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Havan Has No Place In Sikhi

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All being said, and as someone who doesn't believe that havans/homs have a role in Sikh spirituality, talking from a purely historical perspective, it's interesting to note that Rattan Singh Bhangu in his famous Panth Prakash mentions a hom done by Sikhs on the eve of a battle with Abdali Shah, where a ox was beheaded and offered up.

Yet again we come too a point where past practices (of at least some Sikhs) jar with current norms. In this case I'd say the diminishing role of these types of rituals in everyday Sikhs lives is no big 'loss' but to say no Sikhs in the past did such things is plainly inaccurate, as much as thinking along the lines of 'if was okay in the past, it should be okay today'. Just because some people practiced certain things in the past, it doesn't always mean we should do every last one of these things too. Plus brothers/sisters also need to acknowledge that some things may have gone on in the past that are considered unacceptable today for whatever reason/s- without getting their knickers in a twist.

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All being said, and as someone who doesn't believe that havans/homs have a role in Sikh spirituality, talking from a purely historical perspective, it's interesting to note that Rattan Singh Bhangu in his famous Panth Prakash mentions a hom done by Sikhs on the eve of a battle with Abdali Shah, where a ox was beheaded and offered up.

Yet again we come too a point where past practices (of at least some Sikhs) jar with current norms. In this case I'd say the diminishing role of these types of rituals in everyday Sikhs lives is no big 'loss' but to say no Sikhs in the past did such things is plainly inaccurate, as much as thinking along the lines of 'if was okay in the past, it should be okay today'. Just because some people practiced certain things in the past, it doesn't always mean we should do every last one of these things too. Plus brothers/sisters also need to acknowledge that some things may have gone on in the past that are considered unacceptable today for whatever reason/s- without getting their knickers in a twist.

Dal Singh Jee, one must not discard the fact that Panth Parkash was written 2 to 3 generations after the said events. Some details may have been added after. For example, Panth Parkash also mentions that the first thing that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee did in the morning was to drink Bhang. But according to Rehenamas dating from that time it is mentioned that a Sikh who eats or drinks without bathing and Nitnem is a Tankhaya. Rattan Singh Bhangu lived during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. During that time, Sikhs were performing many Hindu rituals, openly consumed alcohol and Bhang. So it is not out of the mark to say that Panth Parkash may hold some inaccuracies and may have been influanced by life and mannerisms during the times the author was living in. That being said, Rattan Singh Bhangu's work is a primary source of Sikh history where we get many stories of puraatan Singhs and one must study it but with a grain of salt at the same time.

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Dal Singh Jee, one must not discard the fact that Panth Parkash was written 2 to 3 generations after the said events. Some details may have been added after. For example, Panth Parkash also mentions that the first thing that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee did in the morning was to drink Bhang. But according to Rehenamas dating from that time it is mentioned that a Sikh who eats or drinks without bathing and Nitnem is a Tankhaya. Rattan Singh Bhangu lived during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. During that time, Sikhs were performing many Hindu rituals, openly consumed alcohol and Bhang. So it is not out of the mark to say that Panth Parkash may hold some inaccuracies and may have been influanced by life and mannerisms during the times the author was living in. That being said, Rattan Singh Bhangu's work is a primary source of Sikh history where we get many stories of puraatan Singhs and one must study it but with a grain of salt at the same time.

Brother, I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said. At the same time we should also be careful not to hammer the contents of a wonderful text like Panth Prakash, into a shape that is acceptable to today's standards. We are very lucky to have it. It's unique as a Sikh portrayal of 18th century history and even more so because of the author's family involvement in these events.

Whilst your point about the text possibly conveying the norms of Bhangu's own time is perfectly relevant and important, we shouldn't dismiss the fact that it may also contain genuine truths about practices now deemed unacceptable or now unSikhlike. I perfectly understand why people would be uncomfortable with this, because human tendencies (my own too sometimes!) seem to seek justification for certain behavior we could maybe label 'lax', and texts like these can be used by such people to justify drug taking, havans, etc. etc. today.

I pose the question (I did it before at the end of the piece I posted with a translation of a section of Ganda Singh's intro to Sainapati's Gursobha) - just what do we do every time we encounter references to practices that are not customary or acceptable to Sikhs today? Are we going to go through a cycle of outright denial every time and excuse it as a misapprehension, interpolation or outright mischief? Or will we occasionally put our hands up and say that maybe mindsets/understandings may have been slightly different in the past and in this context things we would consider surprising today may, just may have occurred?

