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Is the crux of the issue for those stating that Sri Chand did not receive mukhti due to a flaw in their character or was it because they were not a Gursikh?

Very interesting topic, btw. Let's keep it civil though as has been the case so far. :cool2:

The way I see it and believe is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji didn't start Udasis as Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaara say something completely different.

Another point is that Giani Hari Singh Randhawe says something that contradicts Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale in his katha of what Nirmal Panth is.

A point I made in the last topic is this:

At around 7 minutes Baba Hari SIngh Randawe says that if you want to insult someone, you say something along the lines of: "You are a very good person but your allaud (offspring) is worthless and couldn't be helped". Baba Hari Singh Randhawe goes on to say that Guru Nanak Dev Ji could fix the mindset of low people, then SriChand was a big deal?

It's important to note that Guru Har Rai Ji disowned his elder son, Ram Rai, for distorting bani to please Aurangzeb. There's a reason why Gurtagaddi was passed to Guru Angad Dev Ji.

My personal take is I will respect Baba Sri Chand, but I will see the truth for what it is and won't accept bending of the truth. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe said that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the Udasian da Panth, but this is incorrect and Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Varan say otherwise and so does Bhatt Satta and Balavand bani from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Also, I believe that Nirmal Panth is no more than the Khalsa Panth, not a separate entity as Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale has said in the katha.

This Shabad is by Bhatt Sathaa & Balvand in Raag Raamkalee on Pannaa 966

lhxy dI PyrweIAY nwnkw dohI KtIAY ]

joiq Ehw jugiq swie sih kwieAw Pyir pltIAY ]

JulY su Cqu inrMjnI mil qKqu bYTw gur htIAY ]

krih ij gur PurmwieAw isl jogu AlUxI ctIAY ]

lµgru clY gur sbid hir qoit n AwvI KtIAY ]

Krcy idiq KsMm dI Awp KhdI KYir dbtIAY ]

hovY isPiq KsMm dI nUru Arshu kurshu JtIAY ]

quDu ifTy scy pwiqswh mlu jnm jnm dI ktIAY ]

scu ij guir PurmwieAw ikau eydU bolhu htIAY ]

puqRI kaulu n pwilE kir pIrhu kMn@ murtIAY ]

idil KotY AwkI iPrin@ bMin@ Bwru aucwiein@ CtIAY ]

ijin AwKI soeI kry ijin kIqI iqnY QtIAY ]

kauxu hwry ikin auvtIAY ]2] Nanak proclaimed Lehna's succession - he earned it.

They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body.

The immaculate canopy waves over Him, and He sits on the throne in the Guru's shop.

He does as the Guru commands; He tasted the tasteless stone of Yoga.

The Langar - the Kitchen of the Guru's Shabad has been opened, and its supplies never run short.

Whatever His Master gave, He spent; He distributed it all to be eaten.

The Praises of the Master were sung, and the Divine Light descended from the heavens to the earth.

Gazing upon You, O True King, the filth of countless past lives is washed away.

The Guru gave the True Command; why should we hesitate to proclaim this?

His sons did not obey His Word; they turned their backs on Him as Guru.

These evil-hearted ones became rebellious; they carry loads of sin on their backs.

Whatever the Guru said, Lehna did, and so he was installed on the throne.

Who has lost, and who has won? ||2||

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SINGH559

Another point is that Giani Hari Singh Randhawe says something that contradicts Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale in his katha of what Nirmal Panth is.

A point I made in the last topic is this:

Quote

At around 7 minutes Baba Hari SIngh Randawe says that if you want to insult someone, you say something along the lines of: "You are a very good person but your allaud (offspring) is worthless and couldn't be helped". Baba Hari Singh Randhawe goes on to say that Guru Nanak Dev Ji could fix the mindset of low people, then SriChand was a big deal?

It's important to note that Guru Har Rai Ji disowned his elder son, Ram Rai, for distorting bani to please Aurangzeb. There's a reason why Gurtagaddi was passed to Guru Angad Dev Ji.

