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JSinghnz

Havan Has No Place In Sikhi

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Personally I don't hold Jarnail Singh to be the absolute authority on Sikhi, in fact even well known members of the old school Taksal, Jatha Bhindran do not hold him such high regard. Talk to Bhagat Ji, Bhai Jaswant Singh Ji from Toronto if you disagree with me on that regard.

It is interesting to see that when citing historical granths as references people who do not support the view will contort their own hypothesis of why the writer has written such information, however whenever a favoured Sant says something they do not take the same approach to understand why their favoured preacher is preaching whatever he is preaching.

I suppose one favoured Saint can out weight every single historical book we have to date from the 1700s and 1800s... (see Das Gur Katha, Gurbilas, Gur Sobha, Bansavalinama, Mehima Prakash, Pracheen Panth Prakash - unedited by Dhillion, Naveen Panth Prakash, Suraj Prakash Granth etc just to name a few).

Veerji, You said Giani Inderjit Singh Jee is a student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee fine. Although he may have gotten his vidya from Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee, but his views are not in line with Sant Jee. I was listening to Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee's Chandi di Vaar Katha yesterday and his views match Sant Jarnail Singh Jee's views exactly on the status of Devi. That isn't the only point where Baba Inderjit Singh Jee differs from Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee. For exacmple, Baba Inderjit Singh Jee supports doing Shraads which is condemned in Gurbani. But what is interesting is that even Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee condemns shraads in his vyakhya of those shabads in SGGSJ where Shraads are condemned in Gurbani.

So in conclusion, Baba Inderjit Singh Jee may have been student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale. But it seems he has parted ways with Sant Jee on some matters.

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Personally I don't hold Jarnail Singh to be the absolute authority on Sikhi, in fact even well known members of the old school Taksal, Jatha Bhindran do not hold him such high regard. Talk to Bhagat Ji, Bhai Jaswant Singh Ji from Toronto if you disagree with me on that regard.

Thats upto you Bhaji, but dont be so naive as to assume the jatha of Sant Mohan Singh have anything good to say about Mehta Chowk faction. They do not get on, its as simple as that, the members of the old school didnt like Sant Kartar Singh as well.

Mr "Reality" nowhere in Sri Dasam Granth below does it say anything about Guru Gobind Singh Ji doing a 40day Havan Hindu ritual to the Hindu Goddess at Nainadevi. Guru Gobind Singh Ji doesn't even mention the word Havan!

In the Sikh history i have read, and from the teaching of my Vidiya Guru, the havan sakhi is as such:

There was a brahman who claimed he could make the Devi appear, and so Guru Ji humoured him, and asked the Sikhs to get all the requirements for the havan. The havan went on for some time, and there was no success. The Pandit claimed, when asked, that the Devi will only appear if the sacrifice of a holy man is made. Guru Ji said that there is non holier than you Pandit jI. On hearing this, the Pandit said he needed to have ishnaan first, but then legged it at the first opportunity. Guru Ji knew that the Brahman had run away and he said to the Sikhs to throw all the samagari onto the fire. The fire then burned greatly, and Guru Ji standing in front of the fire facing the Sikhs, withdrew his sword, and said this is the Goddess. This is Shakti.

If you read into the history of Dusht Daman, when he helped Chandi in her battles, she gave him a boon that in Kalyug, she will take the form of a sword. This is the Chandi that Guru Ji showed. Not the 8 armed Goddess. The Goddess had already said she would take the roop of a sword, why would Guru Ji be expecting the 8 armed Goddess to appear?

This is one thing that many people get confused over. What is Chandi? What roop did she take in Sat? What roop is she in Kal?

and mr reality said:

Chandi Pargat Hona - Katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji (mr reality's site)

Throughout Sikh historical texts there is mention of the Guru Gobind Singh ji visiting the mountain Nainadevi and having Chandi Maa appear after months of a Havan [worship with fire]. This topic is a key issue to understand because it puts into context passages within Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji along with Puratan Khalsa traditions which seem out of place in the contemporary Sikh mindset.

