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This is a shame that people leave out key information from Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Maharaj katha and only present what supports their side. So Sant ji starts the sakhi at 6 minutes into the katha. If you listen carefully you will hear Sant ji say that Giani Gian Singh says that after Satguru completing 16 Ashtapadee, Satguru went to Sri Chand to ask him to say some Bani as you are the older sons of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj................. BUT then you also hear Sant ji say that Samprada say the sakhi in this way (pointing out they have a different version). Here the samprada says that Sri Chand went to Amritsar to get darshan of Amritsar. No where does Sant ji say that Sri Chand went to get Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj darshan. When Sri Chand saw something was going on at Amritsar then he went over and did darshan of Satguru. As Sri Chand is the older son of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj, Satguru recognized Sri Chand and met him with love and then got him to sit down. Here Sri Chand sat down and asked satguru was doing. And the sakhi continues.

Great this sakhi has been presented on this topic. However what does this sakhi say about who started udasis? The Sakhi says abosulately nothing and doesn't add to the thread. I could very easily present Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars where Sant ji says that Sri Chand did not recieve mukti. And this Vaar would not directly add to the thread on who started udasis.

I think some need to brush up on their research skills on how to determine if a certain piece of information is relevant to a certain topic like this topic. Also which sakhi did Sant ji say was true from the two? Sant ji didn't say anything. Just presented both versions. I know its hard for some to stay on Sant ji's word as Sant ji said nothing more than the two versions, but try it once maybe there will be peace for you.

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only 5 veerjee's post and understanding of the udasis is based on Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Jee and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale Jee's interpretation of those scriptures. Then how is only5 jee a protestant? if he is a protestant then so are his sources(Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Jee, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji). Only5 jee has systematically shown that Sant Hari Singh Randhawa Ji is in error in his interpretation and they contradict his own vidya ustaad Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale.

They keep running around in circles presenting the same tuk of Bhai Gurdas ji's pauri, which Sant ji has responded to in another pauri. Singh maybe you can explain this to them.

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal,

Dear all,

Quote "baabae bhaekh banaaeiaa oudhaasee kee reeth chalaaee" is not from the Sikh's Guru.

The true Guru never creates and wears a bhekh nor he starts a tradition (reet).

*****

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.

ਮੰਨੈ ਮਗੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਪੰਥੁ ॥

मंनै मगु न चलै पंथु ॥

Mannai mag na chalai panth. SGGS Ang 3

Strange, some are claiming. Gurdev started Udaasee Panth, Nirmale Panth and other.

Balbir Singh

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only five - i do not wish to defame you, and i respect you for accepting your shortcomings. Now to tell you the truth i dont even understand what the arguement is here, i dont know exactly what the op is about. Can you present in a succint manner such as bullet points about what it is that you have discovered, can you explain what your findings are and what Giani Hari Singh is saying. then i will try with my limited mat to explain what i know and i will also do research on this. End of the day the purpose of this is to juast do veechar.

Chatanga knows of a citation in soraj prakash could you please find it. Remember please do not confuse udasi birthee in your posts like the most venerable pray for truth balbir singh does with udasi samparda

Bhul chuk kima karni

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Guru Sahib wrote Gurbani in such a dynamic way it is very deep and has many different attributing meanings such a vyakarn arth can be different to antrreev arth etc.

Heres my concise arguement in favour of Giani Hari Singh

1. YOU WROTE: First Hari Singh Randhawa says this tuk to back up his theory that Satguru started Udasis:

gur bcnI bwhir Gir eyko nwnku BieAw audwsI ]5]11]

okay i accept that the mukh arth are spiritual arth as Baba Gurbachan Singh has relayed. However it is acceptable to use this as historical arth in an argument postulating that Guru Nanak Ji started Udasi. For example in Dasam Darbar i think its Chandi Ki // Guru Sahib states - Nirbau Bei Nihanga. Now the spiritual arth would be that "they became fearless and without pride." However if you look at the arth from a Sikh History perspective then the arth would become the "nihangs became fearless" or another interpretation " fearless makes you a nihang". Here Nihang refers to the Nihang samparda. So do you see the dynamics of Gurbani. All the arth are acceptable. Therefore Giani Hari Singh use of his first point is still aceptable, whether one diagree's this is his own choice but as a vidvaan's arguement it is acceptable.

2. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa, also uses the following tuk to back up his claim:

bwby ByK bxwieAw audwsI kI rIiq clweI]

my arguement in point 1 also applies to this number 2 so hence he is right to say this aswell.