THIS DOESNT MAKE SENSE PLEASE REVISE YOUR STATEMENT. ALSO COULD YOU KINDLY EXPLAIN THE SATTA BALWAND BANI AND ITS MEANING IN RELATION TO UDASIS

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6 minutes ^^

"Je kisse izzat daar purakh di besti karni

ohnooo keho "sardara tu ta bohut changa teri tan jinni vadiyayeee par teri alaud bardi nakkami jamm payi, teri alaud ni suddar sakki, bas ohdi besti kar ditti"

meaning

"If you want to disgrace an honorable individual, tell him "Oh Sardara, you are very great and whatever good there is applies to you, but your kids are worthless and they couldn't be disciplined", you just disgraced him"

which is why I said this:

"It's important to note that Guru Har Rai Ji disowned his elder son, Ram Rai, for distorting bani to please Aurangzeb. There's a reason why Gurtagaddi was passed to Guru Angad Dev Ji."

I am no Giani ji, just an average Sikh so I can't explain the Gurbani, but I think it is relevant and sheds light here.

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Is the crux of the issue for those stating that Sri Chand did not receive mukhti due to a flaw in their character or was it because they were not a Gursikh?

Not limited to this topic or its posters, but for overall mainstream sikhs - crux of the issue is bit of both but more on side of- oh baba sri chand didn't follow sikhi based on modern standard definition of gurmukh or gursikh which is totally against sufi type sikhi which modern thought totally despise because as i said its all about controlling like minded sheeps and herding them in any direction they like to maintain power and control, when samparda's like damdami taksal (bridge between puratan and mainstream sikhi) accept udasi as sikhs and do satkar of baba sri chand as bhramgyani sadhu it bugs the hell out of them as it takes away their control of like minded sheeps and their protestant sikhi ..!!!!

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Guru Sahib wrote Gurbani in such a dynamic way it is very deep and has many different attributing meanings such a vyakarn arth can be different to antrreev arth etc.

Heres my concise arguement in favour of Giani Hari Singh

1. YOU WROTE: First Hari Singh Randhawa says this tuk to back up his theory that Satguru started Udasis:

gur bcnI bwhir Gir eyko nwnku BieAw audwsI ]5]11]

okay i accept that the mukh arth are spiritual arth as Baba Gurbachan Singh has relayed. However it is acceptable to use this as historical arth in an argument postulating that Guru Nanak Ji started Udasi. For example in Dasam Darbar i think its Chandi Ki // Guru Sahib states - Nirbau Bei Nihanga. Now the spiritual arth would be that "they became fearless and without pride." However if you look at the arth from a Sikh History perspective then the arth would become the "nihangs became fearless" or another interpretation " fearless makes you a nihang". Here Nihang refers to the Nihang samparda. So do you see the dynamics of Gurbani. All the arth are acceptable. Therefore Giani Hari Singh use of his first point is still aceptable, whether one diagree's this is his own choice but as a vidvaan's arguement it is acceptable.

Again listen to the katha the guy was asking Satguru if he was a yogi etc and Sant ji is doing the historical arth along with the spiritual arth. The fact of the matter is Satguru gave a spiritual answer, where he says my jeevan is udasi, yogi etc (i'm the lotus; householder and udasi at the same time). So the historical part is when the guy is asking who Satguru is in garb, a yogi udasi etc. To this historical reference Satguru gives a spiritual answer, which Sant ji tells us.

2. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa, also uses the following tuk to back up his claim:

bwby ByK bxwieAw audwsI kI rIiq clweI]

my arguement in point 1 also applies to this number 2 so hence he is right to say this aswell.

No it can't because Sant ji in the same Vaar 1 in a different pauri explains that Satguru in the historical arth took off the udasi garb just like how it put on the Muslim blue garb to go to Mecca. So either you accept Sant ji's historical arth or you say Sant ji is wrong and Hari Singh Randhawa is right. You can't have it both ways.

