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Havan Has No Place In Sikhi

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Educated veers i also kinda half-buy chatanga veer's explanation about the crooked Pandit that ran off but I don't understand the way Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote the lines below that made mr reality start believing in doing these Hindu havans over at the Hindu Nainadevi site

from Sri Sarbloh Granth (Page: 81 Chapter 1, Vol. I, Sarbloh Granth)

ਤੀਰਥ, ਬਰਤ, ਨੇਮ, ਸੁਚਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ, ਸੀਲ, ਸੰਤੋਖ, ਆਚਾਰੋ ॥

[Make] Pilgrimages, desireless worship, the Name, truthful actions, restraint, contentment your nature.

ਇਸ਼੍ਟ, ਦੇਵ, ਰਿਖੀ, ਪਿਤ੍ਰ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ, ਗਉ, ਅਭ੍ਯਾਗਤਿ ਮਾਨੋ ॥

Recognize [respect] your Beloved, God, Sages, your Father,the Brahman, the Cow, and those who have their face to the Guru

ਪੂਜਾ, ਤਿਲਕ, ਹੋਮ, ਗਾਯਤ੍ਰੀ, ਸੰਧ੍ਯਾ, ਤਰਪਨ ਧਾਰੋ ॥

Conduct worship, [adorn a] Tilak, [conduct] Havans, [recite] Gayatri [mantras], worship at the prescribed times, instill these virtues [in your heart].

Bro do me a favour and type in a smaller font.

Right, are you looking at these terms through Gurmat eyes or Vedic eyes? Gurbani uses many vedic words but gives them a new meaning for Kalyug.

In the same way that Ram, Damodar etc are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, are different meanings from what you would have had in the yugs before Kalyug.

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What's your understanding Chatanga jee?

Guru Sahib has clarified that the Devi in Kalyug is in the form of the Sword.

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I like to thank everyone in exposing the pretenders who were spreading falsehoods about

Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji.

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It's apparent that you favour Nihangs and that you believe they have maintained the puratan maryada and itihas of Sikhi. But i don't agree with you that there is a consensus of all Nihangs who believe that Guru Jee worshipped Devi at Naina Devi.

Jathedar Baba Tirolk Singh Nihang (Kiale Vale) did katha on Guru gobind Singh Jee and Naina Devi Havan. In which he states that Guru Jee only allowed a Havan to take place to do kandan of the practice of Havan. He states Guru Jee was told by the Brahmins that he needed to seek blessing from Devi before starting a big task ie Kande Batte Da Amrit. To which Guru Jee agree to do a Havan on the pretext that the Devi would present herself infront of him on the 40th Day. Well on the 40th day there was no Devi to be seen in sight (as expected by guru Jee) and Guru Jee threw all the samagree (ghee etc) into the fire and stood infront of the Havan and pulled out his Sri Sahib and had we need no blessings of as Devi and in times of need he only need to seek the protection of our shasters and no Devi. That this shaster is our Devi alone! Guru Sahib allowed the Havan to take place for one reason...to show this has no place in Gurmat!

This was narrated by a farladhari Jathedar of a Nihang Singh Dal on stage in UK.

'Into The Light', I agree with you that certainly nowadays the Nainadevi Sakhi is not totally accepted amongst Nihangs.

Veerji, You said Giani Inderjit Singh Jee is a student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee fine. Although he may have gotten his vidya from Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee, but his views are not in line with Sant Jee. I was listening to Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee's Chandi di Vaar Katha yesterday and his views match Sant Jarnail Singh Jee's views exactly on the status of Devi. That isn't the only point where Baba Inderjit Singh Jee differs from Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee. For exacmple, Baba Inderjit Singh Jee supports doing Shraads which is condemned in Gurbani. But what is interesting is that even Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee condemns shraads in his vyakhya of those shabads in SGGSJ where Shraads are condemned in Gurbani.

So in conclusion, Baba Inderjit Singh Jee may have been student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale. But it seems he has parted ways with Sant Jee on some matters.

I agree they may have different beliefs on that specific topic. Again, to understand Baba Ji's view point one should listen to the katha on the manglacharan.com website.

Sorry for the late reply, there have been so many posts and I had a hard time responsing. If you guys could clarifiy and maybe list questions I would be fine to entertain them.