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3: YOU WROTE :Listening to this katha Sant ji says that Satguru adorned the udasi garb to teach the udasis what it really means to be an udasi. Sant ji gives the example of how Satguru went to Mecca and Satguru adorned the blue garb. Just because Satguru adorned the blue garb of the Muslims doesn’t mean Satguru became a Muslim or started the Muslim religion.

here Sant Gurbachan Singh have made one valid point but that doesn't mean that this is the only point. Do you really think that Guru Sahib left Kartarpur and sent his wife to her fathers home and left his children behind and took on the Udasi Pekh just to teach Udasi's the correct way to be Udas?? No Guru Sahib had other reasons why he did 4 udasia such as to do the kalyaan of sansar and to preach the Gurmat. Guru Sahib came to save us from Kaljug - Kal Taran Gur Nanak Aiyea ( Bhai Gurdas). So what you are saying here is not the only point there are other points which can support what Giani Hari Singh is saying in relation to the the // Baba Bekh Bania Udasee Ki reet chalyee.

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4. YOU WROTE: Nirmal Panth is first mentioned at 4:50 to 6:00. Here Sant ji refers to Sikhi as the Nirmal Panth which Satguru started and where Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj was the second Guru of this Nirmal Panth. In the second version of the above Katha Sant ji makes it even more clear that Satguru is refering to the Khalsa Panth, by saying in farsi this Panth is called Khalsa Panth. But if you listen to Hari Singh Randhawa he distorts Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars and says Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj started the Nirmal Samprada. This is wrong because the Nirmal Samprada, which Hari Singh is refering to, was started by Bhai Daya Singh ji. Then again Hari Singh to confuse the sangat says in the 10th form Satguru increased this Nirmal Panth.

correct me if i am but i think you accept that you was wrong on this, also this has nothing to do with your thread title so lets ignore this. There is no matbhed on this question evrybody accepts that Guru Gobind Singh sent 5 singhs to go to Haridvar and when they cane back Guru Sahib said to them to start your parchar jathebandi.

5. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa also says the Gurus did puja of Sri Chand. Correct me if im wrong and misheard. This is a huge insult to the Gurus by Hari Singh Randhawa. What is Hari Singh’s evidence for this, what is his source? Surely not Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars or Gurbani because both sources tell us that Sri Chand went against Satguru and the former source tells us that Sri Chand could not find liberation.

Your statement above really shows how little knowledge of sikh history you have. 1. Guru Ramdas with his beard kneeled low and wiped the feet of Sri Chand.

2. Sri Chand was requested to add to his fathers scriptures in Sukhmani Sahib. He never added anything of his own he just repeat mool mantar.

3. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji gave their own child to him for the propogation of ther Udasi Samparda.

4. As seen in the JPEG picture i attched before Baba Sri Chand were respected in Sikhism during the Guru's times.

5. To think or believe that Sri Chand didn't achieve mukhti to me this is just so hilarious. Baba Sri were the most highest of highest tapasvee saints. Baba Sri Chand went san deh to sachkhand. Baba Ji took their own physical body with them, they didnt leave their physical body behind. Mukhti was like a little ant roaming around infront of baba sri chand. Again i cant emphasize howe much bhagt they did. Go to Gurdwara Baath Sahib in faridkot district, here babji did 62 years bagti. Baba Ji went to Sachkhan at the ripe age of 152 years. I dont know how people can even dare to think or write that Baba Ji didnt achieve mukhti.

6. YOU WROTE: Does Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars or Gurbani say anywhere that Satguru started udasi or was a udasi? From Sant Ji’s katha, he has made it clear this was not the case at all. Infact Gurbani give us the explanation of what a Udasi and householder is in this Shabad:

Im sure historical granths will clear this point in favour of Giani Hari Singh. Chatanga states there is reference in soraj prakash. i will also reserach into historical books . SO FROM MY ARGUEMENT ABOVE I TOTALLY REFUTE YOUR ARGUEMENTS AND AGREE WITH GIANI HARI SINGH THAT GURU JI STARTED THE UDASI SAMPARDA AS THE GURU'S STARTED ALL OTHER SAMPARDAS ASWELL AND ALSO CREATED THE BIGGEST SAMPARDA IE THE KHALSA BROTHERHOOD.

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Good post pal veer..can you also do vichar on this bhai gurdas ji varan : baabae bhaekh banaaeiaa oudhaasee kee reeth chalaaee|| also post interpretation by sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale as well...i understand it has couple of meanings just like - nanak nirmal panth chalaya but this should diminish all doubts op (onlyfive) have regarding sri guru nanak dev ji starting udasi samparda.

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only five - i do not wish to defame you, and i respect you for accepting your shortcomings. Now to tell you the truth i dont even understand what the arguement is here, i dont know exactly what the op is about. Can you present in a succint manner such as bullet points about what it is that you have discovered, can you explain what your findings are and what Giani Hari Singh is saying. then i will try with my limited mat to explain what i know and i will also do research on this. End of the day the purpose of this is to juast do veechar.

Chatanga knows of a citation in soraj prakash could you please find it. Remember please do not confuse udasi birthee in your posts like the most venerable pray for truth balbir singh does with udasi samparda

Bhul chuk kima karni

does anybody know where Suraj Prakash can be read online? The version on searchgurbani is not very good.

I could very easily present Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars where Sant ji says that Sri Chand did not recieve mukti.

Does Bhai Gurdas Ji actually write that?

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