But a disregarded context is whether Guru Ji performed the havan as per hindu rituals, or whether he discarded the hindu ritual. I personally think he discarded the hindu ritual but went through the pretence to show the SIkhs that havans cannot produce anything, and dont rely on Brahmans and their havans, as they have no place in Kalyug.

Guru Ji was already armed with Chandi's promise that she will assist him by taking the roop of a sword in Kalyug. So Guru Ji already knew this, why would he need to perform a havan just to with draw his sword? Simple, there is no merit in Kalyug to perform Havan.

Along the same lines of Guru Nanak Dev Ji visiting mecca. Why did Guru Ji go? to perform hajj or give ruhani updesh? Ask a muslim, and they willsay Guru Ji went on hajj. Ask a Sikh and....

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why would guru gobind singh ji need help from a devi when he has waheguru? .....(just me thinking)

what is your understanding of "a devi"?

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what is your understanding of "a devi"?

Even though the question was not addressed to me but my understanding of Devi is the same as the the views expressed by Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwalay in their Katha. What's your understanding Chatanga jee?

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A shastar is only good as its master. No devi changed form into a Kirpan to give to Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj. A shastar in the hands of an unskilled person will earn no virtues and just cause destruction because the power behind the unskilled person is anger. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj has Akal shakti and didn't recieve no devi shakti in the form of a sword. Devi shakti is full of maya and the 5 vices because the devi is subject to kaal. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj did not finalize the Khalsa Panth with maya and the 5 vices. Satguru finalized Khalsa Panth with Akal and thats why the Khalsa is referred to as the immortal Panth.

In any age havan was not accepted by Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. These people are very ignorant. They call Satguru the Eternal Guru, but then make remarks like havan is not accepted in Kalyug. No Mr. Lost Gurbani is beyond time and speaks about all ages when Gurbani says Havans are not accepted. Honestly these individuals have not even contemplated over Sri Mool Mantar Sahib for one second. Gurbani is True in the beginning, true throughout the ages, true here and now, and forever true. But these individuals like to make the excuse............no those lines are refering to Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Mr. Smart don't you understand that Shabad Guru and Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj are one and the same. They can't grasp these very simple concepts, yet they want to be accepted as authority on Sikhi.

These individuals are influenced by their Hindu teachings of the vedas which accept havan. Gurbani rejects it, but these individuals need to please their Hindu brothers so they use a politically correct angle and go against Gurbani.

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Slightly a bit off topic with the Havan thing but can anybody educated explain the meaning of the following lines Guru Gobind Singh Ji has written in Sri Dasam Granth. I understand that Chandi Maa, and Durga Maa and Kali Mata are all inter-connected in the Holy Goddess Kalika but can someone explain these two lines of Sri Bachittar Natak so i get them. And was Guru Sahib writing his mother = the Goddess Kalika when he was Dusht Daman? Thanks

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਨਮ ਪੂਰਬਲੇ ਹੇਰੇ ॥ ਕਹਿਹੋ ਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਾਕ੍ਰਮ ਤੇਰੇ ॥੪॥

जो जो जनम पूरबले हेरे ॥ कहिहो सु प्रभु पराक्रम तेरे ॥४॥

All the past lives that have peeped into, I shall speak about them with Thy Power.4.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

सरब काल है पिता अपारा ॥ देबि कालिका मात हमारा ॥

He, my Lord is Father and Destroyer of all, the goddess Kalika is my mother.

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I agree with chatanga, johnny and only five.

Btw I have heard that account you have chatanga

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Educated veers i also kinda half-buy chatanga veer's explanation about the crooked Pandit that ran off but I don't understand the way Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote the lines below that made mr reality start believing in doing these Hindu havans over at the Hindu Nainadevi site

from Sri Sarbloh Granth (Page: 81 Chapter 1, Vol. I, Sarbloh Granth)

ਤੀਰਥ, ਬਰਤ, ਨੇਮ, ਸੁਚਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ, ਸੀਲ, ਸੰਤੋਖ, ਆਚਾਰੋ ॥

[Make] Pilgrimages, desireless worship, the Name, truthful actions, restraint, contentment your nature.

