and Aisha's when the marriage was consummated.

But u can't stop people googling the age of Aisha when her marriage with the Prophet was consummated can u?

Suppose some young Muslim lad interested in Sikhi comes on this forum...and all he sees is this.......just imagine the "image" of your religion that would be formed in that lad's mind ....

Pather ji is doing more damage to Sikhi than to Islam.....

ROFLMAO. Pure comedy Auzer. I gotta hand it to u. Pure genius to tug at the heartstrings of the mods by claiming that some poor innocent Muslim young man who wants to turn to Sikhi might see quotes from the Quran and Hadiths and be so shocked by those Muslim sources that Panther somehow damages Sikhi by posting quotes from the Quran. Don't blame me Auzer Ji. Blame the author of the Quran. You know the great Arab Prophet himself.

[Sherdil]

7 kids? lol...in "what generation" bro? Like every community...there was a "baby boomer" generation in Muslims....but today....nobody in hell would even think of having 7 kids.... It is sooo unheard of! Again , you are probably talking about baby-boomer generation... 4 is the HIGHEST number of kids I have seen in my family... My uncle have four kids..thats it! No more than that...

OR only people having 7 kids are those who live in extremeeee poverty....and thats understandable...haven't you seen poor people with lots of kids in India?

What that "guy" told you holds of no importance... Muslims reject "grave-worshipping" ...many guys , like the one you are talking about , don't even know what is Sufism...They think that "grave-worshipping" is sufism...and hence you see "Oh Sufis? nah Islam has no place for it" ... Whole Asia minor practice Sufi-Islam...Turks and some part of central asia too...It is the "part" of Islam... Tasawuf .... But again , in Sub-continent...some people go over the board...and this is what Islam discourages...

And terrorists are bombing sufi-mosques , sunni mosques , shia mosques , Ahmedi mosques and so on...so does that prove that even "Sunnis" aren't Muslims since terrorists are bombing them? lol...

How come hundreds of millions of Turks , Asia minor inhabitants , central asians etc practice Sufi Islam , if its not Islam? You are mixing subcontinentalism with Islam...

And whats up with "restraining" global resources? These are OUR resources... we don't use your resources so whats the restrain part? lol ......

The size of Global Islamic Economy is ~ $ 10.2 trillion at Purchasing power...and that is..when Islamic Civilization is facing the WORST decline of its history.... so you see the 'potiential'? This $10.2 trillion economy can sustain 1.6 billion people...and that is a pre-industialized economy....imagine when Muslim world will go industrialized in coming decades Inshallah...this number will sky-rocket!!! So Muslims have more than enough resources

Point out what 'facts' are being twisted or just accept that you are not well-read to engage the topic. Making such sweeping statements won't help anybody...

There is no "shame of truth" for Muslims , buddy. There is none. I'm WAY MORE well-read than you can ever guess...so kindly , lets engage me in a discussion and correct me...Don't just make statements like "Oh twisting facts...you are wrong..I'm out!" etc...Tell me what facts are being twisted?

Lol...you don't even know what baby boomers are. They are the children of American soldiers returning from WW2. What does this have to do with what we are discussing?

The Pakistanis that told me they have 7 and 12 brothers and sisters were in my class.

I didn't say Sufis aren't Muslims, but a lot of Muslims consider Sufis to be a heretic group. Their numbers are dwindling because they are being persecuted. Don't you read the news bro?

Restraining means to hold back. I didn't say restraining. I said you guys are straining global resources. Straining means to thin-out, so there is less of it available.

You are living in the middle ages if you think population doesn't put a strain on global resouces. Every species has a carrying capicity, which is the max capability of an environment to sustain that species. The earth, as an environment has a finite number of natural resources (like oil, timber, space to grow food), therefore it has a set number of people it can sustain.

Money isn't a resource buddy. Do you even know what it takes to industrialize? It takes natural resources. That's more people needing food, water and electricity. There will be less space to grow that food. Also, more pollution and garbage produced by a higher population.

What do you mean OUR resources? This is the 21st century. We live in a global economy. If we run out of oil because Ahmed and Shazia used it all up for their 12 kids, then that will affect the entire world.

It's not just people in Pakistan. Those guys with 7 and 12 brothers and sisters are living in America. I know it's the same story in Canada and the UK, and every other country with a sizeable Muslim population. It's completely irresponsible and you guys just do it to pad your numbers.