Anyway, I don't to start any rows, regulars will know I do love a bit of history and Sikh historiography is a subject I find more than a little fascinating, I'm just sharing some of the thoughts that arise from pursuing these interests. And I in no way want to contribute to any sort of 'erosion' of Sikh values today.

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"Why do u not refer to Mata Sahib Kaur correctly?" - Correctly in what sense, politically correctly in today's times? Or the traditional correct name that we find in old historical books? Today amongest the Nihung Singhs we still find the name 'Mata Sahib Devan' being said. In Nanded there is a Gurdwara named after Her named, "Mata Sahib Devan Gurdwara".

All of Mata Sahib Devan's hukumnamas are signed as such even upto 30 years after the creation of Guru Khalsa Panth. This should be telling you something.

Maybe the best way to get these blasphemous photo's removed is by talking with the veer + asking him exactly why feels there needed and maybe @sikhrealiyt veer could start by explaining

What is blasphemous is that Sikhs do pooja of "Guru Nanaks painting" as if it will bring them something. No-one knows what the Guru's looked like, so essentially it is some the figment of someone's imagination of what they looked like.

SikhReality you have done amazing seva for the panth..and have stood firm to puraatan maryada/puraatan understanding of sikhi....all your views are in line with sri aad guru granth, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth , puraatan rehitname/hukamnamas, puraatann itihaasik granths and oral traditions of the dal panth...some might not appreciate your blog but i certainly do..thanks

and so do I. Its this higher learning, this Nirmal Tat Gyaan, that has become so hidden from Guru Khalsa Panth, that we have these debates on forums daily.

I dont want you to apologise to any pretenders who have no relation to Sikhi.

Just refer them to the basic definition of a Sikh.

http://sgpc.net/reha...ction_four.html

Its amazing how people run to the SGPC for a definition of what a Sikh should be, I would rather look to the times of 10th Guru and a century later to see what a Sikh should be.

Dal Singh Jee, one must not discard the fact that Panth Parkash was written 2 to 3 generations after the said events.

It was, you are right with many things based on oral tradition. But it was 2 or 3 generations later, how many generations later did the SGPC version of Sikhi come into being?

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It was, you are right with many things based on oral tradition. But it was 2 or 3 generations later, how many generations later did the SGPC version of Sikhi come into being?

LOL what? How did we get from discussing Bhangu and Havans to now SGPC?

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SikhReality you have done amazing seva for the panth..and have stood firm to puraatan maryada/puraatan understanding of sikhi....all your views are in line with sri aad guru granth, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth , puraatan rehitname/hukamnamas, puraatann itihaasik granths and oral traditions of the dal panth...some might not appreciate your blog but i certainly do..thanks

LOL what? How did we get from discussing Bhangu and Havans to now SGPC?

Jonny veer your answer is above i think regarding sikhreality's site http://www.manglacha...20Guru%20Granth

According to sikhreality and KhalistaniGunman it's cool to say Guru Sahib did havan to pray to Chandi Maa because they try to justify it in a warped way from Sri Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth when 559Singh proved them wrong

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Jonny veer your answer is above i think regarding sikhreality's site http://www.manglacha...20Guru%20Granth

According to sikhreality and KhalistaniGunman it's cool to say Guru Sahib did havan to pray to Chandi Maa because they try to justify it in a warped way from Sri Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth when 559Singh proved them wrong

when did i write guruji prayed to chandi? this is the problem with you..just because you cant stand our viewpoints..you will begin to twist and manipulate what we say/write....

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Panther, I haven't proved anything, was just trying to have a discussion as from my knowledge I felt havan has no place in Sikhi as do many other Sikhs. No need to get riled up over it.

All being said, and as someone who doesn't believe that havans/homs have a role in Sikh spirituality, talking from a purely historical perspective, it's interesting to note that Rattan Singh Bhangu in his famous Panth Prakash mentions a hom done by Sikhs on the eve of a battle with Abdali Shah, where a ox was beheaded and offered up.

Yet again we come too a point where past practices (of at least some Sikhs) jar with current norms. In this case I'd say the diminishing role of these types of rituals in everyday Sikhs lives is no big 'loss' but to say no Sikhs in the past did such things is plainly inaccurate, as much as thinking along the lines of 'if was okay in the past, it should be okay today'. Just because some people practiced certain things in the past, it doesn't always mean we should do every last one of these things too. Plus brothers/sisters also need to acknowledge that some things may have gone on in the past that are considered unacceptable today for whatever reason/s- without getting their knickers in a twist.