ਇਸ਼੍ਟ, ਦੇਵ, ਰਿਖੀ, ਪਿਤ੍ਰ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ, ਗਉ, ਅਭ੍ਯਾਗਤਿ ਮਾਨੋ ॥

Recognize [respect] your Beloved, God, Sages, your Father,the Brahman, the Cow, and those who have their face to the Guru

ਪੂਜਾ, ਤਿਲਕ, ਹੋਮ, ਗਾਯਤ੍ਰੀ, ਸੰਧ੍ਯਾ, ਤਰਪਨ ਧਾਰੋ ॥

Conduct worship, [adorn a] Tilak, [conduct] Havans, [recite] Gayatri [mantras], worship at the prescribed times, instill these virtues [in your heart].

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This is the reason why these 21st century RSS-backed fake Nihangs that do Hindu havans hate Sant Jarnail Singh

When I first met Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, he was already cast in his role of both hero and villain. He was as prominent as Sant Harcharan Singh Longowal, head of the Akali Dal. The two sants, Bhindranwale, haughty and violent; Longowal, meek and dignified, were a study in contrast.

Once I caught up with Bhindranwale in his very untidy room and I asked him why he was surrounded by so many armed men toting rifles and Sten guns. His reply, in rustic Punjabi, was to ask why the police carried arms. I told him that the police represented authority; to which he retorted, "Let them ever challenge me, and I shall show them who has the authority."

This was typical of the man. He believed himself to be above the law of the land; an individual who had been chosen by God for a mission. His ambition was to wield so much power that all the police and all the troops in India would not dare challenge him. That was his tragedy. While I was with Bhindranwale, central minister Swaran Singh barged in. As I was sitting on the only chair in the room, he squatted on the floor. Before I could offer him the chair, he remarked that he preferred to sit on the floor in the presence of the Sant.

beyond_150_070812050925.jpg

Beyond the lines: An autobiography book extracts Kuldip Nayar; Roli Books; Rs.595.

Bhindranwale did not own up responsibility for the assassination of Lala Jagat Narain, owner of Punjab Kesri and Hind Samachar, who was killed in broad daylight outside Ludhiana. He did not even express any regret over the murder; instead, he described Jagat Narain as "a person who had abused the Sikh qaum".

My friend Romesh Chander, Jagat Narain's son and editor of the two papers, was also murdered by Bhindranwale's supporters. I felt the tragedy all the more acutely because a day before Romesh returned to Jalandhar on an urgent mission, he had promised to go to see a film with me.

Bhindranwale's emergence on the political landscape of Punjab can be traced back to 1977 when the Akali Dal-Janata Party government came to power after defeating the Congress in the Assembly elections. Zail Singh, the defeated chief minister who later became President of India, was most unhappy, not only because he had lost power, but also because the Gurdial Singh Commission appointed to look into his conduct as chief minister, had found him guilty of misuse of power.

It was Sanjay Gandhi, known for his extra-constitutional methods, who suggested that some 'Sant' should be put up to challenge the Akali government. Both Sanjay and Zail Singh, particularly the latter, knew how the former Punjab chief minister Pratap Singh Kairon had fought the Akalis. He had built up Sant Fateh Singh against Master Tara Singh, the Akali leader, who had become a hard nut to crack. Zail Singh and Darbara Singh, who was a Congress Working Committee member and later became chief minister, selected two persons for Sanjay's evaluation.

As Sanjay's friend, Kamal Nath, recalled: "The first one we interviewed did not look a 'courageous type'. Bhindranwale, strong in tone and tenor, seemed to fit the bill. We would give him money off and on, but we never thought he would turn into a terrorist." Little did they realise at that time that they were creating a Frankenstein.

Zail Singh too maintained contacts with Bhindranwale, although he denied this after he became President. Bhindranwale got his first opportunity to get into the limelight on April 13, 1978, Baisakhi day, when a band of Sikhs clashed with Nirankaris who called themselves 'Sikh' but were not considered to be so by the community. They were like the Ahmedis who are not considered to be 'Muslim', although they follow the tenets of Islam.