Regards,

Gurfateh

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Slightly a bit off topic with the Havan thing but can anybody educated explain the meaning of the following lines Guru Gobind Singh Ji has written in Sri Dasam Granth. I understand that Chandi Maa, and Durga Maa and Kali Mata are all inter-connected in the Holy Goddess Kalika but can someone explain these two lines of Sri Bachittar Natak so i get them. And was Guru Sahib writing his mother = the Goddess Kalika when he was Dusht Daman? Thanks

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਨਮ ਪੂਰਬਲੇ ਹੇਰੇ ॥ ਕਹਿਹੋ ਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਾਕ੍ਰਮ ਤੇਰੇ ॥੪॥

जो जो जनम पूरबले हेरे ॥ कहिहो सु प्रभु पराक्रम तेरे ॥४॥

All the past lives that have peeped into, I shall speak about them with Thy Power.4.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

सरब काल है पिता अपारा ॥ देबि कालिका मात हमारा ॥

He, my Lord is Father and Destroyer of all, the goddess Kalika is my mother.

The above translation is wrong.Guru sahib says that Lord who destroys all is my father.

ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ

In the above line kal and ka are two separate words meaning of kal.Here ਦੇਬਿ does not mean any devi.It means dev or God /akal purakh who is dev of

kal even.

Finally let us desist from posting videov of unread missionaries like dhundha brigade who have neither academic nor spiritual education.

By posting their videos we are promoting them.They are no 1 enemies of sikhi who are detsroying our faith.

In Dasam Granth sahib chandi is primarily used for sri sahib in vaar sri bhagauti ji ki.

Though word devi has been used at some places but one will analyse

that it primarily means akal purakh.For example we get in krishna vatar

a heading " Ath devi ju ki ustat" It does not refer to any eight armed devi

of Hindu faith.It refers to devi of sikh faith and that is akal purakh.Primarily

Guru sahib is saying that akal purakh is everything.

Just as in GGS ji we get

Gurmukh sang krishan murare.

Here krishan is a metaphor.

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The above translation is wrong.Guru sahib says that Lord who destroys all is my father.

ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ

In the above line kal and ka are two separate words meaning of kal.Here ਦੇਬਿ does not mean any devi.It means dev or God /akal purakh who is dev of

kal even.

Finally let us desist from posting videov of unread missionaries like dhundha brigade who have neither academic nor spiritual education.

By posting their videos we are promoting them.

In Dasam Granth sahib chandi is primarily used for sri sahib in vaar sri bhagauti ji ki. Though word devi has been used at some places but one will analyse

that it primarily means akal purakh.

Just as in GGS ji we get

Gurmukh sang krishan marare.

Here krishan is a metaphor.

Thanks for putting the last nail in the coffins of the pretenders.

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I rarly post on SikhSangat (only read stuff) but I have to say that this whole thread is ridiculous

You have a debate going on about the bloodlines of JSinghz and gurudashere, then you have JSinghz jumping in every couple of posts to inform us that SikhReality has been "exposed", and you finally have Only5 who presents an argument but then litters it with personal attacks and claims that Sikhreality is a "fake nihang". This is what's wrong with the Sikh youth of today.

I request that the mods clean it up and leave the worthy posts be so a proper discussion/debate can happen. If you want answers from sikhreality i suggest you treat him like a human first. Even if you are right and he is wrong - your argument/point gets lost/loses significance with all the accusations and horrible language you use against him. I have not seen Sikhreality using any harsh language for you guys in return. At the end of the day it is professionalism that drives the point home.

I don't agree with him on everything either. But if I had the knowledge to debate him i'd do it in a way that didnt make me look like a bander.

Fateh. This will be my first and last post on this thread. Maharaaj Kirpa Karan.

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Heres what sant jarnail Singh says about Kalki/kal-ka

Accept this is not the only explanation but this is as much as I know on this subject

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and you finally have Only5 who presents an argument but then litters it with personal attacks and claims that Sikhreality is a "fake nihang".

It's true hes a fake Nihang. Not one single Nihang Singh to this day has lied to put one respected Taksal against another like the poster Sikhreality tried to do in this thread. He purposely put lies in the mouth of Bhagat ji and wanted other posters to believe him. For this kind of cunning behaviour there is no tolerance. These fake Nihangs have no understanding of Gurbani, absolutely none, hence their minds are being dragged at devis feet.

These fake Nihang Singhs are playing with Sikhs minds. They put Giani or Sant in front of someone's name and then expect rest of the Sikhs to follow every word these fake students of actual Sants said. Actual Nihang Singhs have utmost respect for Sant ji and take him as authority on learning to understand what Gurbani is saying.