Well said, I haven't read Panth Prakash. Is it only in Gurmukhi or is there an English translation as well? I've heard many people reference the Panth Prakash though.

In the other thread I posted what little I got from the katha by Baba Inderjit Singh Ji:

http://www.sikhsanga...of-guru-sahibs/

I didn't find anything that justified havan according to Gurmat.

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4. Why does he promote the picture where our Guru Sahibs are lower than Devi? in Sri Dasam Granth?

http://www.manglacharan.com/2010/05/praise-of-devi-passage-from-dasam.html That is the photo you are talking about. That photo was just put up just to illustrate the importance the Devi received in the community 200 years ago. This Granth is dated as early 1800th century, and I took that photo of the Granth myself. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji refers to the Devi as his mother, ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ - http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=174&english=t&id=70043

5. Does he believe in arti in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth together?

Aarti was performed traditionally in front of both Adi and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib, this can be seen by Nihungs and Nirmalay, both groups which go back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There is ample evidence from historical granths describing this practice.

7. What is his proof that Sri Dasam Granth says that Guru Gobind Singh Ji does Havan like the Nainadevi one?

Proof is there above in that Dasam quote that Maharaj respected/worshipped Devi Maa (Adi Shakti). Look in every historical book from the 1700s and 1800s and there is mention of the Havan at Nainadevi.

As to whether havans are Gurmat, someone already mentioned that it is mentioned in Bhangus Pracheen Panth Prakash. Check other granths as well and you shall find it being mentioned as well. Read this passage from Sarbloh Granth, which clearly advocates for Havan [Hom]. However, one is to remember that there are many different types of havans. Ones done for battlefield purposes, like in Panth Praksah, where an animal is sacrificed to the Devi Chandi for protection on the battlefield. Other times it can be in the form of langar, where food is prepared for the Singhs or the needy. The latter explanation was given to me by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji when asking him about this passage in Sarbloh Granth.

Please read:

http://www.manglacharan.com/2010/09/updesh-teaching-to-khalsa-sarbloh.html

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Thanks for the reply.

So we are on a general consensus that havan has historically taken place, but it doesn't necessarily have a spiritual significance.

I find a few things that contradict Gurmat philosophy and teachings of Sikhi here:

ਤੀਰਥ, ਬਰਤ, ਨੇਮ, ਸੁਚਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ, ਸੀਲ, ਸੰਤੋਖ, ਆਚਾਰੋ ॥

[Make] Pilgrimages, desireless worship, the Name, truthful actions, restraint, contentment your nature.

ਇਸ਼੍ਟ, ਦੇਵ, ਰਿਖੀ, ਪਿਤ੍ਰ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ, ਗਉ, ਅਭ੍ਯਾਗਤਿ ਮਾਨੋ ॥

Recognize [respect] your Beloved, God, Sages, your Father,the Brahman, the Cow, and those who have their face to the Guru

qIrQ vrq suic sMjmu nwhI krmu Drmu nhI pUjw ]

theerathh varath such sa(n)jam naahee karam dhharam nehee poojaa ||

Pilgrimages, fasts, purification and self-discipline are of no use, nor are rituals, religious ceremonies or empty worship.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Siree Raag

75

~~~~~~~

hom jg qIrQ kIey ibic haumY bDy ibkwr ]

hom jag theerathh keeeae bich houmai badhhaebikaar ||

You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji

Raag Gauree

214

~~~~~~~

koit jau qIrQ krY qnu jau ihvwly gwrY rwm nwm sir qaU n pUjY ]2]

kott jo theerathh karai than jo hivaalae gaarai raam naam sar thoo n poojai ||2||

he may make millions of pilgrimages to sacred shrines, or freeze his body in the Himalayas; still, none of these is equal to the worship of the Lord's Name. ||2||

Bhagat Naam Dev Ji

Raag Raamkalee

973

~~~~~~~

ByKu BvnI hTu n jwnw nwnkw scu gih rhy ]1] bhaekh bhavanee hat(h) n jaanaa naanakaa sach gehi rehae ||1||

I know nothing about religious robes, pilgrimages or stubborn fanaticism; O Nanak, I hold tight to the Truth. ||1||

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Bilaaval on Pannaa 843