Sixteen Sikhs died in the clash on that Baisakhi day. Bhindranwale said that the killing of Sikhs when an Akali was the state chief minister was outrageous. There was indeed anger in the community throughout the country. Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal was in Mumbai at the time of the incident.

He rushed to Amritsar, suspended some police officers, and arrested the Nirankari chief, Gurbachan Singh. This did not however mollify the Sikh community, nor did his call for a boycott of the Nirankaris assuage its feelings.

To add to the woes of the Akalis, on the day of the clash, Zail Singh had blessed the foundation of the Dal Khalsa to needle the Akalis, and his supporters paid the bill. The inaugural function of the organisation pledged in a resolution "to preserve and keep alive the concept of the distinct and independent identity of the Sikh Panth." The political goal spelt out was "the pre-eminence of the Khalsa". The important part of the resolution was that "in Punjab and other states the Centre's interference would be restricted to defence, foreign relations, currency, and general communications," and for these departments, "Punjab and other states [should] contribute [to central funds] in proportion to [their] representation in Parliament." This eventually took the form of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution, which New Delhi interpreted as a demand for secession.

The Akali leaders were on the defensive about the resolution. Whenever I discussed it with them they would say there were many versions of it. One of them said that it was Kapur Singh, a former Indian Civil Service (ICS) officer, dismissed from service, who had drafted the resolution. It was in English, which Fateh Singh, the then Akali president, did not understand. The resolution was only "explained" to him by Kapur Singh, and Fateh Singh reportedly never realised all that was being incorporated in it.

Perhaps Fateh Singh did not understand the implications but the drafting committee had men like Balwant Singh, former Punjab finance minister, Surjit Singh Barnala, former Union minister for agriculture, and Gurcharan Singh Tohra, president of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC), as its members. They could have stalled the resolution or watered it down, but there was nothing surprising about this development because whenever the Akali Dal was in the wilderness, the party adopted a militant stance. The resolution therefore fitted in with and reflected its politics.

It was apparent that Indira Gandhi and the Akalis were on a collision course. The moderates among the Sikhs were in a minority. People such as Parkash Singh Badal, Balwant Singh and S.S. Barnala were not part of the meeting convened by Bhindranwale to consider the future course of action. Punjab education minister Sukhjinder Singh, who had stated that the Sikhs should establish Khalistan with the assistance of China and Pakistan, attended the meeting, as did Gurcharan Singh Tohra, who had brought along with him Basant Singh Khalsa, who after losing in the Lok Sabha elections had said that the Sikhs should have a separate electorate.

The prime minister could not accept the Akali demand for a separate territorial entity for the Sikhs. Longowal was in two minds. The extremists played on his feeling of betrayal, arguing that Indira Gandhi had gone back on her commitment even on religious demands. To placate the moderates, Longowal nominated Badal to be the first to court arrest in a morcha to win a separate state for the Sikhs.

What however clinched the matter was the fear in the minds of the Akalis that Bhindranwale, who had made the Golden Temple the base for his activities, might eventually take over the gurudwara if the Akalis did not show any resistance. More than that, morchas, as the Akalis knew by experience, always became a matter of prestige for the Sikhs and received traditional support from the countryside, with volunteers numbering in the thousands.

The Golden Temple automatically became the fulcrum of any such demonstration. The morcha began on August 4, 1982. Badal was the first satyagrahi, leading a batch of 300, all of whom were arrested when they emerged from the temple for violating the order banning the assembly of more than five persons. This became a daily affair over the next two and half months, and was all very civilised.

The moderate among the Sikhs were still in control. Longowal did not fail to chide anyone raising demands other than those that the Akalis had made. The day I attended one of these congregations, when a slogan was raised for Khalistan, Longowal not only condemned it but also said that those who raised the slogan were "agents of the Congress Party" and that the Akalis were strongly opposed to it. Till then he was in control. Bhindranwale, who was sitting beside him, did not utter a word.

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