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3: YOU WROTE :Listening to this katha Sant ji says that Satguru adorned the udasi garb to teach the udasis what it really means to be an udasi. Sant ji gives the example of how Satguru went to Mecca and Satguru adorned the blue garb. Just because Satguru adorned the blue garb of the Muslims doesn’t mean Satguru became a Muslim or started the Muslim religion.

here Sant Gurbachan Singh have made one valid point but that doesn't mean that this is the only point. Do you really think that Guru Sahib left Kartarpur and sent his wife to her fathers home and left his children behind and took on the Udasi Pekh just to teach Udasi's the correct way to be Udas?? No Guru Sahib had other reasons why he did 4 udasia such as to do the kalyaan of sansar and to preach the Gurmat. Guru Sahib came to save us from Kaljug - Kal Taran Gur Nanak Aiyea ( Bhai Gurdas). So what you are saying here is not the only point there are other points which can support what Giani Hari Singh is saying in relation to the the // Baba Bekh Bania Udasee Ki reet chalyee.

Your argument is trying to scare a person in believing their are different reasons to take up udasi. I can switch this very easily on you and say do you really think Satguru just put on a Muslim blue garb to leave behind his wife and children to teach Muslims in Mecca. Remember Mecca is much further and the journey was much longer. So there must be different reasons why he went to Mecca. Just like you and Hari Singh Randhawa i can make up theories saying......ooooo Satguru didn't just dress up as a Muslim, but was a Muslim. Then to add reason to my arguement i can say Muslim means to completely submit to Allah. Therefore Satguru was a Muslim of the Koran because he completely submit to Allah (call God whatever you want, there is only one) and the Koran teaches to completely submit to Allah.

So Benti, leave your scare tactics out of this discussion. Maybe these scare tactics work with other Sikhs, but they won't work here. I am satisfied with Sant ji's answer. Satguru went out to teach Gurmat as udasis were practicing and teaching manmat to others (same goes for Muslims). I know you are not satisfied because then Hari SIngh Randhawa would be proven wrong. I have no desire to prove anyone wrong or prove them right. I accept Sant ji as a true teacher of Gurbani. If you don't that is your choice and wish.

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katha on bhai gurdas di vars - hopefully well get to the bottom of this soon. Guru Fateh

http://www.gurmatvee...t_Singh_Parwana

also Baba Gurbachan Singh;s katha is not necessarily a complete explanation as this katha was not intended to be a complete katha of babaji's knowledge. The katha was done spontaneously when they were jatherdar head of the chaldi vaheer. Remeber babji did 23 kathas of gurbani...its possible everty katha was a bit different some with more edpth some with less. Therefore historical granths have more validity than baba jis katha

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4. YOU WROTE: Nirmal Panth is first mentioned at 4:50 to 6:00. Here Sant ji refers to Sikhi as the Nirmal Panth which Satguru started and where Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj was the second Guru of this Nirmal Panth. In the second version of the above Katha Sant ji makes it even more clear that Satguru is refering to the Khalsa Panth, by saying in farsi this Panth is called Khalsa Panth. But if you listen to Hari Singh Randhawa he distorts Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars and says Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj started the Nirmal Samprada. This is wrong because the Nirmal Samprada, which Hari Singh is refering to, was started by Bhai Daya Singh ji. Then again Hari Singh to confuse the sangat says in the 10th form Satguru increased this Nirmal Panth.

correct me if i am but i think you accept that you was wrong on this, also this has nothing to do with your thread title so lets ignore this. There is no matbhed on this question evrybody accepts that Guru Gobind Singh sent 5 singhs to go to Haridvar and when they cane back Guru Sahib said to them to start your parchar jathebandi.

No you did not understand what i would admit to being wrong. The tuk Hari SIngh Randhawa presented to back up Satguru started Nirmal Samprada is a distortion of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars as Sant ji points out that the tuk is calling the Khalsa Panth as the Nirmal Panth. The historical arth have been done correctly by Sant ji. Anything beyond this is a distortion of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars.

Your other points will be answered later. Don't have the time right now to go through them.

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