~~~~~~

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Bhairao on Pannaa 1136

BYrau mhlw 5 ]

vrq n rhau n mh rmdwnw ]

iqsu syvI jo rKY indwnw ]1]

eyku gusweI Alhu myrw ]

ihMdU qurk duhW nybyrw ]1] rhwau ]

hj kwbY jwau n qIrQ pUjw ]

eyko syvI Avru n dUjw ]2]

pUjw krau n invwj gujwrau ]

eyk inrMkwr ly irdY nmskwrau ]3]

nw hm ihMdU n muslmwn ]

Alh rwm ky ipMfu prwn ]4]

khu kbIr iehu kIAw vKwnw ]

gur pIr imil Kuid Ksmu pCwnw ]5]3]

bhairo mehalaa 5 ||

varath n reho n meh ramadhaanaa ||

this saevee jo rakhai nidhaanaa ||1||

eaek gusaaee alahu maeraa ||

hi(n)dhoo thurak dhuhaa(n) naebaeraa ||1|| rehaao ||

haj kaabai jaao n theerathh poojaa ||

eaeko saevee avar n dhoojaa ||2||

poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro ||

eaek nira(n)kaar lae ridhai namasakaaro ||3||

naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan ||

aleh raam kae pi(n)dd paraan ||4||

kahu kabeer eihu keeaa vakhaanaa ||

gur peer mil khudh khasam pashhaanaa ||5||3||

Bhairao, Fifth Mehla:

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.

I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||

The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.

I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||

I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

Says Kabeer, this is what I say:

meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master. ||5||3||

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Jap on Pannaa 4

qIrQu qpu dieAw dqu dwnu ]

jy ko pwvY iql kw mwnu ]

suixAw mMinAw min kIqw Bwau ]

AMqrgiq qIriQ mil nwau ]

siB gux qyry mY nwhI koie ]

ivxu gux kIqy Bgiq n hoie ]

suAsiq AwiQ bwxI brmwau ]

siq suhwxu sdw min cwau ]

kvxu su vylw vKqu kvxu kvx iQiq kvxu vwru ]

kvix is ruqI mwhu kvxu ijqu hoAw Awkwru ]

vyl n pweIAw pMfqI ij hovY lyKu purwxu ]

vKqu n pwieE kwdIAw ij ilKin lyKu kurwxu ]

iQiq vwru nw jogI jwxY ruiq mwhu nw koeI ]

jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ]

ikv kir AwKw ikv swlwhI ikau vrnI ikv jwxw ]

nwnk AwKix sBu ko AwKY iek dU ieku isAwxw ]

vfw swihbu vfI nweI kIqw jw kw hovY ]

nwnk jy ko AwpO jwxY AgY gieAw n sohY ]21]

theerathh thap dhaeiaa dhath dhaan ||

jae ko paavai thil kaa maan ||

suniaa ma(n)niaa man keethaa bhaao ||

a(n)tharagath theerathh mal naao ||

sabh gun thaerae mai naahee koe ||

vin gun keethae bhagath n hoe ||

suasath aathh baanee baramaao ||

sath suhaan sadhaa man chaao ||

kavan s vaelaa vakhath kavan kavan thhith kavan vaar ||

kavan s ruthee maahu kavan jith hoaa aakaar ||

vael n paaeeaa pa(n)ddathee j hovai laekh puraan ||

vakhath n paaeiou kaadheeaa j likhan laekh kuraan ||

thhith vaar naa jogee jaanai ruth maahu naa koee ||

jaa karathaa sirat(h)ee ko saajae aapae jaanai soee ||

kiv kar aakhaa kiv saalaahee kio varanee kiv jaanaa ||

naanak aakhan sabh ko aakhai eik dhoo eik siaanaa ||

vaddaa saahib vaddee naaee keethaa jaa kaa hovai ||

naanak jae ko aapa jaanai agai gaeiaa n sohai ||21||

Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity

these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.

Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,

cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.

All virtues are Yours, Lord, I have none at all.

Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.

I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.

He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.

What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||

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http://www.manglacha...from-dasam.html That is the photo you are talking about. That photo was just put up just to illustrate the importance the Devi received in the community 200 years ago. This Granth is dated as early 1800th century, and I took that photo of the Granth myself. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji refers to the Devi as his mother, ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ - http://www.sridasam....lish=t&id=70043

Aarti was performed traditionally in front of both Adi and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib, this can be seen by Nihungs and Nirmalay, both groups which go back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There is ample evidence from historical granths describing this practice.