In this case a spade needs to be called a spade. If he kept his cunning ways to himself, then i could careless what this phony does or doesn't do.

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The above translation is wrong.Guru sahib says that Lord who destroys all is my father.

ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ

In the above line kal and ka are two separate words meaning of kal.Here ਦੇਬਿ does not mean any devi.It means dev or God /akal purakh who is dev of

kal even.

Finally let us desist from posting videov of unread missionaries like dhundha brigade who have neither academic nor spiritual education.

By posting their videos we are promoting them.They are no 1 enemies of sikhi who are detsroying our faith.

In Dasam Granth sahib chandi is primarily used for sri sahib in vaar sri bhagauti ji ki.

Though word devi has been used at some places but one will analyse

that it primarily means akal purakh.For example we get in krishna vatar

a heading " Ath devi ju ki ustat" It does not refer to any eight armed devi

of Hindu faith.It refers to devi of sikh faith and that is akal purakh.Primarily

Guru sahib is saying that akal purakh is everything.

My interpretation of the line would be as follows:

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

Sarb [All] Kaal [Death] [Pita] Father [Apara] Infinite. [Deb] Dev, meaning Devi, [Kalika] The Fierce Goddess Kali, [Maat] Mother, [Hamara] My/Mine

As per my understanding, Guru Gobind Singh Ji is saying that His Father is the Great All-Death Being, who's end is not found. At the start of Bachitar Natak Guru Gobind Singh Ji goes into the Sargun form of Sarbkaal, describing Sarbkaal in a ferocious [bhayanik] form [saroop] Similarity, then Guru Gobind Singh Ji expresses the Sargun feminine form of the Great Ferocious Sarbkaal, which would be Maata Kaalika, which is a form of the Adi Shakti. In Chandi Di Vaar, Kaalika is a form that came from the third eye of Chandi, who herself is a form of the Adi Shakti. It is easy to just look at the forms and words from a Western mentality, but each form of Adi Shakti had a specific imagery to them, iconography attributed to them, which deep meanings layered behind them. It is easy to just look at Gurbani from a skin level, but when going deep into Gurbani we look at the esoteric meanings, in which the etymology of each word has specific signifance. Needless to say this text was clearly written to inspire Bir Ras [warrior spirit], and using forms of Shiv [sarbkaal] and Devi [Kalika/Chandi] to personify certain qualitys of the Infinite help to draw the reader into a certain mindset invoking specific emotions.

It is easy to label all terms and references for Devtas/Devis as meaning Akal Purkh, even in Adi Guru Granth Sahib it has been done with English translations, but in doing so we lose out on the flavour of the text. Understanding the etymology of key terms gives us a richer understanding when reading it, and may also give us more insight as to the thoughts of the composer when they composed set peice.

If I have offended anyone I apologize, and surely we can continue this discussion respectfully as brothers.

Regards,

Gurfateh

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The line is being presented without what Satguru says next, hence many are getting confused.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

सरब काल है पिता अपारा ॥ देबि कालिका मात हमारा ॥

He, my Lord is Father and Destroyer of all, the goddess Kalika is my mother.

ਮਨੂਆ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਰਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਮੋ ਕੋ ਸੁਭ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਾਈ ॥੫॥

मनूआ गुर मुरि मनसा माई ॥ जिन मो को सुभ क्रिआ पड़्हाई ॥५॥

The mind is my Guru and the discriminating intellect, the Guru`s wife is my mother, who hath taught me all about good deeds.5.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=174

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The line is being presented without what Satguru says next, hence many are getting confused.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

सरब काल है पिता अपारा ॥ देबि कालिका मात हमारा ॥

He, my Lord is Father and Destroyer of all, the goddess Kalika is my mother.

ਮਨੂਆ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਰਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਮੋ ਕੋ ਸੁਭ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਾਈ ॥੫॥

मनूआ गुर मुरि मनसा माई ॥ जिन मो को सुभ क्रिआ पड़्हाई ॥५॥

The mind is my Guru and the discriminating intellect, the Guru`s wife is my mother, who hath taught me all about good deeds.5.

http://www.sridasam....tion=Page&p=174

Care to expand on what the following line means in your interpretation? How does that line clearly show my confusion in the interpretation of the previous line?

Thank you,

Gurfateh

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GPS is correct on saying the reference is made to Akal Purakh. However this can be even further broken down to refer to a specific attribute of Akal Purakh (destroyer) which Satguru is refering to as his mother (to evoke Bir Rass). In no way shape or form is Satguru is saying Devi Kalika is his mother. Also refering to the Guru's wife as his mother is very important to understand the reference made to kalika. Both need to be take as one and not looked at separately. Bachittar Natak is not at all an easy Bani to understand. Just the name itself is confusing enough. In the first line Satguru speaks about the spiritual aspect of who is his father and mother is and then next speaks about the temporal father and mother.

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GPS is correct on saying the reference is made to Akal Purakh. However this can be even further broken down to refer to a specific attribute of Akal Purakh (destroyer) which Satguru is refering to as his mother (to evoke Bir Rass). In no way shape or form is Satguru is saying Devi Kalika is his mother. Also refering to the Guru's wife as his mother is very important to understand the reference made to kalika. Both need to be take as one and not looked at separately. Bachittar Natak is not at all an easy Bani to understand. Just the name itself is confusing enough. In the first line Satguru speaks about the spiritual aspect of who is his father and mother is and then next speaks about the temporal father and mother.

As per my understanding if you have taken the line as second line as literal you have misunderstood the line. Read Rudhar Avatar [a section of Dasam Guru Granth Sahib], specifically the section of Parasnath, where Guru Gobind Singh Ji goes through a war between virtues [guna] and vices [avguna]. In the second line Guru Gobind Singh Ji is saying that Bibek [a discerning intellect] is the wife [feminine trait] is my mother. Bibek however is married to the 'Guru', the highest consciousness, to which Guru Sahib notes as his father. This is not a new thought, this thought has been expounded upon in the story of Parasnaath in Rudhar Avatar, one of the most important passages within Dasam Guru Granth Sahib for understanding Braham Vidiya.

Maharaj has provided both sarguna aspects of his parents in Sarbkaal and Mata Kalika, and then gives an internal understanding to who his father and mother are. Beautiful passage, Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

Regards,

Gurfateh

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Read the next lines and ask yourself are they refering to Satguru in previous life or are they telling us about as the 10th Master?

ਜਬ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨ ਮਯਾ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਮਨੂਆ ਕਹ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸੁਧਾਰੀ ॥

जब मनसा मन मया बिचारी ॥ गुर मनूआ कह कहियो सुधारी ॥

When I (as mind) reflected on the kindness of the discriminating intellect, the Guru0mind uttered his refined statement.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਚਰਿਤ ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਲਹੇ ॥ ਤੇ ਤੇ ਅਬ ਚਹੀਅਤ ਹੈ ਕਹੇ ॥੬॥

जे जे चरित पुरातन लहे ॥ ते ते अब चहीअत है कहे ॥६॥

All the wonderful things that were comprehended by the ancient sages, I want to speak about all of them.6.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਣਾ ਤਬ ਭਰੇ ॥ ਸੇਵਕ ਜਾਨਿ ਦਯਾ ਰਸ ਢਰੇ ॥

सरब काल करणा तब भरे ॥ सेवक जानि दया रस ढरे ॥

Then my Lord, Destroyer of all, was filled with kindness and considering me as His servant, He was gracefully pleased.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਨਮ ਪੂਰਬਲੋ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸੋ ਸਭ ਸਿਮਰਣ ਕਰਿ ਦਯੋ ॥੭॥

जो जो जनम पूरबलो भयो ॥ सो सो सभ सिमरण करि दयो ॥७॥

The births of all the incarnations in the previous ages, He hath caused me to remember all of them.7.

ਮੋ ਕੌ ਇਤੀ ਹੁਤੀ ਕਹ ਸੁਧੰ ॥ ਜਸ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਬੁਧੰ ॥

मो कौ इती हुती कह सुधं ॥ जस प्रभ दई क्रिपा करि बुधं ॥

How could I have all this information? The Lord mercifully gave such intellect.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਤਬ ਭਏ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥ ਲੋਹ ਰਛ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਬ ਕਾਲਾ ॥੮॥

सरब काल तब भए दइआला ॥ लोह रछ हम को सब काला ॥८॥

My Lord, the Destroyer of all, then became Benevolent, At all times, I gave the Protection of at that steel-incarnated Lord.8.

Again very complex Bani, those who want to sit there and take literal word meanings will never understand Bachittar Natak.

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