Proof is there above in that Dasam quote that Maharaj respected/worshipped Devi Maa (Adi Shakti). Look in every historical book from the 1700s and 1800s and there is mention of the Havan at Nainadevi.

As to whether havans are Gurmat, someone already mentioned that it is mentioned in Bhangus Pracheen Panth Prakash. Check other granths as well and you shall find it being mentioned as well. Read this passage from Sarbloh Granth, which clearly advocates for Havan [Hom]. However, one is to remember that there are many different types of havans. Ones done for battlefield purposes, like in Panth Praksah, where an animal is sacrificed to the Devi Chandi for protection on the battlefield. Other times it can be in the form of langar, where food is prepared for the Singhs or the needy. The latter explanation was given to me by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji when asking him about this passage in Sarbloh Granth.

Please read:

http://www.manglacha...sa-sarbloh.html

THANKS FOR SHOWING YOUR REAL DEVI WORSHIPING HINDU FACE TO ALL.

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Singh559 no problem. Excuse my late responses, I am currently very busy.

One thing to understand when reading Gurbani is not to look at it from just a few lines. If one is blind, and tries to describe what an elephant is but has only touched its trunk, one would only describe an elephant as only having a trunk. Some wisdom that Mahapursh have gave to me is to look at everything at a whole.

The thing about performing sargun pooja is that it has its place within Sikhi but is not the last and final goal/stage. By sarjan pooja I mean everything that is done besides nirguna samadhi. If you want me to clarify please let me know. Practises like Tirath, Tap, Daya, Daan, Santhok etc, they are all done in vain firstly if they are done in ego [see Salok Mahala 9]. In regards to the first line you posted that is true as in the end only nirguna samadhi can let you achieve the highest mukthi merging completely with the Infinite. However these practices are like ladders, to help us climb up to be able to achieve nirguna samadhi. There are many quotes from Gurbani which emphasis doing these practices as well. I have posted one from Sarbloh Granth, but there are also lines talking about performing Tirath, Tap, Sanjam, Daan, Santhok, Daya etc from Gurbani. And in the end, vin gun keetay bhagat na hoe. It may appear contradictory but this is the paradox of the philosophy. Things that are grasped (early, lower learning such as sarguna pooja) must be let go, just like the early steps of a ladder. The only thing that remains in the end of Naam, and that is the goal of all practices, and should be done throughout all practices.

A great read regarding this would be Bhavrasamrit or Vivek Pradipika by Tirath Singh Nirmala, both are in english and can be bought here : http://nectpublications.com/products.htm

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I see, i'll say it again, I have a limited scope of experience and views. I'm asking questions and posing arguments for sake of learning. I'd like to believe I'm open minded.

As for havan, can jhatka of a goat be classified as havan? Baba Inderjit Singh Ji talks about his experience going to Takhat Sri Hazur Sahib and someone said "jhatka kadoun karna baba ji" or something along those lines and he said there are blood banks, we can get blood from there and apply tilak to shastar and the Singh replied with a laugh "nahi jii edhan ni hosagda". To cut it short, Baba Ji said the Khalsa isn't maasahaari and doing something just to do it is wrong, I guess if it were to help feed the hungry it would be okay. Is it right to believe there is a fine line in doing these practices and eating meat is wrong just to please the taste buds, doing such things without reason is nothing more than ritualism?

Interesting views and I think a lot of good is coming out of creating this thread and clearing up of misconceptions. I think what we should focus more on instead of getting defensive when devi is mentioned, but instead focus on understanding and openly discussing these things without judgmental attitudes and to aspire to keep many Sikh practices from being turned into mere ritualism.

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Baba Ji does advocate generally for a satoguni vegetarian lifestyle, but understands the historical importance and tradition of Jhatka and the need for Nihung Singhs to do Jhatka. However Babajis belief is that many singhs undertake in this practice without knowing the real purpose or respect because they do not practice the lifestyle of a Nihung, rather they are just doing it to eat meat. They do not train in Shastarvidiya nor do they do Seva for the other Singhs, they do not need the phsyical benefits of meat.

Babaji himself is a great Saint and scholar hence why they follow a satoguni lifestyle.

Singh559 thank you for your patience and understanding, even if we do not share the exact same beliefs we can discuss explain to each other our point of view with mutual respect.

At the moment the owners of Gurmatveechar.com are uploading about 20 gb's of katha of Babaji's from Suraj Prakash Granth. This will take many weeks but the process has begun and you can check weekly for updates.

Gurfateh

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